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Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,10:14) Yes, we are. But we then repent and give our life to Christ. How do we know what is sin after that point? You say sin is transgression of the law, but yet you deny that Christians have anything to do with the law. How do you reconcile these conflicting views?
Not backing up WJ, but thought I would add that sin is falling short of God's glory and anything that is not of faith.So something might not be against the law, but is it of faith?
E.g., giving to the poor is not against the law and is not counted as a transgression from what I can tell, but if you did it to be seen by men, then was it of faith?
So the law doesn't go deep enough and it was made for the sinner anyway. If we are redeemed, then God sees our motives and expects us to keep the spirit of the law.
E.g., Matthew 5:43-44
43 “You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,In other words he was sort of saying that the law went this far, but I go further. Christ even held this against the Pharisees. They didn't keep the spirit of the law.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 10 2007,22:30) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,10:14) Yes, we are. But we then repent and give our life to Christ. How do we know what is sin after that point? You say sin is transgression of the law, but yet you deny that Christians have anything to do with the law. How do you reconcile these conflicting views?
Not backing up WJ, but thought I would add that sin is falling short of God's glory and anything that is not of faith.So something might not be against the law, but is it of faith?
E.g., giving to the poor is not against the law and is not counted as a transgression from what I can tell, but if you did it to be seen by men, then was it of faith?
So the law doesn't go deep enough and it was made for the sinner anyway. If we are redeemed, then God sees our motives and expects us to keep the spirit of the law.
Congratulations t8. You're now thinking like a true Christian. Why else would Yeshua say he came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it? He came to make its understanding complete! He came to show us that it is not the letter but the intention? What leads us to break the Law? It starts with intent, and Yeshua taught that we need to be concerned about the intent of our heart. And that is why God's Law is now written on our hearts.Quote E.g., Matthew 5:43-44
43 “You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,In other words he was sort of saying that the law went this far, but I go further. Christ even held this against the Pharisees. They didn't keep the spirit of the law.
Bingo! And what you have said supports all Yeshua did. But did he abolish the Law? Nope. He made it complete.Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.Look outside your window. Heaven and earth pass away yet? Well, guess Yeshua is telling you that the Law is still in effect. Only the administration has changed because he is forever more our High Priest. We need no other mediator!
Hey all,
Two mainstream Christian beliefs are warned against in one passage in the OT, and that is one of the reasons Jews continue to reject Yeshua as the Messiah. The problem is, these beliefs did not come from the Savior himself, but from those who followed. These two beliefs are (1) the Trinity and (2) abolishment of the Law. Neither of these beliefs were espoused by Yeshua, yet mainstream Christianity DOES believe them to be true. Here is the warning to the children of Israel:
Deu 13:1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'
Deu 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 “[You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.Thus, the Jesus of mainstream Christianity says “let's go after another God (Trinity) and the Law is abolished”. As you can see, this passage opposes both of those ideas, and it will be the reason most Jews will continue to deny that Yeshua was the Messiah.
But did Yeshua actually say let's go after other gods? From the ESV
Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'”
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
And as to telling others not to follow God's commandments, did he ever really do that?
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
So, it is not the Yeshua one sees in the Bible that is being warned against in Deu 13:1-4, but the Jesus of mainstream Christianity. That Jesus will never be accepted by a Torah observant Jew.
Just some food for thought.
LG&LP,
KevinKevin,
You are doing a great work here. Thank you for sharing things as quickly as you are learning them!
I check this site daily, and I study daily. What you are finding and bringing here is an awesome companion to my own study – thank you!Kejonn
You say…
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Two mainstream Christian beliefs are warned against in one passage in the OT, and that is one of the reasons Jews continue to reject Yeshua as the Messiah.This is an ambiguous statement and is pure speculation and with no scriptural basis at all, but is simply your opinion.
To blame mainstream Christianity as one of the reasons the Jews reject Christ is not found in the scriptures. In fact, the Jews rejected Jesus and crucified him before they knew of the Trinity. The gentiles did not crucify Yeshua the messiah, neither did they hinder the Jews from believing in him.
You say…
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The problem is, these beliefs did not come from the Savior himself, but from those who followed. These two beliefs are (1) the Trinity and (2) abolishment of the Law. Neither of these beliefs were espoused by Yeshua, yet mainstream Christianity DOES believe them to be true. Here is the warning to the children of Israel:
Deu 13:1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'
Deu 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 “[You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.First of all there is no word “trinity” found in the scriptures you read. So you are merely reading into the text what you want. Secondly, you apparently do not understand the definition of “Abolish” for it looks like you think it means “destroy”. No believer or Trinitarian believes Jesus came to destroy the Law for Yeshua plainly says he did no come to destroy but to “Fulfill”.
abolish
1 : to end the observance or effect of
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/abolishmentThis fits beautifully as to what has happened in Christ.
Kejonn, you say we should still observe part of the letter of the law, at least I think you are because you are not saying we should keep the feast. Then are we supposed to observe the effect of the law also.
In other words if it is the same and has not been brought into a higher law, “The law of the Spirit of life” in Christ Jesus, then when someone commits adultery should they be put to death? This was the effect of the law, the letter. Or when they break the physical Sabbath should they be put to death? If you are gonna keep the letter of the law then you should keep the effect of it when it is not obeyed.You say…
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Thus, the Jesus of mainstream Christianity says “let's go after another God (Trinity) and the Law is abolished”. As you can see, this passage opposes both of those ideas, and it will be the reason most Jews will continue to deny that Yeshua was the Messiah.You apparently have not accepted the definition of the “New Covenant” and what it means.
Here is the reason why the Jews to this day have not received Yeshua as the Messiah…
2 Cor 3:
3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4Such (I)confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but (J)our adequacy is from God,
6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of he letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12(T)Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;This is the reason kejonn, its because they don’t accept the NT scriptures without the word trinity, nor the New Covenant nor the son of God.
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.What is the liberty from kejonn? Its liberty from the “Letter” that kills.
13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
NASB renders the word “Abolished” as fading away. The greek word for “Abolished” is ‘katargeō; which means;
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, powerIt’s the same Greek word found in the following…
Eph 2:
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 Having “abolished” in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace, Jews and gentiles alike.So your argument that its because of the trinity and the “aboloshing of the law” that Jews have not come to Messiah is fallacious because the veil is still over their face which was there when they crucified the Lord.
Now I could make the argument that it is those who believe that Jesus is just a mere man or a Son of God like we are is to be blamed for not taking the message to them.
You say…
Quote But did Yeshua actually say let's go after other gods? From the ESV
Mat
4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'”Mat 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
kejonn, you are not making a non-trinitarian argument here. You may think you are.If anything it is the “Unitarians” and the Henotheist and Arains that have the problem of serving more than one god. You yourself believes Jesus is some sort of “a god”. For you do not believe that he is 100% a man like we are, but you believe he is something between, or something other than a man like we are. For you have used the term “Monogenes” the only one, the Unique Son of God. If he is “a god” to you (for he must be because the scriptures call him God), then you find yourself bowing down to and serving another “god”. I have heard Unitarians say Jesus is the “God” of the New creation. Is this what you believe kejonn?
Further more you say you have a “Saviour” named Yeshua who is not God yet the scriptures clearly state there is “No saviour” but God. You can reason it away by saying because God made Jesus our Saviour then God is our saviour also. Well the problem with that is you have 2 Savours now not one and God says 'there is none beside him”.
And how does your theology fit in the following…
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me* there is no saviour.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.
Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and **beside me there is no God**.You say…
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And as to telling others not to follow God's commandments, did he ever really do that?
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
First of all Jesus had not fulfilled the law yet. So the New Covenant of the “Spirit of Life” the higher law had not been introduced yet, nor had the Spirit been given yet. When Jesus said “It is finished” he fulfilled all the Law and nailed to the cross the handwriting of ordinances aganst us.
The thing is kejonn if you don’t think this to be true then why not keep all the commandments and not relaxe any? If we are goinna hold to the letter of the law then we should do these…
Exod 35:1
And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them
2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.According to this commandment you should not cook on the Sabbath and if you break it you are to be put to death.
Exod 23:
10″ You shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield,
11but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.
12″(N)Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves.
13″Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth.Anybody do any farming or gardening?
Exod 23:
14″Three times a year you shall celebrate a feast to Me.
15″You shall observe Âthe Feast of Unleavened Bread; for seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the month Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt And none shall appear before Me empty-handed.
16″Also you shall observe the Feast of the Harvest of the first fruits of your labors from what you sow in the field; also the Feast of the Ingathering at the end of the year when you gather in the fruit of your labors from the field.
17″Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord GOD.
18″You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread; nor is the fat of My feast to remain overnight until morning.
19″You shall bring the choice first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God “You are not to boil a young goat in the milk of its mother.How many Sabbatarians keep the feast.
Lev 15:
19'When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.
20'Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean.
21'Anyone who touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.
22'Whoever touches any thing on which she sits shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.
23'Whether it be on the bed or on the thing on which she is sitting, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening.How many law keepers do this?
Lev 19:19
19'You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; )you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.So much for dressing with cotton shirts and silk ties.
Lev 19:27
27' You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.So much for shaving.
Lev 19:30
'You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD.Keep the “Sabbaths” not just the 7th day.
Lev 19:32
32 'You shall rise up before the grayheaded and honor the aged, and you shall revere your God; I am the LORD.If you are a late sleeper or have a second shift Job you are in trouble.
Lev 20:9
9' If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.Don’t forget to put to death those who curse their Father and Mother.
Lev 24:
19' If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him:
20 fracture for
fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him.Don’t forget to break your neighbors face if he breaks yours.
Lev 24:2323Then Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, and they brought the one who had cursed outside the camp and stoned him with stones. Thus the sons of Israel did, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Lev 25:
10'You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.
11'You shall have the fiftieth year as a jubilee; you shall not sow, nor reap its aftergrowth, nor gather in from its untrimmed vines.So when is the last time the Sabbath keepers kept the year of Jubilee?
This is only a few.
None of the commandments I have mentioned above have anything to do with salvation or the sacrifices or justification by faith.
These are the commandments of God.
So my question again is…
“Are these the commandments Jesus is speaking of and if so and they are not fulfilled in him, then are we as Christians to keep them all?Lev 19:37
“You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the LORD.'”
You say…
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So, it is not the Yeshua one sees in the Bible that is being warned against in Deu 13:1-4, but the Jesus of mainstream Christianity. That Jesus will never be accepted by a Torah observant Jew.Sorry, your opinion no proof of such.
Why do you ignore the 2 Covenants.
Tell you what, you explain to me what the following scriptures mean to you and I will not say anything else about it but will let those who read it judge.
Paul says…
3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that **continueth not in all things** which are written in the book of the law to do them.
3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith
Then he says…
3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
then later on Paul clarifys this life or “new man”, and the living out of this new life.
5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(I cant figure out how keeping the physical Sabbath would have anything to do with loving my neighbor)5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Men who are trying to follow the law in order to be folowing the Spirit have the cart before the horse. We are to follow the Spirit of truth who will lead us and guide us by unfolding the scriptures as Jesus did to the disciples on the road to Emmaus and the Spirit will quicken our mortal bodies which are not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be.
Rom 10:
2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.2 Cor 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of *the letter* but of the Spirit; for the *letter kills*, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, *in letters engraved on stones*, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?Gal 4:
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, (AB)one by the bondwoman and (AC)one by the free woman.
23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30 But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman
Blessings
15 Having “abolished” in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace, Jews and gentiles alike.
I believe the Commandments of God were contained in the ARK
Notice “the law of commandments” NOT Commandments of God.
Paul said he served the law of God. The law of God is the Law God wrote in stone and latter in the “new Covenant” written on our heart and mind NOT in “ordinances” which were nailed to the cross Col.2 :14-16.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
WJ could it just be possible that all of the scriptures that say “keep His Commandments ” are truth and you may be deceived by the RCC?
Come out of her MY PEOPLE.
kenrch,Oct. wrote:Quote 15 Having “abolished” in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace, Jews and gentiles alike. I believe the Commandments of God were contained in the ARK
Notice “the law of commandments” NOT Commandments of God.
Paul said he served the law of God. The law of God is the Law God wrote in stone and latter in the “new Covenant” written on our heart and mind NOT in “ordinances” which were nailed to the cross Col.2 :14-16.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
WJ could it just be possible that all of the scriptures that say “keep His Commandments ” are truth and you may be deceived by the RCC?
Come out of her MY PEOPLE.
kenrchHi all!
Are the Commandments of God and the Laws of God the Same?
Lev 7:
[35] This is the portion of the anointing of Aaron, and of the anointing of his sons, out of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, in the day when he presented them to minister unto the LORD in the priest's office;
[36] Which the LORD commanded to be given them of the children of Israel, in the day that he anointed them, by a statute for ever throughout their generations.
[37] This is the law of the burnt offering, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings;
[38] Which the LORD commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai.Looks like commandments to me!
Lev 8:
31] And Moses said unto Aaron and to his sons, Boil the flesh at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and there eat it with the bread that is in the basket of consecrations, as I commanded, saying, Aaron and his sons shall eat it.
[32] And that which remaineth of the flesh and of the bread shall ye burn with fire.
[33] And ye shall not go out of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end: for seven days shall he consecrate you.
[34] As he hath done this day, so the LORD hath commanded to do, to make an atonement for you.
[35] Therefore shall ye abide at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days, and keep the charge of the LORD, that ye die not: for so I am commanded.
[36] So Aaron and his sons did all things which the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.Looks like commandments to me!
Lev 27
[30] And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
[31] And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
[32] And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
[33] He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.
[34] These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.Looks like commandments to me!!!
All these Laws/commandments were given to moses on Mt Sinai.
The Covenant From Sinai Abolished nailed to the tree!
Gal. 4:21-31
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, and the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh, but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the Mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar…. But Jerusalem which is above is free which is the mother of us all…. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born of the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the freeWhich things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the **Mount Sinai**, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar…. But Jerusalem which is above is free which is the mother of us all
You have no scripture saying the “Ten Commandments is all Jesus and the Apostles were speaking of!
Purely man made opinion and speculation!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2007,11:53) kenrch,Oct. wrote:Quote 15 Having “abolished” in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace, Jews and gentiles alike. I believe the Commandments of God were contained in the ARK
Notice “the law of commandments” NOT Commandments of God.
Paul said he served the law of God. The law of God is the Law God wrote in stone and latter in the “new Covenant” written on our heart and mind NOT in “ordinances” which were nailed to the cross Col.2 :14-16.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
WJ could it just be possible that all of the scriptures that say “keep His Commandments ” are truth and you may be deceived by the RCC?
Come out of her MY PEOPLE.
kenrchHi all!
Are the Commandments of God and the Laws of God the Same?
Lev 7:
[35] This is the portion of the anointing of Aaron, and of the anointing of his sons, out of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, in the day when he presented them to minister unto the LORD in the priest's office;
[36] Which the LORD commanded to be given them of the children of Israel, in the day that he anointed them, by a statute for ever throughout their generations.
[37] This is the law of the burnt offering, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings;
[38] Which the LORD commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai.Looks like commandments to me!
Lev 8:
31] And Moses said unto Aaron and to his sons, Boil the flesh at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and there eat it with the bread that is in the basket of consecrations, as I commanded, saying, Aaron and his sons shall eat it.
[32] And that which remaineth of the flesh and of the bread shall ye burn with fire.
[33] And ye shall not go out of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end: for seven days shall he consecrate you.
[34] As he hath done this day, so the LORD hath commanded to do, to make an atonement for you.
[35] Therefore shall ye abide at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days, and keep the charge of the LORD, that ye die not: for so I am commanded.
[36] So Aaron and his sons did all things which the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.Looks like commandments to me!
Lev 27
[30] And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
[31] And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
[32] And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
[33] He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.
[34] These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.Looks like commandments to me!!!
All these Laws/commandments were given to moses on Mt Sinai.
The Covenant From Sinai Abolished nailed to the tree!
Gal. 4:21-31
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, and the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh, but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the Mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar…. But Jerusalem which is above is free which is the mother of us all…. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born of the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the freeWhich things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the **Mount Sinai**, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar…. But Jerusalem which is above is free which is the mother of us all
You have no scripture saying the “Ten Commandments is all Jesus and the Apostles were speaking of!
Purely man made opinion and speculation!
How many Commandments did God write:Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded
thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.
Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.God wrote TEN Commandments and added NO MORE.
Where were the Ten Commandments placed?
Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.Where were the laws given to Moses to write placed?
Deu 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.
Did God get writers cramp so HE told Moses to finish writing the law?
WJ are you saying that you reject and will not keep the forth commandment of God?
WJ,
Actually, none of it is merely my opinion. From http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_messiah3.htm
C. TORAH OBSERVANCE
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)A. GOD AS THREE?
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE” (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry — one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.B. MAN AS GOD?
Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the “Guide for the Perplexed” to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: “God is not a mortal” (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides – Laws of Kings 11:3)Next, from http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishviewofjesus/a/jesus_nobel.htm (I will paste only the section titles and a few sentences to save space; visit the link for more info)
A. The Torah as a Contract
The Torah (the Five books of Moses, i.e. Genesis through Deuteronomy), which constitutes the basis of Jewish Law and the prophecy of Moshe Rabeinu (Moses our teacher), tells us in several places that it is also an “Everlasting Covenant” between Israel and the All Mighty.C. There Have Been Many “New Covenants,” But None Has or Can Replace the Torah
The Covenant at Mt. Sinai was not the first, nor the last covenant between G-d and the Jewish people. See, e.g. Gen. 8 (with Noah); Gen. 17 (with Abraham); Gen. 28:10-22 (with Jacob); Joshua 1 (with Jews who entered Israel). In every case, the prior covenant was not replaced, but merely reaffirmed, expanded or codified existing practice. Not one of those covenants is or has ever been “obsolete.” Yet, missionaries claim that the Torah — G-d's Covenant with the Jewish people as a whole — has been superceded by a “New Covenant” and replaced by a “New Testament.” Hebrews 8:13.II. Judaism believes in One G-d.
A. G-d is One.
As every Jewish child learns, “Shema Yisroel, HaShem Elokeynu, HaShem Echad” (“Hear or Israel, the Lord is G-d, the Lord is One”). Deut. 6:4. This is a very simple and fundamental concept. G-d is One.
B. The Trinity.
Christians give lip service to the Shema, but their theology says that there is a Trinity — G-d, Jesus (the “son of G-d”) and the “Holy Ghost.” They will try to teach you that this Trinity of three entities is really just one, like a “bunch of grapes” is one. But the Torah is very precise in its language. Throughout the Torah if echad is to be applied to a bunch of something, the word “agudat,” or a form of the word, would be used.
Next from http://www.beliefnet.com/story/28/story_2892_1.html
There is reason to believe Jesus himself was a staunch upholder of the law. That which defined early Christianity, the rejection of Mosaic law, may not have been Jesus' intention at all. As Jesus says, “Think not that I have come to abolish the Torah and the Prophets. I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For I truly say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5).
I would also suggest you check out http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html. The trinity is covered as a reason to reject Jesus. Finally, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus
In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is considered a deviation from strict monotheism and is akin to polytheism.[5] According to Judaic beliefs, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): “Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one.” See also Shema Yisrael.
In the 12th century, the preeminent Jewish scholar Maimonides elucidated the core principles of Judaism, writing “[God], the Cause of all, is one. This does not mean one as in one of a pair, nor one like a species (which encompasses many individuals), nor one as in an object that is made up of many elements, nor as a single simple object that is infinitely divisible. Rather, God is a unity unlike any other possible unity.”[7]
Additionally, there are two types of “false prophet” recognized in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh): the one who claims to be a prophet in the name of idolatry, and the one who claims to be a prophet in the name of the God of Israel, but declares that any word or commandment (mitzvah) which God has said no longer applies, or makes false statements in the name of God.[18] As Judaism believes that God's word is true eternally, one who claims to speak in God's name but diverges in any way from what God himself has said, logically cannot be inspired by divine authority. Deuteronomy 13:1 states simply, “All this which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 12 2007,12:17) WJ, Actually, none of it is merely my opinion. From http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_messiah3.htm
C. TORAH OBSERVANCE
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)A. GOD AS THREE?
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE” (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry — one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.B. MAN AS GOD?
Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the “Guide for the Perplexed” to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: “God is not a mortal” (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides – Laws of Kings 11:3)Next, from http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishviewofjesus/a/jesus_nobel.htm (I will paste only the section titles and a few sentences to save space; visit the link for more info)
A. The Torah as a Contract
The Torah (the Five books of Moses, i.e. Genesis through Deuteronomy), which constitutes the basis of Jewish Law and the prophecy of Moshe Rabeinu (Moses our teacher), tells us in several places that it is also an “Everlasting Covenant” between Israel and the All Mighty.C. There Have Been Many “New Covenants,” But None Has or Can Replace the Torah
The Covenant at Mt. Sinai was not the first, nor the last covenant between G-d and the Jewish people. See, e.g. Gen. 8 (with Noah); Gen. 17 (with Abraham); Gen. 28:10-22 (with Jacob); Joshua 1 (with Jews who entered Israel). In every case, the prior covenant was not replaced, but merely reaffirmed, expanded or codified existing practice. Not one of those covenants is or has ever been “obsolete.” Yet, missionaries claim that the Torah — G-d's Covenant with the Jewish people as a whole — has been superceded by a “New Covenant” and replaced by a “New Testament.” Hebrews 8:13.II. Judaism believes in One G-d.
A. G-d is One.
As every Jewish child learns, “Shema Yisroel, HaShem Elokeynu, HaShem Echad” (“Hear or Israel, the Lord is G-d, the Lord is One”). Deut. 6:4. This is a very simple and fundamental concept. G-d is One.
B. The Trinity.
Christians give lip service to the Shema, but their theology says that there is a Trinity — G-d, Jesus (the “son of G-d”) and the “Holy Ghost.” They will try to teach you that this Trinity of three entities is really just one, like a “bunch of grapes” is one. But the Torah is very precise in its language. Throughout the Torah if echad is to be applied to a bunch of something, the word “agudat,” or a form of the word, would be used.
Next from http://www.beliefnet.com/story/28/story_2892_1.html
There is reason to believe Jesus himself was a staunch upholder of the law. That which defined early Christianity, the rejection of Mosaic law, may not have been Jesus' intention at all. As Jesus says, “Think not that I have come to abolish the Torah and the Prophets. I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For I truly say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5).
I would also suggest you check out http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html. The trinity is covered as a reason to reject Jesus. Finally, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus
In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is considered a deviation from strict monotheism and is akin to polytheism.[5] According to Judaic beliefs, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): “Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one.” See also Shema Yisrael.
In the 12th century, the preeminent Jewish scholar Maimonides elucidated the core principles of Judaism, writing “[God], the Cause of all, is one. This does not mean one as in one of a pair, nor one like a species (which encompasses many individuals), nor one as in an object that is made up of many elements, nor as a single simple object that is infinitely divisible. Rather, God is a unity unlike any other possible unity.”[7]
Additionally, there are two types of “false prophet” recognized in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh): the one who claims to be a prophet in the name of idolatry, and the one who claims to be a prophet in the name of the God of Israel, but declares that any word or commandment (mitzvah) which God has said no longer applies, or makes false statements in the name of God.[18] As Judaism believes that God's word is true eternally, one who claims to speak in God's name but diverges in any way from what God himself has said, logically cannot be inspired by divine authority. Deuteronomy 13:1 states simply, “All this which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
kejonnThe links you give are not proof why the Jews do not accept the Messiah.
How about these sights where Messianic Jews claim the Lord Jesus as messiah!
http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/messianic-jew.htm
(Believes Jesus is God)http://jewsforjesus.org/
(Believes in the trinity)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus
http://www.forjewsforjesus.org/
(Trinitarian)So w
hy dont you get some of your views about the Jews from Jewish Christians and see if they believe the way you do about “Mainstream Christianity” from the above?I gave you scriptures as to why they do not accept him,
and you would rather believe and promote the beliefs of unbelievers and antagonist who dont even accept Christ as their Messiah.WJ,
Yes, I list the reason why unbelieving Jews will not believe. Doesn't that make sense? Is that not the issue? There are other reasons they reject him of course, but the overwhelming theme I see from unbelieving Jews is the concept of the trinity and the supposed abolishment of the Law. Two things that aren't biblically true!
Why should I find out from Christians why unbelieving Jews do not believe in the Messiah? Isn't that a fallacy? If I want to find out why many Jews do not want to believe, would it not make sense to get the information from those who will tell me why they don't believe?!?
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 12 2007,12:59) WJ, Yes, I list the reason why unbelieving Jews will not believe. Doesn't that make sense? Is that not the issue? There are other reasons they reject him of course, but the overwhelming theme I see from unbelieving Jews is the concept of the trinity and the supposed abolishment of the Law. Two things that aren't biblically true!
Why should I find out from Christians why unbelieving Jews do not believe in the Messiah? Isn't that a fallacy? If I want to find out why many Jews do not want to believe, would it not make sense to get the information from those who will tell me why they don't believe?!?
kejonnBut these sights are not just Christian. They are Jews who have accepted the Messiah.
http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/messianic-jew.htm
(Believes Jesus is God)http://jewsforjesus.org/
(Believes in the trinity)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus
http://www.forjewsforjesus.org/
(Trinitarian)WJ,
I would suggest you do some studies on Jews for Jesus. It seems they have a very seedy history. I'll leave the research to you. I WILL say that there are several ex-Jews for Jesus sites out there, and all cite various levels of abuse while with the organization.
If I want to find out why someone does not believe, should I look to believers for answers? Does that make even the slightest bit of sense to you?
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 12 2007,12:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2007,11:53) kenrch,Oct. wrote:Quote 15 Having “abolished” in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace, Jews and gentiles alike. I believe the Commandments of God were contained in the ARK
Notice “the law of commandments” NOT Commandments of God.
Paul said he served the law of God. The law of God is the Law God wrote in stone and latter in the “new Covenant” written on our heart and mind NOT in “ordinances” which were nailed to the cross Col.2 :14-16.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
WJ could it just be possible that all of the scriptures that say “keep His Commandments ” are truth and you may be deceived by the RCC?
Come out of her MY PEOPLE.
kenrchHi all!
Are the Commandments of God and the Laws of God the Same?
Lev 7:
[35] This is the portion of the anointing of Aaron, and of the anointing of his sons, out of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, in the day when he presented them to minister unto the LORD in the priest's office;
[36] Which the LORD commanded to be given them of the children of Israel, in the day that he anointed them, by a statute for ever throughout their generations.
[37] This is the law of the burnt offering, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings;
[38] Which the LORD commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai.Looks like commandments to me!
Lev 8:
31] And Moses said unto Aaron and to his sons, Boil the flesh at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and there eat it with the bread that is in the basket of consecrations, as I commanded, saying, Aaron and his sons shall eat it.
[32] And that which remaineth of the flesh and of the bread shall ye burn with fire.
[33] And ye shall not go out of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end: for seven days shall he consecrate you.
[34] As he hath done this day, so the LORD hath commanded to do, to make an atonement for you.
[35] Therefore shall ye abide at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days, and keep the charge of the LORD, that ye die not: for so I am commanded.
[36] So Aaron and his sons did all things which the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.Looks like commandments to me!
Lev 27
[30] And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
[31] And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
[32] And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
[33] He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.
[34] These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.Looks like commandments to me!!!
All these Laws/commandments were given to moses on Mt Sinai.
The Covenant From Sinai Abolished nailed to the tree!
Gal. 4:21-31
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, and the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh, but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the Mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar…. But Jerusalem which is above is free which is the mother of us all…. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born of the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the freeWhich things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the **Mount Sinai**, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar…. But Jerusalem which is above is free which is the mother of us all
You have no scripture saying the “Ten Commandments is all Jesus and the Apostles were speaking of!
Purely man made opinion and speculation!
How many Commandments did God write:Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Deu 5:16
Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.
Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.God wrote TEN Commandments and added NO MORE.
Where were the Ten Commandments placed?
Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.Where were the laws given to Moses to write placed?
Deu 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.
Did God get writers cramp so HE told Moses to finish writing the law?
WJ are you saying that you reject and will not keep the forth commandment of God?
kenrchWhere is the Ark now? Where is the Tablets of stone?
2 Cor 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of *the letter* but of the Spirit; for the *letter kills*, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, *in letters engraved on stones*, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?You want to follow the ministry of death? Go ahead.
Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 12 2007,13:25) WJ, I would suggest you do some studies on Jews for Jesus. It seems they have a very seedy history. I'll leave the research to you. I WILL say that there are several ex-Jews for Jesus sites out there, and all cite various levels of abuse while with the organization.
If I want to find out why someone does not believe, should I look to believers for answers? Does that make even the slightest bit of sense to you?
kejonnThere is more than one organization for Jews for Christ.
Point is, they also have believed that Yeshua is the Messiah and many believe Yeshua is God.
Quote 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Lets read a little further.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.Paul said he was NOT without the law of God!
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.WJ Are you saying that YOU reject and will not keep the forth commandment of God?
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 12 2007,13:53) Quote 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Lets read a little further.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.Paul said he was NOT without the law of God!
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.WJ Are you saying that YOU reject and will not keep the forth commandment of God?
kenrchI am saying I follow the ministry of the Spirit, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the New Covenant.
You on the other hand are following the letter of the Law, Moses engraved on stones, the letter that kills, the ministration of death.
Look again…
2 Cor 3:
3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but (J)our adequacy is from God,
6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of he letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12(T)Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;Is your mind still hard kenrch? For apparently the veil is still over your face as you read the “Old Covenant”.
Why do you not obey the commandment to throw away the Old and serve the New?
I have thrown out Hagar to follow the promise given by the Spirit, the New Covenant.
You on the other hand follow the Old and desire to be in bondage to the Old Covenant, the son of Hagar the bondwoman.
Gal 4:
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30 But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman
Gal 2:
1 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
2 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
4 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
5 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
6 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
7 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.kenrch, you should listen to Paul, for he was a Hebrew of the Hebrews.
Phil 3:
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
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