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Regards David and Nick, and others
Nick, I will leave the quoting of scripture mostly to you, for you do well on the behalf of the Holy Ones in this regard. But David, I do not mean Nick is not a Holy One but that he is a particular Holy One doing a particular service in behalf of his Lord and holy brothers in this instance. He is also right when he mentions the addresses in these scriptures are in the mode of speach called a parallelism, which was a jewish writing form Paul would have learned most likely as a pharasee. However, it was not just a style of writing, but also a means Paul used to show us the structure of the church, or more correctly inside it. In fact the old testament is full of it, for the Israelites found that in using it they could fit meaning both in the words and between them. And I would like to say that it is those who are Holy Ones who pick up these nuances just as a matter of course through the Holy Spirit within them. But alas, we are talking to one of flesh only here, who will understand it only in the way he has been taught using the wisdom of men.
Now I have had these discussions on the earthly hope with JWs at my door many times. And it is hard to overcome the training they have received, by answering the questions in the little writing at the bottom about what is said in the big writing directly above, in each and every watchtower. Accordingly, I think the only way to at least help them to see the free and glorious gift our Lord has offered any who would ask is to sidestep the arena of this type of debate and to appeal to the sence of honesty anyone who claims to be a christian must by definition have.
Accordingly, you David would consider me even worse than those who ignore the existance of God altogether, because I actively preach a gospel that is contra to things that the society has taught is “truth”, and am therfore, at this time, a son of Satan. However, if you would snatch me out of the fire, would you answer me two questions directly and in all honesty as follows:
If there is a heavenly hope and an earthly hope, why do you personally settle for or limit yourself to an earthly hope?
I know that you believe there are only a handfull of those with a heavenly hope now living. What attributes do they possess that places them in this class that you do not have.
I have been honest in my feelings towards your testing of my faith that you believe at least wrong and at worst blasphemy, and feel I have answered your tests on these scriptures in a general way. So, as I appeal to God to lead you to the only certain reward he offers, I would ask you for the same kindness in answering these matters.
Regards
RS
As for parallelisms, I know they exist. Proverbs is filled with them. I'm not sure the verses in question are parallelisms. I believe the other scriptures I quoted (and many I didn't) bear this out.
Quote Nick, I will leave the quoting of scripture mostly to you, for you do well on the behalf of the Holy Ones in this regard. But David, I do not mean Nick is not a Holy One but that he is a particular Holy One doing a particular service in behalf of his Lord and holy brothers in this instance. Quote If there is a heavenly hope and an earthly hope, why do you personally settle for or limit yourself to an earthly hope? First, would you still consider Nick a “holy one” if he believes no one goes to heaven, ever? That is his belief.
As for your question, it is not I who chooses.
ROMANS 8:15-17
“For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”Quote Now I have had these discussions on the earthly hope with JWs at my door many times.
If you are suggesting that people will not reside on the earth, that is a discussion you would scripturaly not do well in.Quote Accordingly, I think the only way to at least help them to see the free and glorious gift our Lord has offered any who would ask is to sidestep the arena of this type of debate
By “this type of debate” do you mean scriptural? I do see the free and undeserved gift of everlasting life set before me. Some, of course, have a special privilege of being kings (rulers), judges, and priests. My question to you, is, who do they rule over? The Bible says the Christ has Joint heirs of the “heavenly kingdom,” and it says that they will rule with Christ for the thousand years. Who are they ruling?Many times (4 I think) the Bible meantions “new heavens AND a new earth.”
Again, we see two groups–one, the rulers and one the subjects.Quote would you answer me two questions directly and in all honesty as follows: Sure.
Quote If there is a heavenly hope and an earthly hope, why do you personally settle for or limit yourself to an earthly hope?
Let me ask you a question: If some men are kings and some are subjects, why do you personally limit yourself to being a subject?
I am quite content with everlasting life in paradise conditions, as God originally purposed for humans.Quote I know that you believe there are only a handfull of those with a heavenly hope now living. What attributes do they possess that places them in this class that you do not have. The Christ did not glorify himself by making himself high priest, but rather, was glorified by God, who declared him his son.
Similarly, our feelings or aspirations are not the call. Otherwise it would imply that we do our own calling. Speaking of our priesthood, the Apostle declares, ‘No man taketh this honor to himself but he that is called of God,’ (Heb. 5:4).Quote So, as I appeal to God to lead you to the only certain reward he offers, I would ask you for the same kindness in answering these matters.
I just want to be clear on this. Do you believe your reward is in heaven and that the earth will be destroyed with no one left?Hi rabsheka. Sorry, I missed your first page posts.
[/QUOTE]I was, however baptised or “christened” as a baby by a COE priest.
But that is one of the problems isn't it. Does receiving baptism from someone who you may later consider as possibly unrighteous count.
Quote Nope. Nor does it “count” if you are a baby. Nor does sprinkling water on your head constitute “baptism.”
I come to this place seeking like minded persons
Good luck finding any. Sure, you'll find one person who doesn't believe the trinity, or who believes this or that. But finding someone who believes just as you do….on here….I have not yet seen two people agree on everything.
For me the very fact that each person not belonging to a denomination has their own unique beliefs indicates that the majority of them have to be wrong. They are following men as well–themselves.
David wrote:
Quote For me the very fact that each person not belonging to a denomination has their own unique beliefs indicates that the majority of them have to be wrong. They are following men as well–themselves. That is an illogical conclusion. The best you could say is that one could be correct as there is only one true gospel but they all cannot be right. Still I find it a good place to get those beliefs you have tested and see if they truly come from God or you are being misled because you did not think to look at an event in another way. As always you need to let God be your guide.
Greetings David, Kerwin & Nick
Firstly, I would like to clear up the matter of Nick's beliefs. For he began a topic called “The Scapegoat”, where he initially showed a certain reticence to declair his beliefs, but just fired back quarzi related scriptures. Now I won't go into it for it is all there for everybody to see, But David has made this charge against you Nick, that you do not believe that any man goes to heaven, ever! Now this is a big deal for me because it flies in the face of everything that Christianity is. No. Really! So, I would ask you if this is indeed true. And I will not accept anything other than a yes or no answer. For if you do otherwise or even nothing, I will consign you to a place of indifference as far as I'm concerned, because anything else is from the evil one.
David, in your reply you said “I am quite content with everlasting life in paradise conditions, as God originally purposed for humans.” Thank you for your candor, so I will do everything I said I would do. But first let me go and find a way to type into something other than this little box and find out how you do those little quoty things.
May the undeserved kindness of our Lord be with you.
RS
Hi RS,
David believes with his JW friends that a small group of supermen go to live in heaven and administer the kingdom of God while the second class citizens of the kingdom remain of earth. It certainly is a very popular worldly myth that good people go to heaven when they die and everyone is good in his own eyes.
Scripture rather offers us in Jesus the mansions of Christ[jn14] till we who are in him return to rule and reign with him on earth [Rev19, Rev 20, rev 21]The meek shall inherit the earth
Quote (david @ Jan. 29 2009,18:27) For me the very fact that each person not belonging to a denomination has their own unique beliefs indicates that the majority of them have to be wrong. They are following men as well–themselves.
Wow..talking about the pot calling the kettle black….I thought you would have awaken from that cult induced dream already..guess not…
David did you know that at Gilead (missionary school for you non JW's lol) The society teaches that every major prophecy and event in the bible has modern day parallel with the Watchtower Society…they go as far to say the most major bible events forshadow the Watchtower Society!!! You don't learn that at the hall Dave!!! You gotta go to missionary school for the good stuff 🙂
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 30 2009,05:26) The meek shall inherit the earth
The scripture you are quoting is referring to the promised land brother nick…Hi David,
You said
“First, would you still consider Nick a “holy one” if he believes no one goes to heaven, ever? That is his belief.”Not so .
We can follow the Son but I believe our future HOME is earth.Is holiness in your eyes according to correct knowledge?
Then the JWs are in big trouble.Hi,
This thread is about the most abused aspect of truth-context.
Universalism is a classic case.Teachings given to the saved are offered to the unsaved as a new gospel.
Quote (david @ Jan. 29 2009,18:12) As for parallelisms, I know they exist. Proverbs is filled with them. I'm not sure the verses in question are parallelisms. I believe the other scriptures I quoted (and many I didn't) bear this out. Quote Nick, I will leave the quoting of scripture mostly to you, for you do well on the behalf of the Holy Ones in this regard. But David, I do not mean Nick is not a Holy One but that he is a particular Holy One doing a particular service in behalf of his Lord and holy brothers in this instance. Quote If there is a heavenly hope and an earthly hope, why do you personally settle for or limit yourself to an earthly hope? First, would you still consider Nick a “holy one” if he believes no one goes to heaven, ever? That is his belief.
As for your question, it is not I who chooses.
ROMANS 8:15-17
“For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”Quote Now I have had these discussions on the earthly hope with JWs at my door many times.
If you are suggesting that people will not reside on the earth, that is a discussion you would scripturaly not do well in.Quote Accordingly, I think the only way to at least help them to see the free and glorious gift our Lord has offered any who would ask is to sidestep the arena of this type of debate
By “this type of debate” do you mean scriptural? I do see the free and undeserved gift of everlasting life set before me. Some, of course, have a special privilege of being kings (rulers), judges, and priests. My question to you, is, who do they rule over? The Bible says the Christ has Joint heirs of the “heavenly kingdom,” and it says that they will rule with Christ for the thousand years. Who are they ruling?Many times (4 I think) the Bible meantions “new heavens AND a new earth.”
Again, we see two groups–one, the rulers and one the subjects.Quote would you answer me two questions directly and in all honesty as follows: Sure.
Quote If there is a heavenly hope and an earthly hope, why do you personally settle for or limit yourself to an earthly hope?
Let me ask you a question: If some men are kings and some are subjects, why do you personally limit yourself to being a subject?
I am quite content with everlasting life in paradise conditions, as God originally purposed for humans.Quote I know that you believe there are only a handfull of those with a heavenly hope now living. What attributes do they possess that places them in this class that you do not have. The Christ did not glorify himself by making himself high priest, but rather, was glorified by God, who declared him his son.
Similarly, our feelings or aspirations are not the call. Otherwise it would imply that we do our own calling. Speaking of our priesthood, the Apostle declares, ‘No man taketh this honor to himself but he that is called of God,’ (Heb. 5:4).Quote So, as I appeal to God to lead you to the only certain reward he offers, I would ask you for the same kindness in answering these matters.
I just want to be clear on this. Do you believe your reward is in heaven and that the earth will be destroyed with no one left?
David for the record….the scripture quoted in Romans * as to why YOU don't see yourself as having a heavenly hope is pure JW dribble…David when you go to people's door what hope to you present to them? The “earthly hope” thats what
When was the last time you read a WT or Awake mag that emphasized the “hevenly hope” and what Christ offered to his followers? NEVER…because there never has and never will be a WT or Awake that presents the POSSIBILITY of the average rank and file reader being a “HOLY ONE”
I can tell by your thoughts that you were either RAISED or a JW or became one when very young….So simply put the reason you don't think you have a heavenly hope is because from a YOUNG AGE you were told that you didn't…same as anyone else who was raised in or converted when very young…
For all you non JW's I present concrete evidence as to why the leaders of the JW's don't want people (JW or not) to believe they have a heavenly hope….
simply put if they advocated the heavenly hope as the REAL hope laid out by Christ to his followers then that would DESTROY some of their most profound claims
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 30 2009,08:14) Hi DK,
No David was brought up a catholic I believe.
Really..then he must have been a JW for many years…he reminds me exactly of my father….he was brought up catholic..and converted into the cult when he was 21…he is 50 now…so he has been a JW for almost 30 years….Basically….he is (almost) totally indoctrinated….David only preaches what he is taught….The JW want and create puppets..not free thinking Christians bound by the Law of love and faith..and guided by the freedom that it gives…
Hi,
If context is not relevant why are we not all carrying beds?MK2
11I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.Quote I can tell by your thoughts that you were either RAISED or a JW or became one when very young Wrong again.
Quote Hi DK,
No David was brought up a catholic I believe.correct.
Rebshaka, you said:
Quote Regards David and Nick, and others Nick, I will leave the quoting of scripture mostly to you, for you do well on the behalf of the Holy Ones in this regard.
And
Quote I come to this place seeking like minded persons Nick says:
I believe our future HOME is earth.
I truth, he believes no one goes to heaven ever. I've had many discussions with him on this.And I said this:
Quote For me the very fact that each person not belonging to a denomination has their own unique beliefs indicates that the majority of them have to be wrong. They are following men as well–themselves. Everyone on here (with the exception of me, as far as I can tell) has a very unique set of beliefs. At first, it seems you believe many of the same things. But when you actually ask each other what they believe or observe how they act–each of them is following a very distinct, very individual set of beliefs.
That tells me that logically, they cannot all be understanding the Bible correctly. Either God is a trinity or he isn't. Either Jesus pre-existed or he didn't. Either God tortures people or he doesn't. Etc, etc, etc, etc.
One moderator (t8) believes God doesn't torture people.
The other moderator (Nick) believes they do.And these are the two moderators!
Rebshaka, you were considering Nick a “holy one” but now you think he is lost. We are too quick to label anyone who believes in Christ or has a form of worship, as a “holy one.” As I've said, half the U.S. population believe they are born again. If only that were true, what a different place the U.S. would be.
I find it absurd to the extreme that you accepted Nick as a “holy one,” only to now learn that what he believes “flies in the face of everything that Christianity is,” as you said.
The BIBLE says that holy ones receive the kingdom, make up the kingdom, are the kingdom, along with Christ. It says they “rule” and are kings.
No one has yet answered who they rule over.Hi David,
Does your prescribed set of doctrines prevent you from learning and even correcting your masters?Have you stopped trying to make it into the top 144,000 JWs that you think are heavenly royalty?
Are you resigned to being second class JW toiling away in servitude?
Guess what-being a JW saves nobody.Where have I said God tortures people?
God is love. He does not torture anyone.Hi,
Meanwhile context shows us that we do need to sort what is for us and what is not.
As gentiles we have never been under the OT law.The rich young man asked what he should DO.
What we DO is works-works of the LAWMt19
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
We follow the way of perfection, putting on the robe of righteousness of the Son of God, which covers our stink from the pigsty.
MT 19
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
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