Context

Participant

Hi RS,
You assume surely
“So if Christ was going to the Father, and he was later going to bring the Apostles to him when he is with the Father, AND GOD IS ALWAYS IN HEAVEN, then persons once men will enter heaven.”

Jn14 does not say where the mansions of Christ are.
But the final home of men is earth.
Will that be a comedown?

January 30, 2009 at 4:18 am#119664

Rabsheka

Participant

Hi David,

Me thinks you have been copping a roasting while I have been away having Nick pull a log out of my eye, getting a haircut and also watering his camel. However, the scripture he quotes above I indeed intended to discuss with you. Now the point is that while the man who approached was a jew under the law, Our Lord was telling him that if he led his life decently according to the behavoural parts of the Law he would have the prospect of everlasting life on the new earth, because it would shape what he had DONE in this one. It is therefore reasonable to say that if one follows his consciouence and is meek (unaggressive), then he will receive mercy and inherit the earth, which is your hope.

The problem is is that there is no means of certainty for this, for the standard of judgement for the second death is according to God only, and he has not made it privy to us. Why? For as our Lord said and as I have seen on many JW publications themselves, “seek you first the kingdom”. And those who do seek it are forbidden to judge aren't they? Moreover, those who are flesh who passage into the millenium are those of the nations who survive Armageddon are they not? Yet Our Lord will sheppard them with a rod of iron harshly won't he? And some will fall in death during it even though a century old but restored to physical youth, so Isaiah says doesn't he? And satan will lead the majority remaining in the millenium, Gog and Magog against the Holy Ones to a death by fire won't he?

So, what does it profit you to spend much of your time knocking on doors preaching your pearls to those unrighteous who, at the mention of our Lord's name, would trample them into the ground, mistaking them for the pearl among pearls that a man sold all others to buy? David, by recruiting for 24 men who would not offer you what they tell you they have is vanity. I commend you to turn and live a commendable life, or join those who, though they stumble often, serve Christ in spirit and in truth.

May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ find you

January 30, 2009 at 12:19 pm#119682

Rabsheka

Participant

High Nick

I try to asume nothing. But you are right, the final place of men will be the earth as it always has been. BUT THOSE WHO WERE ONCE MEN WILL ENTER HEAVEN. The mansions and rooms are God's by the way as our Lord himself said:

Meaning of course he is going to prepare a place in His Father's house for them.

You are showing all the signs of becoming a resistor. Now look that up in the hebrew.

May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

January 30, 2009 at 4:31 pm#119689

Participant

Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2009,12:46)

The BIBLE says that holy ones receive the kingdom, make up the kingdom, are the kingdom, along with Christ. It says they “rule” and are kings.
No one has yet answered who they rule over.

Hey David…people will be resurrected right? There is your answer

January 30, 2009 at 6:05 pm#119697

Participant

Hi RS,
You believe that heaven is the house of God?
Can you prove this scripturally?

Judges 21:2
And the people came to the house of God, and abode there till even before God, and lifted up their voices, and wept sore;

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Mt5
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Those that do not yet agree with you are not resistors of God are they?

Can you show any men in heaven in the visions of Heaven that John had in revelation?

January 30, 2009 at 6:22 pm#119703

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2009,05:05)

Hi RS,
You believe that heaven is the house of God?
Can you prove this scripturally?

Judges 21:2
And the people came to the house of God, and abode there till even before God, and lifted up their voices, and wept sore;

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Mt5
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Those that do not yet agree with you are not resistors of God are they?

Can you show any men in heaven in the visions of Heven that John had in revelation?

Revelation Ch. 7 and 14….men are shown before the thrown of GOD….in the temple of GOD…which is shown to be in heaven….EVERYTHING for that matter in revelation that refers to GOD or his temple which represents his presence is shown to be in HEAVEN..

January 30, 2009 at 6:24 pm#119704

Participant

Hi DK,
You may be right.
But earth is man's final inheritance?

January 30, 2009 at 6:28 pm#119706

Participant

For Nick….

Revelation 4:1
[ The Throne in Heaven ] After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Revelation 11:12
Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Revelation 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

Revelation 15:5
After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened.

Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Revelation 19:6
Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

just a few scriptures

January 30, 2009 at 6:31 pm#119709

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2009,05:24)

Hi DK,
You may be right.
But earth is man's final inheritance?

Nick…

You know what…I don't know…I think you have a good argument…and I think the other side has a good argument…

I'm of the opinion that you will end up 1 of 3 places ultimately…Either Heaven, Earth, or Sheol

January 31, 2009 at 6:00 am#119766

Participant

I am reposting this post for clarity as I do not know how to edit one that is already posted.

dirtyknections wrote:

Quote

I'm of the opinion that you will end up 1 of 3 places ultimately…Either Heaven, Earth, or Sheol

I assume hell means the fiery lake and not Sheol as it does in some New Testament scriptures. Hell is a Norse concept and not a Greek one and has been applied to both Sheol and the fiery lake by translators. Sheol on the other hand is the grave to which both the righteous and unrighteous go after death to sleep and await Judgment day at which time God will Judge them and send the wicked to the fiery lake and the righteous will ascend to be with him. Even Jesus went to Sheol for a few days but was woken up by God on the 3rd day to later ascend to heaven.

January 31, 2009 at 6:15 am#119769

Participant

Hi KW,
Did Jesus sleep in Sheol?

The gates of Hades could not hold him or us

Acts 2:27
because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;

Matthew 16:18
`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

January 31, 2009 at 7:58 am#119772

Participant

Hi DK,
Sheol will no longer be a possibility.
Death and Hades are cast into the lake of Fire.
There will no need for places of waiting at the time of the END

January 31, 2009 at 8:02 am#119773

Participant

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Did Jesus sleep in Sheol?

The gates of Hades could not hold him or us

They certainly did not hold him since he did in fact rise from Sheol on the 3rd day but he did sleep in Sheol until then. He is a righteous man and so did not deserve the price he paid but he paid it for us. Since he did not deserve death God being Just raised him from the grave.

January 31, 2009 at 8:19 am#119774

Participant

Hi KW,
1Peter3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

January 31, 2009 at 9:36 am#119786

Participant

Nick Hassan writes:

Quote

1Peter3:

Quote

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I do believe that if I understand your interpretation correctly, though I may not since you are not really sharing it but I am going by what you seem to imply, that you misunderstand what Peter write.

The spirits in prison for instance is most likely speaking of those who are in servitude to sin even as it is written:

Psalms 107:11-16(NIV) reads:

Quote

for they had rebelled against the words of God
and despised the counsel of the Most High.
So he subjected them to bitter labor;
they stumbled, and there was no one to help.
Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.
He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom
and broke away their chains.
Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for men,
for he breaks down gates of bronze
and cuts through bars of iron.

Then in verse 20 Peter hits a whole new idea though still speaking of a particular group of those that were bound to sin namely the people of Noah’s time and those who were saved from the destruction of that would by flood. He then goes on in verse 21 and later to specifically say that the flood SYMBOLIZED baptism that currently saves those that believe from being slaves to sin by the resurrection and Kingship of Jesus our Lord.

Peter is certainly not the only one to make the same point as Jesus himself made it in John 8:31-34 and Paul agrees in Romans 6:15-18.

If you are interested in the history of the flawed but seemingly common interpretation of 1 Peter 3 then look up the Apocrypha gospel of Peter. If the Catholic Church is correct that gospel is a Gnostic gospel though strangely the Catholic Church seemed to have absorbed some Gnostic ideas.

January 31, 2009 at 9:51 am#119788

Participant

Hi KW,

The “spirits in prison” seem to be specifically linked to the time of Noah when men perished without access to the understanding of the Law which had yet to be given to men.

1 Peter4
5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

January 31, 2009 at 11:31 am#119795

Participant

Nick Hassan:

Quote

The “spirits in prison” seem to be specifically linked to the time of Noah when men perished without access to the understanding of the Law which had yet to be given to men.

Peter is making a point about how belief in Jesus Christ saves people from slavery to sin and he used the flood as an example to emphasize his point. That is clear from verse 21.

I have read 1 Peter 3:18-21 which does sound like he is speaking of the spirit of Jesus taking a trip through time to preach to the people of Noah’s time. I read the account of the flood and see no evidence that he did or did not do so though it was God and not Jesus that spoke to Noah. There is no account of such time travel being used by God at any other time which does not say it did not happen but makes me doubtful that it did. A second interpretation is he preached to the dead which contradicts scripture in at least two places.

The first is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man where the rich man is told:

Luke 16:26(NIV) reads:

Quote

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.

It is a parable and may therefore be a fiction but I am not sure of that. The second scripture though is not a parable and reads:

Hebrews 9:27(NIV) reads:

Quote

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

To refer back to the first interpretation in Hebrews 9:26 we are also told:

Hebrews 9:26(NIV)

Quote

Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This appears to contradict him appearing in the time of Noah even if just in the Spirit.

Remember we are also told when speaking of His people under the old covenant:

Hebrews 20:19-20(NIV):

Quote

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

I have only to conclude that some aspects of 1 Peter 3:18-21 are hard to understand as some apparent interpretations contradict other scriptures and I know of no other supporting scriptures for those interpretations.

As to 1 Peter 4:5-6 it seems clearly to be talking to the living as you can see by the entire context of verse 1 through 7 and beyond. Verse 4-5 is speaking of those that persecute Christians and declaring they will be subject to judgment from God along with everyone else. Verse 6 is merely declaring that people who heard the gospel and believed are who have since died in body are spiritually alive and will rise to be physically and spiritually like Jesus.

1 Peter 4:1-7(NIV):

Quote

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

I mentioned the gospel of Peter because it is my belief that Gnostic poison has infiltrated the Christian Churches and evolved over time. The idea of spirits acting separate from a body is not generally backed up in scripture. The only time I know of it occurring is when the Witch of Endor summoned Samuel from the grave and Samuel said “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”. I believe that after death one sleeps in Sheol, which seems to be the common grave of mankind as the Hebrew people bury their dead, as Daniel was told “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.” It does seem though from the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus that there is difference between the righteous and the unrighteous in Sheol and that they can communicate with one another. It also seems sleep may be too strong of a term as rest is what was told to Daniel and would agree with what Abraham and the righteous experience.

January 31, 2009 at 6:07 pm#119812