Could god have evolved?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 25 2011,23:08)

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 25 2011,18:55) Hi Stu, OK. I think you are asking for a starting point definition. Let's go with creative intelligence OK?                                                         With Love and Respect,                                                                Wispring The only creative intelligence we know to exist is that held by humans and other animals.  So what is a god, and by what means  might it also possess this quality?   Stuart

How can we know that creative intelligence exists, Stu?

You said humans and other animals possess a quality how did you determine the nature of that quality and did that quality always exist?

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Mar. 27 2011,07:55)

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 25 2011,23:08) Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 25 2011,18:55) Hi Stu, OK. I think you are asking for a starting point definition. Let's go with creative intelligence OK?                                                         With Love and Respect,                                                                Wispring The only creative intelligence we know to exist is that held by humans and other animals.  So what is a god, and by what means  might it also possess this quality?   Stuart How can we know that creative intelligence exists, Stu? You said humans and other animals possess a quality how did you determine the nature of that quality and did that quality always exist?

To be honest it doesn't really worry me in the end. If Mr. Riddles can't come up with a worthwhile line of discourse then we may as well discuss the existence of slapstick comedy and its practice by allah and other minor gods.

Do you have an opinion about this question of whether gods evolve?

Stuart

[Wispring]

Hi Stu,
I hope this makes things more clear.

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Quote Why can the beginning of the universe not be the uncaused cause of everything we see? Good starting point. Why couldn't the 'uncaused cause' as a thought experiment be replaced with 'unbegotten god' with unlimited potential and then proceed from that point? With Love and Respect, Wispring

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What is a god?

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Hi Stu, OK. I think you are asking for a starting point definition. Let's go with creative intelligence OK? With Love and Respect, Wispring

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I would say start with your own creative intelligence to build up what to you make good sense, cohesive logical constructs with internal logical consistancy Wispring

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It's not mine, it's yours Wispring

(i.e. the god concept)
The point of the thought experiment is for you to build the concept not me. Try letting the concept evolve in your thoughts so to speak.

Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi Bod,
Happy birthday a few days back!

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[Stu]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 27 2011,10:59)

Hi Stu, I hope this makes things more clear. Quote Quote   Why can the beginning of the universe not be the uncaused cause of everything we see? Good starting point. Why couldn't the 'uncaused cause' as a thought experiment be replaced with 'unbegotten god' with unlimited potential and then proceed from that point?                                                                                         With Love and Respect,                                                        Wispring Quote What is a god? Quote Hi Stu, OK. I think you are asking for a starting point definition. Let's go with creative intelligence OK?                                                        With Love and Respect,                                                               Wispring Quote I would say start with your own creative intelligence to build up what to you make good sense, cohesive logical constructs with internal logical consistancy Wispring Quote It's not mine, it's yours Wispring (i.e. the god concept)   The point of the thought experiment is for you to build the concept not me. Try letting the concept evolve in your thoughts so to speak. Wispring

You are evidently a troll, so end of conversation with me, I'm afraid.

Stuart

[Wispring]

Hi Stu,
You could of your own volition give this god an attribute of unconditional love or not. Remember, you are the one doing the creating.

Wispring

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 27 2011,11:00)

Hi Bod,   Happy birthday a few days back!                                               With Love and Respect,                                             Wispring

Thank you!

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 27 2011,09:09)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Mar. 27 2011,07:55) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 25 2011,23:08) Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 25 2011,18:55) Hi Stu, OK. I think you are asking for a starting point definition. Let's go with creative intelligence OK?                                                         With Love and Respect,                                                                Wispring The only creative intelligence we know to exist is that held by humans and other animals.  So what is a god, and by what means  might it also possess this quality?   Stuart How can we know that creative intelligence exists, Stu? You said humans and other animals possess a quality how did you determine the nature of that quality and did that quality always exist? To be honest it doesn't really worry me in the end.  If Mr. Riddles can't come up with a worthwhile line of discourse then we may as well discuss the existence of slapstick comedy and its practice by allah and other minor gods. Do you have an opinion about this question of whether gods evolve? Stuart

Concepts of God can evolve but God would have no cause to evolve from or to.

You're arguments pertaining to God mainly rely on the concepts of others therefore your arguments always end up invalid.

Any argument for or against God is an acknowledgement of the validity of the concept of God warranting such argument if there is no God and you reject the very concept then you would need to reject the very idea of argument in relation to the concept itself.

[Wispring]

Well said Bod. Stu I will be honest and truthful here. I cannot lead you to God. Scripture cannot lead you to God. I cannot reveal God to you, no one can. Only God can lead you to God. You, because, you have the ability to accept or reject God are the one to establish a relationship. I have made God my friend. While this may not fully agree with Judeo-Christian or Muslim concepts of what type of relationship I should have with God. I am comfortable with it and God hasn't revealed to me that God is offended by this quality of our relationship. I was only trying to help you develope or evolve a relationship that you are comfortable with. You may not be aware of it, but, God truly is merciful, forgiving, compassionate and yes, loving. God loves you so much that God will let you set the terms just to be able to be in your life.

                                            With Love and Respect,
                                                          Wispring

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Mar. 29 2011,08:00)

Concepts of God can evolve but God would have no cause to evolve from or to. You're arguments pertaining to God mainly rely on the concepts of others therefore your arguments always end up invalid. Any argument for or against God is an acknowledgement of the validity of the concept of God warranting such argument if there is no God and you reject the very concept then you would need to reject the very idea of argument in relation to the concept itself.

So if your god does not arise from any evolutionary process, and we know that all species that we consider intelligent did arise by a slow, incremental evolutionary process then it cannot genuinely be said that humans are made in the image of that god, due to this fundamental difference. Unless the god has the same hallmarks as us of that same evolutionary process, but then why would it have?

Well that is your problem. You have nothing at all to say about this god from any perspective that is not just you inventing or copying some fantasy story.

Your second statement asserts the existence of a god, and presumably the properties of the god under discussion. If you are just doing the telling then you better have more than just assertion and dodgy grammar. Of course you don't have anything better as you have demonstrated in the past across the world.

As for your last paragraph, I'll give you 17 Stu points if you can tell me what the logical fallacy is that invalidates it.

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

Stu's god is probably gravity.
His prophet told him it was gravity and he probably backs that option more than any other. Although he doesn't have a clue about what was first, he knows without a doubt that there is no intelligent creator God and that gravity is a better god because gravity has the IQ of zero and therefore cannot judge him.

Although it does beg the question that if gravity can't judge, then how did it produce the universe?

OK, let's ignore that thought shall we.

[Wispring]

How do we know that gravity has an IQ of zero? Are the test results published somewhere?

Wispring

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 29 2011,17:03)

Stu's god is probably gravity. His prophet told him it was gravity and he probably backs that option more than any other. Although he doesn't have a clue about what was first, he knows without a doubt that there is no intelligent creator God and that gravity is a better god because gravity has the IQ of zero and therefore cannot judge him. Although it does beg the question that if gravity can't judge, then how did it produce the universe? OK, let's ignore that thought shall we.

I can ignore all of those thoughts if it gladdens your heart further t8.

I will pick you up on one thing though, I think I have a very good idea what was “first”, and in fact I have told you before what that is. Do you remember?

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 29 2011,16:44)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Mar. 29 2011,08:00) Concepts of God can evolve but God would have no cause to evolve from or to. You're arguments pertaining to God mainly rely on the concepts of others therefore your arguments always end up invalid. Any argument for or against God is an acknowledgement of the validity of the concept of God warranting such argument if there is no God and you reject the very concept then you would need to reject the very idea of argument in relation to the concept itself. So if your god does not arise from any evolutionary process, and we know that all species that we consider intelligent did arise by a slow, incremental evolutionary process then it cannot genuinely be said that humans are made in the image of that god, due to this fundamental difference.  Unless the god has the same hallmarks as us of that same evolutionary process, but then why would it have? Well that is your problem.  You have nothing at all to say about this god from any perspective that is not just you inventing or copying some fantasy story. Your second statement asserts the existence of a god, and presumably the properties of the god under discussion.  If you are just doing the telling then you better have more than just assertion and dodgy grammar.  Of course you don't have anything better as you have demonstrated in the past across the world. As for your last paragraph, I'll give you 17 Stu points if you can tell me what the logical fallacy is that invalidates it. Stuart

If you are arguing from ignorance then your argument is invalid it is also a genetic fallacy since your primary rejection of God is the rejection of the source in which the concept is presented. You are also commiting the Fallacist’s Fallacy you are commiting many fallacies. The only logical and rational position for you ever to take is to simply say you have no idea whatsoever if God exists but as far as you know God does not exist, any other argument from you is unintelligent.

Also man being made in the image of God has nothing at all to do with the composition of Man's physical being

[karmarie]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 29 2011,16:17)

Well said Bod. Stu I will be honest and truthful here. I cannot lead you to God. Scripture cannot lead you to God. I cannot reveal God to you, no one can. Only God can lead you to God. You, because, you have the ability to accept or reject God are the one to establish a relationship. I have made God my friend. While this may not fully agree with Judeo-Christian or Muslim concepts of what type of relationship I should have with God. I am comfortable with it and God hasn't revealed to me that God is offended by this quality of our relationship. I was only trying to help you develope or evolve a relationship that you are comfortable with. You may not be aware of it, but, God truly is merciful, forgiving, compassionate and yes, loving. God loves you so much that God will let you set the terms just to be able to be in your life.                                             With Love and Respect,                                                           Wispring

Amen. I like that wispring. God is a friend

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Mar. 30 2011,11:21)

If you are arguing from ignorance then your argument is invalid it is also a genetic fallacy since your primary rejection of God is the rejection of the source in which the concept is presented. You are also commiting the Fallacist’s Fallacy you are commiting many fallacies. The only logical and rational position for you ever to take is to simply say you have no idea whatsoever if God exists but as far as you know God does not exist, any other argument from you is unintelligent. Also man being made in the image of God has nothing at all to do with the composition of Man's physical being

Sorry, you get zero points for not answering the question of your logical fallacy in that previous paragraph.

How am I arguing from ignorance? In regards to genetic fallacy, that can only come into existence because of your logically fallacious assertion of the existence of the subject of your discourse, for which the negative assertion is just as valid.

I have made the argument that I cannot know whether any gods exist or not, and that is true for you too so I'm glad you brought it up. By the way, saying there is no god is a “rational and logical” position, just as islam is “rational and logical” based on an indefensible premise. I don't make a premise in this case that there is no god then derive non-existence of gods, I take an empirical view that since there is no unambiguous evidence for any god that it is reasonable to rationally (but provisionally) conclude there is no such thing. That view is easily destroyed by empirical evidence to the contrary, but there isn't any. So much for abrahamic mythology being something you could reasonably call “true”.

I see in your last statement you are making more assertions about the god you cannot know exists, and another about whether humans consist of anything more than “physical being”.

Assert, assert, assert. That's all you've got.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 30 2011,13:57)

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 29 2011,16:17) Well said Bod. Stu I will be honest and truthful here. I cannot lead you to God. Scripture cannot lead you to God. I cannot reveal God to you, no one can. Only God can lead you to God. You, because, you have the ability to accept or reject God are the one to establish a relationship. I have made God my friend. While this may not fully agree with Judeo-Christian or Muslim concepts of what type of relationship I should have with God. I am comfortable with it and God hasn't revealed to me that God is offended by this quality of our relationship. I was only trying to help you develope or evolve a relationship that you are comfortable with. You may not be aware of it, but, God truly is merciful, forgiving, compassionate and yes, loving. God loves you so much that God will let you set the terms just to be able to be in your life.                                             With Love and Respect,                                                           Wispring Amen. I like that wispring. God is a friend

And how many hundred pages do you have to tear out of the Judeo-christian book of divine horrors before the remaining scraps make your Imaginary Fiend look like an Imaginary Friend?

Stuart

[karmarie]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 30 2011,19:25)

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 30 2011,13:57) Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 29 2011,16:17) Well said Bod. Stu I will be honest and truthful here. I cannot lead you to God. Scripture cannot lead you to God. I cannot reveal God to you, no one can. Only God can lead you to God. You, because, you have the ability to accept or reject God are the one to establish a relationship. I have made God my friend. While this may not fully agree with Judeo-Christian or Muslim concepts of what type of relationship I should have with God. I am comfortable with it and God hasn't revealed to me that God is offended by this quality of our relationship. I was only trying to help you develope or evolve a relationship that you are comfortable with. You may not be aware of it, but, God truly is merciful, forgiving, compassionate and yes, loving. God loves you so much that God will let you set the terms just to be able to be in your life.                                             With Love and Respect,                                                           Wispring Amen. I like that wispring. God is a friend And how many hundred pages do you have to tear out of the Judeo-christian book of divine horrors before the remaining scraps make your Imaginary Fiend look like an Imaginary Friend? Stuart

i dont need to rip out any pages of the book Stuart because, God looks after me. God gives us food every day without fail and God keeps us safe.

I realise there are people who dont have the simple things I have, and I realise there are people also, who have a lot more, but I am gratefull for what I do have. Even if, in the end, all it is, is the sunshine and being alive…I will be grateful.

And I know God is fair. So all of those who have never had a fair go in this world …and believed in him will be blessed with something much greater, as it says so in the scripture.

I realise we have to go through things and will do so more soon, but God warns his people on what is coming up beforehand. And gives the reason why.

I know God as my friend is always there. I can turn to God, ask God things, cry, tell God my secrets, tell God of my happiness. I know God already knows anyway. But thats OK.

And I know that when I trust God with any decisions I have to make, God always knows better than me.

If you think my God is imaginary, well thats OK. Thats for you to think, not me.

Look after yourself Stuart. Nice talking with you.

[Stu]

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 30 2011,19:38)

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 30 2011,19:25) Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 30 2011,13:57) Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 29 2011,16:17) Well said Bod. Stu I will be honest and truthful here. I cannot lead you to God. Scripture cannot lead you to God. I cannot reveal God to you, no one can. Only God can lead you to God. You, because, you have the ability to accept or reject God are the one to establish a relationship. I have made God my friend. While this may not fully agree with Judeo-Christian or Muslim concepts of what type of relationship I should have with God. I am comfortable with it and God hasn't revealed to me that God is offended by this quality of our relationship. I was only trying to help you develope or evolve a relationship that you are comfortable with. You may not be aware of it, but, God truly is merciful, forgiving, compassionate and yes, loving. God loves you so much that God will let you set the terms just to be able to be in your life.                                             With Love and Respect,                                                           Wispring Amen. I like that wispring. God is a friend And how many hundred pages do you have to tear out of the Judeo-christian book of divine horrors before the remaining scraps make your Imaginary Fiend look like an Imaginary Friend? Stuart i dont need to rip out any pages of the book Stuart because, God looks after me. God gives us food every day without fail and God keeps us safe. I realise there are people who dont have the simple things I have, and I realise there are people also, who have a lot more, but I am gratefull for what I do have. Even if, in the end, all it is, is the sunshine and being alive…I will be grateful. And I know God is fair. So all of those who have never had a fair go in this world …and believed in him will be blessed with something much greater, as it says so in the scripture. I realise we have to go through things and will do so more soon, but God warns his people on what is coming up beforehand. And gives the reason why. I know God as my friend is always there. I can turn to God, ask God things, cry, tell God my secrets, tell God of my happiness. I know God already knows anyway. But thats OK. And I know that when I trust God with any decisions I have to make, God always knows better than me. If you think my God is imaginary, well thats OK. Thats for you to think, not me. Look after yourself Stuart. Nice talking with you.

And so when your god decides that the Jesus routine has not worked, and there is still evil in the world, will it still be your friend when it drowns you like it allegedly did to almost all life on earth in the past? Have you forgiven your god yet for its supposed slaughter of up to 24,000,000 of your fellow humans?

You still think this god is just when it killed Uzzah who was only trying to help?

Do you accept that you have no choice but to love it on pain of punishment? What do you think of compulsory love in a relationship? Why do you accept that you can be absolved of your responsibilities through a human sacrifice? How is that right?

Good luck with your immoral belief system! Don't forget these things are not your identity, they are only ideas in your head. It is not you that is immoral, only the ideas that have taken up residence!

Stuart

[karmarie]

Stuart, it depends what your view and belief in God is.Try seeing God in a different way. Think of all the things love is.

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