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P of the K
Quote You really cannot see universally can you? When one joins the armed forces, it is well known they have no consent with their own lives, they know what is expected or what the outcome can be. The military can become a form of religion in some families, would you criticize them as much as you do another sect for their belief?
What relevance does any of this have?Quote Give you a little hint in regards to conception, all mankind carry life inside them, when two opposites join, life is created, now, you may look at it as it is just a clump of cells, some know that they are carrying a life, which by the way if some would take life as a gift and not a curse, life may be just a bit better. When an abortion is performed, life it stopped and with your own words: 'Life is only worthless if people stop you from living yours.' So apparently, an aborted fetus is worthless.
If abortion of a foetus is the subject of an already living woman making a decision about what happens inside her own body, then yes that foetus is worthless. I don’t see what the problem is with that. You seem to be suggesting there is a problem but you have only made an emotional appeal to the word “life”. You kill or have others kill for you everyday just to survive. How do you distinguish between this life and that?Quote You take care of yourself Stuart, for as much knowledge you have attained through life, you still have much more to learn.
I would happily acknowledge that myself without having to be patronised!Stuart
No, Stuart, the point of the matter is, your view, not a third party first person view.
A women bears a still born child, she buries the child in her back yard, charges are pressed, what a terrible mother, what is the difference? Is it due to society saying the child needs a proper burial, or proof the child was really dead, or because society can see the body?
Or do you promote abortion due to it can improve stem cell research, or the fetus can be used a laboratory rats?
What scientific use does abortion have?
My apologies for any patronization you experienced.
Quote (princess of the king @ Aug. 25 2010,21:01) No, Stuart, the point of the matter is, your view, not a third party first person view. A women bears a still born child, she buries the child in her back yard, charges are pressed, what a terrible mother, what is the difference? Is it due to society saying the child needs a proper burial, or proof the child was really dead, or because society can see the body?
Or do you promote abortion due to it can improve stem cell research, or the fetus can be used a laboratory rats?
What scientific use does abortion have?
My apologies for any patronization you experienced.
The difference is the foetus does not have an independent existence, and the thing on which it depends has a right of medical consent. A born baby does have an independent existence and is not reliant on the ordered programme of hormones and feeding that a foetus receives via the umbilical cord.Stuart
Quote (princess of the king @ Aug. 13 2010,23:03) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 03 2010,17:31) Are you willing to give it up so people with a particular delusion can tell you what you can and cannot have done to your own body? Life is only worthless if people stop you from living yours.
Stuart
Stuart,You really cannot see universally can you? When one joins the armed forces, it is well known they have no consent with their own lives, they know what is expected or what the outcome can be. The military can become a form of religion in some families, would you criticize them as much as you do another sect for their belief?
Give you a little hint in regards to conception, all mankind carry life inside them, when two opposites join, life is created, now, you may look at it as it is just a clump of cells, some know that they are carrying a life, which by the way if some would take life as a gift and not a curse, life may be just a bit better.
When an abortion is performed, life it stopped and with your own words: 'Life is only worthless if people stop you from living yours.' So apparently, an aborted fetus is worthless.
You take care of yourself Stuart, for as much knowledge you have attained through life, you still have much more to learn.
Greetings Stu…… You should consider yourself blessed that your mom did not share the same opinion on life than yourself….Abortion is the taking of life…Where you and I could agree is that it is ones own personal sin and no government should be involved in any facit of it ….Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 25 2010,23:18) Quote (princess of the king @ Aug. 13 2010,23:03) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 03 2010,17:31) Are you willing to give it up so people with a particular delusion can tell you what you can and cannot have done to your own body? Life is only worthless if people stop you from living yours.
Stuart
Stuart,You really cannot see universally can you? When one joins the armed forces, it is well known they have no consent with their own lives, they know what is expected or what the outcome can be. The military can become a form of religion in some families, would you criticize them as much as you do another sect for their belief?
Give you a little hint in regards to conception, all mankind carry life inside them, when two opposites join, life is created, now, you may look at it as it is just a clump of cells, some know that they are carrying a life, which by the way if some would take life as a gift and not a curse, life may be just a bit better.
When an abortion is performed, life it stopped and with your own words: 'Life is only worthless if people stop you from living yours.' So apparently, an aborted fetus is worthless.
You take care of yourself Stuart, for as much knowledge you have attained through life, you still have much more to learn.
Greetings Stu…… You should consider yourself blessed that your mom did not share the same opinion on life than yourself….Abortion is the taking of life…Where you and I could agree is that it is ones own personal sin and no government should be involved in any facit of it ….
I disagree that the word sin has any useful meaning.I have got to the point where I can be grateful that I was not aborted as a foetus, but had it happened I would never have known anything about it, and I would also not have wanted to have been my mother's cause of death.
Abattoirs involve the taking of life, as does killing carrots. Where are the boundaries of this absolute principle that life is sacred?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 25 2010,21:59) Quote (princess of the king @ Aug. 25 2010,21:01) No, Stuart, the point of the matter is, your view, not a third party first person view. A women bears a still born child, she buries the child in her back yard, charges are pressed, what a terrible mother, what is the difference? Is it due to society saying the child needs a proper burial, or proof the child was really dead, or because society can see the body?
Or do you promote abortion due to it can improve stem cell research, or the fetus can be used a laboratory rats?
What scientific use does abortion have?
My apologies for any patronization you experienced.
The difference is the foetus does not have an independent existence, and the thing on which it depends has a right of medical consent. A born baby does have an independent existence and is not reliant on the ordered programme of hormones and feeding that a foetus receives via the umbilical cord.Stuart
It is well and fine you use scientifically language to apply your view, which of course makes it much easier for you to believe in your view.So, when an elderly person relies on h20 to survive, they are no longer consider an independent individual, so the medical consent of either, the husband or child can make the decision to abort their life, since they are no longer independent.
Once again, how does science use abortion for research?
Quote (princess of the king @ Aug. 29 2010,01:57) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 25 2010,21:59) Quote (princess of the king @ Aug. 25 2010,21:01) No, Stuart, the point of the matter is, your view, not a third party first person view. A women bears a still born child, she buries the child in her back yard, charges are pressed, what a terrible mother, what is the difference? Is it due to society saying the child needs a proper burial, or proof the child was really dead, or because society can see the body?
Or do you promote abortion due to it can improve stem cell research, or the fetus can be used a laboratory rats?
What scientific use does abortion have?
My apologies for any patronization you experienced.
The difference is the foetus does not have an independent existence, and the thing on which it depends has a right of medical consent. A born baby does have an independent existence and is not reliant on the ordered programme of hormones and feeding that a foetus receives via the umbilical cord.Stuart
It is well and fine you use scientifically language to apply your view, which of course makes it much easier for you to believe in your view.So, when an elderly person relies on h20 to survive, they are no longer consider an independent individual, so the medical consent of either, the husband or child can make the decision to abort their life, since they are no longer independent.
Once again, how does science use abortion for research?
I'm not sure what scientific research has to do with it. Abortions are not performed so scientists can harvest tissue.I appreciate that one's comprehension of an idea can be shaped by the availability of the language to describe it, but in this case it is not the language of the matter but the facts of it that are supplied by science. Do these have a bearing on the question of a woman's right to medical consent? I think probably the scientific facts are more a counter to the fatuous emotional appeals made by anti-abortionists. Although I don't think they have stopped to consider the issue rationally, typically anti-abortionists moronically scream that abortion is murder of a human, but actually anatomically the foetus does not have many of the characteristics we call human, early on it looks more like a fish foetus from the outside, and it certainly does not have the key human characteristic of a large functioning brain or ability to sense pain until quite a long way through gestation. The brain does not really start on its uniquely human development pathway until after birth.
The elderly are capable of making decisions of medical consent. What situation did you have in mind regarding dependence in adult humans? Did you mean when a person is incapable of getting water to drink for themselves? That person has already demonstrated their independence and capacity for planning for such an event, for example when voting for a government that makes provision for the care of elderly people. Part of that person's taxes paid during working life are devoted to maintaining their independence in the face of decreased capacity.
Or do you mean a case where a person is completely disabled, for example when reliant on life-support technology? I guess that as soon as life support technology was invented there was a simultaneous commitment made to continue to develop other medical technology and maybe a cure for the debilitating condition in question. A person's medical consent almost certainly favours “keep me alive until you can cure me”.
Foetuses cannot make any of those decisions for themselves, actually the word “decision” is irrelevant, and meantime the anti-abortionist is prepared to sacrifice the right of a fully-grown, thinking, loving and decision-capable human to decide what happens inside her own body. That is twisted thinking, usually resulting from blind adherence to religious dictates, in my opinion. I guess you could have a rational and compelling case against abortion that did not depend on emotional shock value, but I have never seen it. I'm sure I could use the same kind of emotional shock to convince people that heart surgery is evil.
I still think the ultimate question is whether an anti-abortionist would be willing to give up his or her medical consent.
Stuart
Quote I'm not sure what scientific research has to do with it. Abortions are not performed so scientists can harvest tissue. Oh, Stuart, it is most certain that science does not use aborted fetuses to study, why on earth would they want or need to.
Maybe, they should consider having the medical consent of the father for abortion also, well you know those pro lifer's, with there casual go at it, most likely they do not know who the father is anyhow.
Quote The brain does not really start on its uniquely human development pathway until after birth. This statement you may want to retract, for some the start never comes, no matter what method you use to teach.
Quote ability to sense pain until quite a long way through gestation Your most positive of this?
Quote A person's medical consent almost certainly favours “keep me alive until you can cure me”. These are the one's that fear death.
So Stuart, when should abortion be considered taking a life, first, second or third trimester?
Stuart,
For such one the confesses to have sound knowledge, you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel with your statement, it is alright though, I would expect nothing less from one that cannot understand matters of the heart or cannot break the barrier of love.
Oh, by the by, since you take on the carrot view, how do you like your fetuses, young and soft, boiled, baked or raw?
It is a perfectly valid question. If you cannot say where the maxim not to take life stops, then the case against abortion that you are presenting is nothing but emotional appeal and smoke and mirrors. You are generalising wildly in regards to me personally, a caricature that I don't recognise, and those I love and am loved by would not recognise either.
What actually is your ethical / pragmatic argument against abortion that would be good enough to overcome the right to autonomy over one's own body?
Stuart
You call my view an emotional appeal, as of yet you have no scientific reason for abortion.
By the by, apes do not perform abortions on one another, maybe you do have a point in regards to your view of the origin of life.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 26 2010,17:26) Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 25 2010,23:18) Quote (princess of the king @ Aug. 13 2010,23:03) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 03 2010,17:31) Are you willing to give it up so people with a particular delusion can tell you what you can and cannot have done to your own body? Life is only worthless if people stop you from living yours.
Stuart
Stuart,You really cannot see universally can you? When one joins the armed forces, it is well known they have no consent with their own lives, they know what is expected or what the outcome can be. The military can become a form of religion in some families, would you criticize them as much as you do another sect for their belief?
Give you a little hint in regards to conception, all mankind carry life inside them, when two opposites join, life is created, now, you may look at it as it is just a clump of cells, some know that they are carrying a life, which by the way if some would take life as a gift and not a curse, life may be just a bit better.
When an abortion is performed, life it stopped and with your own words: 'Life is only worthless if people stop you from living yours.' So apparently, an aborted fetus is worthless.
You take care of yourself Stuart, for as much knowledge you have attained through life, you still have much more to learn.
Greetings Stu…… You should consider yourself blessed that your mom did not share the same opinion on life than yourself….Abortion is the taking of life…Where you and I could agree is that it is ones own personal sin and no government should be involved in any facit of it ….
I disagree that the word sin has any useful meaning.I have got to the point where I can be grateful that I was not aborted as a foetus, but had it happened I would never have known anything about it, and I would also not have wanted to have been my mother's cause of death.
Abattoirs involve the taking of life, as does killing carrots. Where are the boundaries of this absolute principle that life is sacred?
Stuart
Greetings Stu….. I have killed and devoured many carrots with out any mindfull consideration as to whether they were baby carrots or full grown carrots……The term fetus is convenient for those who would deny life within…. which, started with conception….At conception your genetic composition is present and evolving to create a discernable DNA pool which will determin many facits of who your are,this to me is the beginning of life….
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