Covenants

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,07:06)

Moved from the Sabbath thread

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,13:06)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:41)

WJ,

Stop one moment and think of the story of Isaac and Ishmael. Why was Ismael born? Because Abram and Sarai wanted to fulfill the promise God made to them instead of waiting on God to do it. That is where the bondage comes from: doing things our way instead of God's way. Therefore, the law became bondage because the Israelites had come to only observe the letter and not the Spirit. And they also added many of their own regulations on how the law should be carried out. In other words, they took God's law and lived it the way they chose instead of doing it God's way.

Just like with the conception of Isaac.

Now look at these two verses:

Gal 4:25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

The ones in bondage corresponded to the present Jerusalem. That is, those who lived by the letter and not the Spirit. The sames ones who accused Yeshua of breaking the law at every turn because he was doing it God's way and not their way.

The lesson in Galatians ch.4 is to follow the leadership of the Spirit!

LG&LP,
Kevin

kejonn

But there are two parts of these passages that should be emphasized.

1. Which things are an allegory: for these are the *two covenants*

2. But as then he that was *born after the flesh* persecuted him that was *born of the Spirit*, even so it is now

The paralell is the “Two Covenants, The “Two Natures” the the “flesh and the Spirit” the “Two Kingdoms” (This world and the Kingdom of God the New Jerusalem)

The Epistle of Galations was written by Paul to defend against those who are persecuting those who are of the Spirit by seeking to bring them under the Law. Which was our tutor to bring us to Christ and which afterwards we no longer need as our tutor.

Gal 3:
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The Old and the New.

Later Paul writes…

Gal 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Which lines up beautifully with what Jesus said the first two commandments were and by which all the law and the Prophets hang. The New Covenant law of the Spirit of life in Christ is a higher law than the Old.

There is no other requirement that I can see but to live in the Spirit and be filled with the Spirit daily.

IMO.

Blessings

WJ,

Again, this is where many Christians are missing out. This also may be why Christianity is starting to lose so much ground in America — because people either see legalistic Christians (like the Pharisees were among the Jews) or liberal Christians who look just like the world. Neither group has learned the real connection between the two big covenants.

The new covenant is not a wholesale elimination of the old. Did you EVER see where Yeshua said such a thing? Is the new covenant through Paul or Yeshua? Since you know it is through Christ, you need to compare Paul's teachings with that of Christ's.

Can you show me one single instance where Yeshua spoke of circumcision? He didn't have to because he strictly ministered to Jews. But he often spoke of the law. What of this?

Mat 19:16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”
Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
Mat 19:18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Mat 19:20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?”
Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Mat 19:22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Now why did the young man miss out on Yeshua's message? Christ told him to keep the commandments but then he added in the next step: that you surrender yourself to him. He didn't say do one but don't do the other. The idea here was that the Law is not enough and it is not where righteousness is found. It is found in our willingness to surround our wills to God. One way we know we've done that is if we are obedient to the commandments! Not by letter, but by our very inner being. That is, our surrender to Christ results in obedience to the commandments of God, not vice versa.

The new covenant is not a replacement but an improvement! It takes away the penalty. And it adds the indwelling of the Spirit that allows us to seek out what pleases God.

The new covenant is a return to the faith that Abraham exhibited. Which is quite appropriate as we are the result of the promise given to Abraham.

Finally, Paul was specific about what the Jews were telling the Galatian believers to do, and it is the same usual thing:

Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

It was all about circumcision again!

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

How does this verse compare with another than Paul stated to the Corinthian believers?

1Co 7:19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

Put the two together and you can see that faith working through love is what results in us being able to keep the commandments of God! This is pretty much what Yeshua himself said.

Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

So you see, Paul is teaching the same thing Christ taught.
You must line Pauls's teaching up with the Messiah's to get the true teaching of the New Testament.

LG&LP,
Kevin

kejonn

I think we are sayng the same thing.

However, I disagree in that you are saying that the Old Covenant is still valid for the Born again Christian.

So we are not supposed to throw out the Bondwoman but to continue to come under the law?

We will have to disagree.

The life we now live is the Spirit of life in Christ which has made us free from the Law of sin and death.

Of course this is not a license to sin. But If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh and we will not be under the law for there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit.

The Old has been fulfilled in Christ for he is our Sabbath rest as we walk in the Spirit and cease from our own works.

October 6, 2007 at 7:48 pm#67701

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,14:34)

kejonn

I think we are sayng the same thing.

However, I disagree in that you are saying that the Old Covenant is still valid for the Born again Christian.

Yes, and no. The old covenant included the various penalties for sin. The only penalty for sin now is death: “the wages of sin is death”.

Quote

So we are not supposed to throw out the Bondwoman but to continue to come under the law?

We will have to disagree.

You still fail to understand. I know, so did I at one time. See below.

Quote

The life we now live is the Spirit of life in Christ which has made us free from the Law of sin and death.

Of course this is not a license to sin. But If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh and we will not be under the law for there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit.

The Old has been fulfilled in Christ for he is our Sabbath rest as we walk in the Spirit and cease from our own works.

Here's a question: how do you know what is sin? And what IS sin? Let us define “sin”, shall we?

October 6, 2007 at 7:59 pm#67702

Participant

kejonn

I do have one more thing to say.

You say…

Quote

I think this is an unfair judgment of Christianity and the millions of born again believers.

You surely have the right to believe this. But I just wonder how you can make this judgment when you dont even brighten the doors of a church?

I see Gods Spirit moving all around me in many churches (and yes I visit them), people getting saved and healed and filled with the Holy Spirit, lives being changed. The young people are on fire for Jesus.

When I hear people making broad negative statements about the Body of Christ, two things comes to mind…

1. Jesus word is untrue when he said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church.

2. Jesus is not doing a very good job with his body, but the accuser of the brethren has the upper hand.

There is one thing for sure, the accuser of the brethren is alive and well.

October 6, 2007 at 8:18 pm#67705

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,07:48)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,14:34)

kejonn

I think we are sayng the same thing.

However, I disagree in that you are saying that the Old Covenant is still valid for the Born again Christian.

Yes, and no. The old covenant included the various penalties for sin. The only penalty for sin now is death: “the wages of sin is death”.

Quote

So we are not supposed to throw out the Bondwoman but to continue to come under the law?

We will have to disagree.

You still fail to understand. I know, so did I at one time. See below.

Quote

The life we now live is the Spirit of life in Christ which has made us free from the Law of sin and death.

Of course this is not a license to sin. But If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh and we will not be under the law for there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit.

The Old has been fulfilled in Christ for he is our Sabbath rest as we walk in the Spirit and cease from our own works.

Here's a question: how do you know what is sin? And what IS sin? Let us define “sin”, shall we?

kejonn

How do I know what is sin?

Sin is the transgressiion of the law. So therefore we are all guilty. That is the point.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So we can never be justified by keeping the law or coming under it.

What makes people think that after they have been justified by faith then the are now to seek to please God by the keeping of the law?

There is a New Law. Its the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ. His Spirit convicts me of sin His Spirit tells me when I am wrong by conviction.

Those who want to be under the law must keep the whole law.

Gal 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

You say…

Quote

You still fail to understand. I know, so did I at one time. See below.

Yes of course kejonn. Condescend. But answer the question.

Are we or are we not suposed to throw out the bondwaman, the Old to accept the New?

October 6, 2007 at 8:30 pm#67707

Participant

WJ,

Almost every where I go, people are leaving churches. Just do the research. The church in America is headed for extinction. I assume you are in the US? I am smack dab in the Bible Belt and I see more and more people leaving “the church”. I think you have your head in the sand if you can't see that.

And why? The newest generation of people are spiritually hungry. But they are NOT turning to churches to satisfy their hunger because the typical American church has left their first love. And we are certainly living in the “lukewarm” age as well.

American's are overly blessed. So much so that they take it for granted. Why turn to God when the people of God are no different that themselves? There is a major upturn in anti-christianity in this country. The once quiet atheists are now becoming proactive in their hatred of all things Christian. They are not attacking other religions, they are attacking Christianity! Why? Is it because Satan is working overtime in America or is it because the typical Christian doesn't even bother to don one single piece of the armor of God?

Go to youtube and type in “christian”. You will find thousands of hits, and barely a one of them is a positive statement of Christianity! The world is winning, WJ. And its not because God is not in control, but because we are seeing what happened to the Jews when they allowed themselves to pursue things that were not of God. God allowed them to come under bondage, and He can do the same thing to Christians. He IS our God after all. Don't think He won't allow Christians to come under the same bondage that He allowed for the Jews.

I love you WJ. I truly believe you are a truth seeker and your heart is much like King David's. But its time to take Jesus out of the church and bring him to the world. What you may see inside of the four walls of a church building is small compared to the mission given to us.

LG&LP,
Kevin

October 6, 2007 at 8:41 pm#67708

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,14:59)

kejonn

I do have one more thing to say.

You say…

Quote

I think this is an unfair judgment of Christianity and the millions of born again believers.

You surely have the right to believe this. But I just wonder how you can make this judgment when you dont even brighten the doors of a church?

But this is only a recent event. I have attended churches for the past 20 years. I have only been out for a couple of months. Has something changed since then?

Quote

This statement says so much, WJ! It is one thing to see the Spirit of God move in a place where it is expected, but have you been seeing it outside of the four walls? That IS the key. Go back and study Acts. Apostles going from house to house. People being saved in public gatherings. Do we see anything like that anymore?

Quote

When I hear people making broad negative statements about the Body of Christ, two things comes to mind…

Is the body of Christ found in a building?

Quote

1. Jesus word is untrue when he said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church.

The true church, not this plaything we have made it into. 95% of the people who darken a church's door don't have a clue about the real sacrifice it takes to be a child of God. His church is still alive, but there are many, many tares my friend.

Quote

2. Jesus is not doing a very good job with his body, but the accuser of the brethren has the upper hand.

But is that Yeshua's fault or our own? He is in heaven. We have a free will. We choose to serve or not. Many say they will serve. And that service is relegated to 1-2 hours every Sunday morning.

Quote

There is one thing for sure, the accuser of the brethren is alive and well.

Yes he is. And we are allowing him to gain a foothold. We, not Christ. We choose our own path.

October 6, 2007 at 9:04 pm#67711

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,08:30)

WJ,

LG&LP,
Kevin

Quote

I think you have your head in the sand if you can't see that.

Yea, whatever!

October 6, 2007 at 9:06 pm#67712

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,08:41)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,14:59)

kejonn

I do have one more thing to say.

You say…

Quote

I think this is an unfair judgment of Christianity and the millions of born again believers.

You surely have the right to believe this. But I just wonder how you can make this judgment when you dont even brighten the doors of a church?

But this is only a recent event. I have attended churches for the past 20 years. I have only been out for a couple of months. Has something changed since then?

Quote

When I hear people making broad negative statements about the Body of Christ, two things comes to mind…

Is the body of Christ found in a building?

Quote

1. Jesus word is untrue when he said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church.

Quote

2. Jesus is not doing a very good job with his body, but the accuser of the brethren has the upper hand.

But is that Yeshua's fault or our own? He is in heaven. We have a free will. We choose to serve or not. Many say they will serve. And that service is relegated to 1-2 hours every Sunday morning.

Quote

There is one thing for sure, the accuser of the brethren is alive and well.

Yes he is. And we are allowing him to gain a foothold. We, not Christ. We choose our own path.

kejonn

Yes of course and you have found the light and the majority of Christianity is blind and lost because the devil is winning!

October 6, 2007 at 9:27 pm#67716

Participant

WJ,

Your short statements also speak volumes. You have no real defense against what I said, do you? Where do you see the average “Christian” standing up for Christ outside of the sanctuary of the local church?

The silence is deafening…

October 6, 2007 at 10:09 pm#67722

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,09:27)

WJ,

The silence is deafening…

kejonn

And you have no real defense of what I said about the Church not being dead like you say.

I see people getting saved on street corners. Young people going out and bring friends into the Kindom then bringing them to Church and then getting baptised.

There are street corner meetings. House to house evangelizing. Nursing homes Hospitals Etc Etc Etc.

People in homes getting filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of Speaking in tongues. People getting healed from deseases and physical problems of all sorts.

Its not just in the four walls of our church. We have missionarys going into other remote parts of the world and witnessing the Power of God saving people by the hundreds.

But you act as if your world is the only world that is happening in the Christain world.

After all like you said I have my head in the sand.

October 6, 2007 at 10:14 pm#67723

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,15:18)

kejonn

How do I know what is sin?

Sin is the transgressiion of the law. So therefore we are all guilty. That is the point.

Yes, we are. But we then repent and give our life to Christ. How do we know what is sin after that point? You say sin is transgression of the law, but yet you deny that Christians have anything to do with the law. How do you reconcile these conflicting views?

Quote

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So we can never be justified by keeping the law or coming under it.

Exactly. Yet you fail to see that we can still strive to see those things the law points out so that we may know more about what pleases God.

Quote

What makes people think that after they have been justified by faith then the are now to seek to please God by the keeping of the law?

Go back in my posts. Show me where I say to keep the law.I do not. I merely encourage others to sudy the law to see what pleases God. Therein lies all the difference.

How are you assured of your faith? Does not James say that faith without works is nothing?

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder!
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”–and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Wj, did you know that the ones who were formulating the canon of scripture wanted to leave out James? The only reason they finally agreed to include it was because James was the brother of the Messiah! James grew up with Yeshua and accompanied him in his ministry. Paul only received teaching of the savior by inspiration. Who then was closer to the real teaching of Christ than his own flesh AND spiritual brother?

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There is a New Law. Its the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ. His Spirit convicts me of sin His Spirit tells me when I am wrong by conviction.

Every time? Do you know of any thing in your life that you thought was OK for a long time but was revealed to you years later? And how was it revealed to you?

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Those who want to be under the law must keep the whole law.

And as I have emphasized time and again, no one is preaching the law. What we are espousing is seeking to obey God's commandments because they show our love towards Him.

Quote

Gal 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Yes, there is no law against them because they are a natural result of loving God and loving people. To love God is to keep his commandments. Or does scripture say something else?

Quote

You say…

Quote

You still fail to understand. I know, so did I at one time. See below.

Yes of course kejonn. Condescend. But answer the question.

I am not condescending WJ. I am just admitting that I too felt the same way you did before. Why? Because I listened to what man said and not what God says in His Word.

Quote

Are we or are we not suposed to throw out the bondwaman, the Old to accept the New?

The difference here is that you say the new is an abolishment of the old. It is not. It is an improvement of the old. Show me where the old is completely abolished.

October 6, 2007 at 10:22 pm#67725

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,17:09)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,09:27)

WJ,

The silence is deafening…

kejonn

And you have no real defense of what I said about the Church not being dead like you say.

Yes I do. Its called personal experience. Almost every one I know has left a local church because they saw no real value in it. They see value in Christ and God, but not in man-made church.

Quote

I see people getting saved on street corners. Young people going out and bring friends into the Kindom then bringing them to Church and then getting baptised.

There are street corner meetings. House to house evangelizing. Nursing homes Hospitals Etc Etc Etc.

People in homes getting filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of Speaking in tongues. People getting healed from deseases and physical problems of all sorts.

Its not just in the four walls of our church. We have missionarys going into other remote parts of the world and witnessing the Power of God saving people by the hundreds.

But you act as if your world is the only world that is happening in the Christain world.

Praise God! I'm thankful you have a revival in your area. I cannot say the same though. I think that if you take a moment and catch up with the overall spiritual condition of the church in America, you'd find something unlike what you are experiencing. What I see reflects the overall view.

Quote

After all like you said I have my head in the sand.

You do if you live in the seclusion of your community. We are missionaries to the world, not just our local community.

October 7, 2007 at 6:06 am#67737

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/murray/covenants.iii.v.html

Participant

Hi All.

Here is some helpfull information on the “Two Covenants”.

THE TWO COVENANTS
CHAPTER V

The Two Covenants in Christian Experience
“These women are two covenants: one from Mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar. Now this Hagar answereth to Jerusalem that now is, for she is in bondage with her children. But the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is our mother. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. With freedom did Christ set us free. Stand fast, therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.”-GAL. iv. 24-81, v. 1.

THE house of Abraham was the Church of God of that age. The division in his house, one son, his own son, but born after the flesh, the other after the promise, was a divinely-ordained manifestation of the division there would be in all ages between the children of the bondwoman, those who served God in the spirit of bondage, and those who were children of the free, and 38served Him in the Spirit of His Son. The passage teaches us what the whole Epistle confirms: that the Galatians had become entangled with a yoke of bondage, and were not standing fast in the freedom with which Christ makes free indeed. Instead of living in the New Covenant, in the Jerusalem which is from above, in the liberty which the Holy Spirit gives, their whole walk proved that, though Christians, they were of the Old Covenant, which bringeth forth children unto bondage. The passage teaches us the great truth, which it is of the utmost consequence for us to apprehend thoroughly, that a man, with a measure of the knowledge and experience of the grace of God, may prove, by a legal spirit, that he is yet practically, to a large extent, under the Old Covenant. And it will show us, with wonderful clearness; what the proofs are of the absence of the true New Covenant life.

A careful study of the Epistle shows us that the difference between the two Covenants is seen in three things. The law and its works is contrasted with the hearing of faith, the flesh and its religion with the flesh crucified, the impotence to good with a walk in the liberty and the power 39of the Spirit. May the Holy Spirit reveal to us this twofold life.

The first antithesis we find in Paul’s words, “Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or the hearing of faith?” These Galatians had indeed been born into the New Covenant; they had received the Holy Spirit. But they had been led away by Jewish teachers, and, though they had been justified by faith, they were seeking to be sanctified by works; they were looking for the maintenance and the growth of their Christian life to the observance of the law. They had not understood that, equally with the beginning, the progress of the Divine life is alone by faith, day by day receiving its strength from Christ alone; that in Jesus Christ nothing avails but faith working by love.

Almost every believer makes the same mistake as the Galatian Christians. Very few learn at conversion at once that it is only by faith that we stand, and walk, and live. They have no conception of the meaning of Paul’s teaching about being dead to the law, freed from the law—about the freedom with which Christ makes us free. “As many as are led by the Spirit are not 40under the law.” Regarding the law as a Divine ordinance for our direction, they consider themselves prepared and fitted by conversion to take up the fulfilment of the law as a natural duty. They know not that, in the New Covenant, the law written in the heart needs an unceasing faith in a Divine power, to enable us by a Divine power to keep it. They cannot understand that it is not to the law, but to a Living Person, that we are now bound, and that our obedience and holiness are only possible by the unceasing faith in His power ever working in us. It is only when this is seen, that we are prepared truly to live in the New Covenant.

October 7, 2007 at 12:08 pm#67755

kenrch

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2007,18:06)

Hi All.

Here is some helpfull information on the “Two Covenants”.

THE TWO COVENANTS
CHAPTER V

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/murray/covenants.iii.v.html

WJ what do these scriptures say to you?

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Really WJ those and all the other scriptures that say Keep His Commandments.

You keep nine. But their are TEN.

Who doesn't want you to keep the forth commandment….GOD?

Bless you WJ,

Ken

October 7, 2007 at 3:12 pm#67766

Participant

To WJ,
If you hear people “babeling” that is NOT speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues is merely speaking another language that you did not know how to speak. I speak English. If I suddenly began to teach who is the Messiah to a Jew, and spoke in Hebrew, a language I never learned how to speak, this is speaking in tongues. Anything else is from the evil one!

In Scripture, on Shavout (Pentecost), the deciples were gathered at the temple. There were literally thousands of foriegners outside the temple for this Feast. It is one of three commanded gatherings each year for Elohim's people. These folks spoke different languages, some Hebrew, some Aramaic, some Greek, etc… The deciples spoke to them, each in their own language, so to preach the good news of the kingdom!

Then I have to say KJ hits the nail on the head when he says we should keep the Torah (law) to please our Creator! We are not saved by keeping the law, we have all sinned, except the Son of ELohim. We can not erase our previous sins by our works. Sin=death no matter how you slice it. Our sins are erased, only through the sacrifice of the Son, whom knowingly gave His life, so that we who believe this will have everlasting life. Once, repentence takes place, we make a “covenant” with our Father in heaven, to keep His Torah (law), for it is good to serve Him. Upon knowing the truth and we continue in sin, there is “no more sacrifice for sin” and because we understand that sinning on purpose caused the death of our Master Y'shua Messiah, we who believe and know the truth, choose by our own will to “obey” for we worship Him who made the heavens and the earth. We become Set-apart in the Spirit, and “see” the evil in sin. We choose not to be worshiping the evil one. We show it by our good works, that is pleasing our Father, because we love and worship Him. He becomes the focal point of out lives. His Torah (law) becomes our “teacher”. We learn as we grow into the full stature of our Master Y'shua Messiah, and follow in His footsteps.

If you want to hang out with Y'shua, you will first want to be His friend, His companion, His pal, His loving partner. He is the guide with a vision. He is our eyes. He is our ears. He did not sin, so to follow in His path, means we also do not sin. Sin hurts, sin, hates, sin lusts, sin leads to death. We are on the path to everlasting life. The vision is now ours, the Words are ours, the Son is our brother, the Creator is our Father. He adopts us, we are His children, Set-apart in Spirit and in good works, showing our love and not just preaching it. We give ourselves over to Him, and separate ourselves from the evil one, lusts of thw world become an abomination to us. We “see” the goal, and run for it!

Not much Scripture, just a lot of passion for thr truth that I have found, and hope we all will reach the goal in our individual lives, for then we will all be one body.

Laurel
WJ, Don't give up, it is so worth the effort!

October 8, 2007 at 11:28 pm#67874

Participant

Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 08 2007,03:12)

Not much Scripture, just a lot of passion for thr truth that I have found, and hope we all will reach the goal in our individual lives, for then we will all be one body.

Laurel
WJ, Don't give up, it is so worth the effort!

laural

Then what do these scriptures mean to you?

1 Cor 14:
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual {gifts,} but especially that you may prophesy.
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

As you can see “Tongues” is not just speaking in another human language, for we speak mysteries to God!

October 9, 2007 at 5:41 am#67894

Participant

Cor 14
Speaks like this:

Talking, language, words that come out of our mouths, is how men communicate.

Elohim speaks to us through the Spirit.

Laurel

October 9, 2007 at 5:47 am#67895

Participant

Vs. 13 says:

If you speak a foreign language, have an interpreter.

Vs. 14

Praying in words the Spirit in the person prays also, the mind is unfruitful, the Spirit is fruitful, because our minds are fleshy.

Vs. 15

The Spirit is understanding, the Spirit is understanding, whether in song or in prayer.

Laurel

October 10, 2007 at 2:48 pm#68008

Participant

Hi all,

I can't link directly to this weeks broadcast MP3s for Ronald Dart, but I'd highly encourage you to listen to them, particularly todays (Oct. 10, 2007). You can go to http://borntowin.net and then click on the link “Radio Archives” (I think) to listen to this weeks lessons.

This week he has been talking about the sayings of Yeshua. It is very enlightening. I know some people on here don't like Mr. Dart because of his background and the fact that he actually sees value in the OT, but if you'd take the time to listen, you'll likely look more closely at what Yeshua REALLY said about the law. You'll also likely see — if you have an open heart and mind — that Yeshua definitely did not abolish the law! He came to show us the true meaning of it.

Also, for those who think Paul preached abolishing the Law, what of this verse?

Act 24:14 “But this I [Paul] admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;

Paul merely opposes those who say the Law saves! He knows where salvation is found, but he also knows that the Law is good for us to know how to live our lives in a manner pleasing to God.

Rom 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

LG&LP,
Kevin

October 10, 2007 at 11:44 pm#68037