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Hi Tim,
God sent Christ.
A mission of mercy to give men an opportunity to avoid His wrath.
All had sinned and fallen short of His glory so he made a way for all to find His forgiveness.
Jn3
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Tim, maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong?
I see a lot of “just” acts in the OT and in the NT. There seems to be strict code of faith that is required OR you are punished in some way. Jesus also told us that this is true. I think he knew it for himself as well and that is why he countered Satan with scripture!
We are children and God is our Father. I know that when my children do not obey me they are disciplined. I do this for their own good. I do this so that they understand rules are set in place for a reason; sometimes that reason is to protect them from themselves. I do allow my children to question certain rules and consequences, however, that doesn't mean that certain rules and consequences change. Why? Because I said so!
It might be the same with God and Jesus?
As adult children we may not always like the way things are or how our parents run things, but that doesn't mean anything will change. After all, they are still the parents and what they say goes! Right? What are the options? Run away……. The Prodical Son tried that, I confess I've tried it too, but there is safety at home even when we don't agree with the rules.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 22 2008,11:32) Hi KJ,
When the gnostic influence got busy.However I protest at your attack on the inspiration of Scripture.
I believe God is trustworthy and capable and protects what He has given us as truth through His servants.
To not trust God in this matter is rather to trust our own judgement.
Ps 12
6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever
And how can we be assured that the words of Yahweh are the words before us in B&W today? There is a much greater chance of validity with the OT (in its original Hebrew/Aramaic)because of the meticulous care of the Masorites, but the NT was not taken care of so well. There are so many variants that the best we have today is a very close approximation to what was originally written by the various writers. On top of that, the gospels were not written by eye-witnesses, but were records of memories and oral tradition. So we have to take it all with a grain of salt.
Quote Ps 19
7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Ps 119
72The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.
Jesus relied on the OT and quoted it to prove his mission.Notice the “the law of the LORD” here Nick. It did not say the bible was perfect, but the Law, or Torah.
Quote So If you can accept that the oT is truth then what of the NT. Lk 24
27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.If you choose to deny the truth of scripture then you are on your own in your search for understanding and we should not follow you. We should follow Jesus who believed.
Pr 3
Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:4So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
I accept them both as the closest we'll ever have. But I also accept that God didn't write the Bible, men did under inspiration. That's basically what Paul said in his letter to Timothy. He never said it was without human error, he simply said scripture was inspired by God and profitable for our instruction. And he said this long before any canon was formulated so that does not mean Paul put his stamp of approval on the NT we have today.Hi KJ,
Why quote Paul if to you his words are under suspicion?
You have to rest faith somewhere outside yourself.
To trust the Word is to trust the God who wrote it through menQuote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,06:00) So we have to take it all with a grain of salt.
You mean to say, we shouldn't take it very seriously?I've been thinking abou this Kejonn – maybe God has intended that his Word be sort of cryptic? Maybe it is only through mystery that we come close to knowing him? Those of us who desire more are given more through his Spirit – only he knows who we are.
I thinking questioning is good. No one will be able to convince me that it's not.
But I think there comes a time when God is saying to us, “Now that you have questioned and come up with even more questions…..will you just trust me anyway?” When we do, grace comes down to cover us and I believe, answers come as God allows.
There sure is a peace that passes all understanding when this happens. I'm experiencing that as of late last night…..
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,12:52) Tim, maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong? I see a lot of “just” acts in the OT and in the NT. There seems to be strict code of faith that is required OR you are punished in some way. Jesus also told us that this is true. I think he knew it for himself as well and that is why he countered Satan with scripture!
We are children and God is our Father. I know that when my children do not obey me they are disciplined. I do this for their own good. I do this so that they understand rules are set in place for a reason; sometimes that reason is to protect them from themselves. I do allow my children to question certain rules and consequences, however, that doesn't mean that certain rules and consequences change. Why? Because I said so!
It might be the same with God and Jesus?
As adult children we may not always like the way things are or how our parents run things, but that doesn't mean anything will change. After all, they are still the parents and what they say goes! Right? What are the options? Run away……. The Prodical Son tried that, I confess I've tried it too, but there is safety at home even when we don't agree with the rules.
What you see, IMHO, in the bible is man progressing and therefore his view of God changing too. That is why someone who picked up sticks on the Sabbath was killed while Jesus was much more merciful.Humanity progresses everyday. Judaism today is not the Judaism of the 1st century. Christianity is certainly not the Christianity of the few years after Jesus' death. It only took a few hundred years for man to take the teachings of a man who told you to turn the other cheek and love your enemy and turn them into a reason to kill one another.
I think Christianity is finally coming into its own. Some would disagree and say we are certainly in the end-times but I see the Christianity today in a place where Judaism was hundreds o years ago: evolving and progressing. I see part of Islam still stuck in the early years of Judaism where you conquered and killed.
Jews were the first. They killed and conqered in God's name and then eventually grew out of it. Christianity killed and conquered in God's name for many years, and now have grown out of it. Islam seems to be going through their own cycle.
God is perfect, man is not.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 22 2008,13:07) Hi KJ,
Why quote Paul if to you his words are under suspicion?
You have to rest faith somewhere outside yourself.
To trust the Word is to trust the God who wrote it through men
Nick,You tried this same ploy with Tow. It will not work with me either so don't bother.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,13:08) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,06:00) So we have to take it all with a grain of salt.
You mean to say, we shouldn't take it very seriously?Yes, you should take it seriously, but IMO, you should not rely on it being 100% correct. It was written by men, inspired by God. I have made many mistakes while thinking I was inspired by God. As you grow in faith you realize that and accept that while God is perfect, no man is.
Quote I've been thinking abou this Kejonn – maybe God has intended that his Word be sort of cryptic? Maybe it is only through mystery that we come close to knowing him? Those of us who desire more are given more through his Spirit – only he knows who we are. As I said on my site, I believe most religious texts to be written by men who are simply revealing what they feel God is telling them. People end up settling with whichever text suits what they can accept.
You should take the time to watch the “Power of Myth” videos I have on the site. Go to the main site and click on the “videos” link in the header links. It could be very eye-opening for you.
When I was 20, someone told me of Jesus. Through reading about him, I was introduced to God. So for me, Jesus is the way. But what if I was in Iraq and someone handed me a copy of Koran? You get the picture.
Quote I thinking questioning is good. No one will be able to convince me that it's not. But I think there comes a time when God is saying to us, “Now that you have questioned and come up with even more questions…..will you just trust me anyway?” When we do, grace comes down to cover us and I believe, answers come as God allows.
I think you need to take what answers you have and work on them. God reveals knowledge in bits and pieces and will not give you more than you can handle at once. If you feel you have more than you can handle, it is likely you that has been going beyond your own limiations at the time.
Quote There sure is a peace that passes all understanding when this happens. I'm experiencing that as of late last night…..
It can be peaceful when you feel confident of something. While many here that are dogmatic will disagree, I feel much more at peace knowing that I don't have to have answers for the various contradictions and conflicts in the Holy Bible. I can simply look to Gods people and see that we too are full of contradictions and conflicts.People want to say the bible is about God. I disagree. I see the bible as about a people who are trying to know God and then passing on what they have learned.
I know many do not like the gnostics.
But it is the gnostics who first said what you are saying Kejonn.
They realized that to KNOW the truth nobody could tell you exactly.
They believe Jesus taught THE WAY.
God is love and light.
God will reveal himself to you.
Inside of you is the very spirit HE gave you.
Listen to it.
We may not be able to download all kinds of data, facts and figures, but we can learn HIS WILL.
The kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.
Since learning this and trying very hard to hear that voice inside me I have become what I believe is a better person.
I for so long wished I could learn everything I needed through a book. I love scriptures even now.
But, I have also learned that absolute intellectual and spiritual honesty is so important. It will profit me nothing to go with the flow and ignore what my reason and my spirit tell me.
Gnosis is knowledge. But, not just intellectual knowledge about facts and figures.
It is EXPERIENTIAL knowledge. Knowing God.
GOD IS LOVE AND LIGHT AND IN HIM IS NO SHADOW OF TURNING.
Truly learning this and reflecting on this has brought more peace than i have ever had in my life.
Sure I may sound like a hippie or a wussy, but if you really believe that then maybe you should think long and hard about what love really is.
My two cents.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,06:25) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,13:08) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,06:00) So we have to take it all with a grain of salt.
You mean to say, we shouldn't take it very seriously?Yes, you should take it seriously, but IMO, you should not rely on it being 100% correct. It was written by men, inspired by God. I have made many mistakes while thinking I was inspired by God. As you grow in faith you realize that and accept that while God is perfect, no man is.
Quote I've been thinking abou this Kejonn – maybe God has intended that his Word be sort of cryptic? Maybe it is only through mystery that we come close to knowing him? Those of us who desire more are given more through his Spirit – only he knows who we are. As I said on my site, I believe most religious texts to be written by men who are simply revealing what they feel God is telling them. People end up settling with whichever text suits what they can accept.
You should take the time to watch the “Power of Myth” videos I have on the site. Go to the main site and click on the “videos” link in the header links. It could be very eye-opening for you.
When I was 20, someone told me of Jesus. Through reading about him, I was introduced to God. So for me, Jesus is the way. But what if I was in Iraq and someone handed me a copy of Koran? You get the picture.
Quote I thinking questioning is good. No one will be able to convince me that it's not. But I think there comes a time when God is saying to us, “Now that you have questioned and come up with even more questions…..will you just trust me anyway?” When we do, grace comes down to cover us and I believe, answers come as God allows.
I think you need to take what answers you have and work on them. God reveals knowledge in bits and pieces and will not give you more than you can handle at once. If you feel you have more than you can handle, it is likely you that has been going beyond your own limiations at the time.
Quote There sure is a peace that passes all understanding when this happens. I'm experiencing that as of late last night…..
It can be peaceful when you feel confident of something. While many here that are dogmatic will disagree, I feel much more at peace knowing that I don't have to have answers for the various contradictions and conflicts in the Holy Bible. I can simply look to Gods people and see that we too are full of contradictions and conflicts.People want to say the bible is about God. I disagree. I see the bible as about a people who are trying to know God and then passing on what they have learned.
Hi KJ,
No one here confused your level of inspiration with that of Paul and the other apostles. We should seek the wisdom they had and not judge them according to our ignorance.As I said Nick, you can choose to read what I write and ponder on it or ignore it. Or as you apt to do, try to discredit it. It matters little to me. I am simply a man speaking what is on his heart and mind. If I am wrong God will judge me and make me aware of my errors in His own time. At this time, I can't say that your disagreement with me is God pointing out my error.
Hi SOL,
You say
“Inside of you is the very spirit HE gave you.”
Indeed.
And man has strived with God ever since.
Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.Man needs to be reborn of the Spirit of God.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 23 2008,05:52) Tim, maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong? I see a lot of “just” acts in the OT and in the NT. There seems to be strict code of faith that is required OR you are punished in some way. Jesus also told us that this is true. I think he knew it for himself as well and that is why he countered Satan with scripture!
We are children and God is our Father. I know that when my children do not obey me they are disciplined. I do this for their own good. I do this so that they understand rules are set in place for a reason; sometimes that reason is to protect them from themselves. I do allow my children to question certain rules and consequences, however, that doesn't mean that certain rules and consequences change. Why? Because I said so!
It might be the same with God and Jesus?
As adult children we may not always like the way things are or how our parents run things, but that doesn't mean anything will change. After all, they are still the parents and what they say goes! Right? What are the options? Run away……. The Prodical Son tried that, I confess I've tried it too, but there is safety at home even when we don't agree with the rules.
I do not disagree with anything that you said Mandy.
But the simple fact is, you can obey someone out of fear.
You can respect someone out of fear perhaps.
But you can not love someone out of fear.
They can not tell you to love me or else.That is how I have heard the “good news” preached.
I say again, that is not good news.Don't get me wrong. My problem is not with the good news that Jesus has come to be the saviour of each of us. My problem is with the way that most Christians present that news.
I am so happy that you have come to some feeling of peace Mandy.
I have prayed for that.Tim
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2008,09:43) Hi Tim,
The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom.
Hi Nick,
I agree.
Is it the beginning of love?Tim
Hi Tim,
God first loved us.
\In Christ He gives us the grace of love
1 John 4:9
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:11
Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,06:25) It can be peaceful when you feel confident of something.
No, see that's just it, you have peace that passes your understanding.It is possible to have this peace even when confidence is lacking. It is a gift from God. He knows we struggle.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 23 2008,08:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 23 2008,05:52) Tim, maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong? I see a lot of “just” acts in the OT and in the NT. There seems to be strict code of faith that is required OR you are punished in some way. Jesus also told us that this is true. I think he knew it for himself as well and that is why he countered Satan with scripture!
We are children and God is our Father. I know that when my children do not obey me they are disciplined. I do this for their own good. I do this so that they understand rules are set in place for a reason; sometimes that reason is to protect them from themselves. I do allow my children to question certain rules and consequences, however, that doesn't mean that certain rules and consequences change. Why? Because I said so!
It might be the same with God and Jesus?
As adult children we may not always like the way things are or how our parents run things, but that doesn't mean anything will change. After all, they are still the parents and what they say goes! Right? What are the options? Run away……. The Prodical Son tried that, I confess I've tried it too, but there is safety at home even when we don't agree with the rules.
I do not disagree with anything that you said Mandy.
But the simple fact is, you can obey someone out of fear.
You can respect someone out of fear perhaps.
But you can not love someone out of fear.
They can not tell you to love me or else.That is how I have heard the “good news” preached.
I say again, that is not good news.Don't get me wrong. My problem is not with the good news that Jesus has come to be the saviour of each of us. My problem is with the way that most Christians present that news.
I am so happy that you have come to some feeling of peace Mandy.
I have prayed for that.Tim
Oh I understand now, your beef is with the preacher's and televangelists who preach this good news but then mixed it with a little hell fire…….yes, I see your point. I think “most Christians” are motivated out of fear. Fear is a good motivator, let's face it.In the movie, Moses, there was a great quote that goes like this:
Moses told the children, “I want you to love obeying the law because you are free not to.”
So instead of being motivated by fear, I believe God wants us to be motivated by our love for him. A parent can tell when a child is obeying out of fear and when a child is obeying out of love.
Fear is the bastard-child of punishment. We are to fear God, but if we know him then death has no sting (death is the ultimate punishment). Neither will we die or be punished for our sins……because of Jesus.
Anyway, I hear ya and as always you have some really good points Tim. Oh, and thanks for the prayers. I don't put that as a last though here…..I really do cherish them and I have felt them.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,18:56) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,06:25) It can be peaceful when you feel confident of something.
No, see that's just it, you have peace that passes your understanding.It is possible to have this peace even when confidence is lacking. It is a gift from God. He knows we struggle.
Watch out, you're humanity is revealing itself . Don't forget that we are to be solid in our faith. Faith: “Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.”Confidence and faith go hand-in-hand.
But reality shows that we often have a lack of faith, aka confidence, and God still gives abundantly.
Does that match biblical teaching?
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