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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,20:39) Hi Not3,
What does Romans 3 say about those of a good conscience aligned with the Law?
It would both defend and accuse them on the day of Judgement.Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 21 2008,03:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,20:39) Hi Not3,
What does Romans 3 say about those of a good conscience aligned with the Law?
It would both defend and accuse them on the day of Judgement.
Then again I must pose this question: how is it “good news” to come to someone who is leading a moral life and tell them of Jesus, and tell them that if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell? The moral person who is ignorant of Jesus seems better off in that case because you are forcing that person to make a decision that may or may not improve the overall morality of that person. Its like God saying “Well, I was going judge you on your works, but now I see you were told about Jesus and did not accept him. Case closed, go to hell.”Hi KJ,
God makes the rules.
We do not judge Him or His plan.
We do know the benefits or obedience to that plan are great.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 22 2008,00:13) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 21 2008,03:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,20:39) Hi Not3,
What does Romans 3 say about those of a good conscience aligned with the Law?
It would both defend and accuse them on the day of Judgement.
Then again I must pose this question: how is it “good news” to come to someone who is leading a moral life and tell them of Jesus, and tell them that if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell? The moral person who is ignorant of Jesus seems better off in that case because you are forcing that person to make a decision that may or may not improve the overall morality of that person. Its like God saying “Well, I was going judge you on your works, but now I see you were told about Jesus and did not accept him. Case closed, go to hell.”
because some do not follow the law written on the tablet of their heart.they love the darkness and the passing pleasure these temporal things bring. stealing for example gives a brief reward.
they need to hear that there is something better and that the truth of that has always been within them.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,12:32) Hi KJ,
God makes the rules.
We do not judge Him or His plan.
We do know the benefits or obedience to that plan are great.
But your response is predicated on the belief that the Holy Bible is the only 100% pure unadulterated words of God. I know you believe they are, but even the bible itself nevers makes such a bold claim. The closest you have is- 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Notice even Paul does not say “All scripture is inspired by God an without error”. He says it is profitable, but he never goes so far as to make the claim that so many Christians are willing to make of it.
Plus, since Paul wrote this many years before the Gospels ever came out (the gospels weren't even mentioned by the early fathers!), he was speaking at the time of OT and not NT scripture. The canon of the NT was decided many years after any of what we have was written, and was basically chosen to reflect the theology that the church wanted to put forth.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 22 2008,05:46) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 22 2008,00:13) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 21 2008,03:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,20:39) Hi Not3,
What does Romans 3 say about those of a good conscience aligned with the Law?
It would both defend and accuse them on the day of Judgement.
Then again I must pose this question: how is it “good news” to come to someone who is leading a moral life and tell them of Jesus, and tell them that if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell? The moral person who is ignorant of Jesus seems better off in that case because you are forcing that person to make a decision that may or may not improve the overall morality of that person. Its like God saying “Well, I was going judge you on your works, but now I see you were told about Jesus and did not accept him. Case closed, go to hell.”
because some do not follow the law written on the tablet of their heart.they love the darkness and the passing pleasure these temporal things bring. stealing for example gives a brief reward.
they need to hear that there is something better and that the truth of that has always been within them.
Hi SOL,
The faithful older son will inherit as in the prodigal son parable.
And the gentiles who have the Law written on their heart and obey it will too.
But we in Christ do not depend on the Law but on the righteousness gained by the works of Christ.
It is our breastplate.Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 22 2008,05:46) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 22 2008,00:13) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 21 2008,03:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,20:39) Hi Not3,
What does Romans 3 say about those of a good conscience aligned with the Law?
It would both defend and accuse them on the day of Judgement.
Then again I must pose this question: how is it “good news” to come to someone who is leading a moral life and tell them of Jesus, and tell them that if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell? The moral person who is ignorant of Jesus seems better off in that case because you are forcing that person to make a decision that may or may not improve the overall morality of that person. Its like God saying “Well, I was going judge you on your works, but now I see you were told about Jesus and did not accept him. Case closed, go to hell.”
because some do not follow the law written on the tablet of their heart.they love the darkness and the passing pleasure these temporal things bring. stealing for example gives a brief reward.
they need to hear that there is something better and that the truth of that has always been within them.
Hi SOL,
Gnosticism also is darkness.Quote The verses you have quoted I have studied. What I wonder is the African tribe may view the heavens and praise the Creator alright, but what of Jesus as their Messiah? The scriptures do not give us any indication that the tribe would view the heavens and be able to name Jesus as their Way? What do you think about this? Quote What about the african tribe that worships a stone and believes they are giving praise to God? They've never heard about Jesus…… Hopefully, one day they will.
MATTHEW 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””In times past, many didn't get a chance to hear about Jesus:
ACTS 17:29-31
““Seeing, therefore, that we are the progeny of God, we ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man. True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent. Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.””But that is changing
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Well, I'm sure that when they do hear about Jesus they will probably hear it from a JW. Since they are one of the only groups I know that takes evangelism to new heights. They sure won't hear it from the Trinity Network…….
I don't believe that the gospel as preached by most evangelists is particularly good news.
To be informed that before I told you about Jesus you were safe from hell but now that I have told you,
you will spend eternity burning in hell if you do not believe me.
That is not good news.
“Woe to them that call evil good.”Tim
Tim,
That's why the bible we have today stinks of church revision. It was the Catholic church who first said that salvation was only through them so it is a natural extension to insert that same ideology into the teachings of Paul and Jesus in John (note that this theme is not found in the synoptics unless you count the later added ending of Mark).
The church knew that many in that day were a suspicious lot, and they knew the word “hades” from their pagan background. Threaten them with hell, keep them from having their own copy of the bible, and you can see how they had the masses enthralled.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,13:44) Hi KJ,
Do you have doubts now about the gospels and NT writings too?
NT, OT, all religious writings. I don't doubt the God who inspired them, nor do I believe that the writers purposely said things they did not believe were true. The writers were just products of their time and surroundings.Christianity has changed much since its original teachings through Jesus (it was not called Christianity then). How do you explain that knowing it is supposed to be the same God from Genesis to Revelation? Because Christianity evolves just like any religion.
Look at Judaism. It too has evolved to the point where many Jews no longer want nor believe there will ever be animal sacrifice again.
Nick, if the same God inspired the OT and NT (I believe He did), and continues to inspire people, when did Jesus become God?
Hi KJ,
When the gnostic influence got busy.However I protest at your attack on the inspiration of Scripture.
I believe God is trustworthy and capable and protects what He has given us as truth through His servants.
To not trust God in this matter is rather to trust our own judgement.
Ps 12
6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever
Ps 19
7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Ps 119
72The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.
Jesus relied on the OT and quoted it to prove his mission.So If you can accept that the oT is truth then what of the NT.
Lk 24
27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.If you choose to deny the truth of scripture then you are on your own in your search for understanding and we should not follow you. We should follow Jesus who believed.
Pr 3
Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:4So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 22 2008,23:00) I don't believe that the gospel as preached by most evangelists is particularly good news.
To be informed that before I told you about Jesus you were safe from hell but now that I have told you,
you will spend eternity burning in hell if you do not believe me.
That is not good news.
“Woe to them that call evil good.”Tim
However, there are also blessings for knowing Christ. Maybe we are accountable to what we know – what we have been given. And to whom much is given, much is expected.I know that when I trust Jesus completely, there are huge blessings in my life. Quite possibly those who have never known Jesus may be off-the-hook for not knowing him and following the commands…..but they also didn't get to enjoy his companionship and guidance. Which would you really prefer?
As far as the inspiration of scripture, I have to say I was shocked to my very core when I learned that 1 John 5:7 had been tampered with. I think I've shared this story before, but it was close to midnight on night when I learned this information online. I woke my husband up and asked him where his bible was (he had a different version than mine), because I wanted to verify what I had just learned. Sure enough! They were right! I couldn't believe it! My faith was shaken at that moment. My trust in the bible was shaken. I began to search out translations and how the bible came to be. It was a long journey and trek for truth. It took months of research. Indeed I found the bible to be faulty in many areas.
But what did this prove? That men handled it? Of course they handled it. Are men perfect? Only one man was that I am aware of and he didn't write anything. So we are left with something that God inspired but that man produced. Even Moses who was inspired by God on a moment-by-moment basis – hit the rock in anger to produce water. He used his own strength and will. So I'm sure it was with the inspired writers of the bible. So what?
I believe this is why God has given us his precious Spirit. He hasn't given us a “third person” whom we need to get to know and worship, he has given us himself. After all, it is HIM that we are to know for eternal life. And if there are flaws then his Spirit will guide us from there. Why are we all in different directions if the Spirit is guiding us all? I don't have the answer for that yet. But I do know that even in the desert when God was guiding the children of Israel by fire and a cloud…..they still had different ideas about who God was and his will for their lives. There are no pat answers. But I rest in knowing this – God knows our hearts! God knows our hearts! If we are faithful in our love for him, we can't go wrong. Even if we turn out to be Trinitarians, Unitarians or Librarians.
Hi not3,
I remeber being floored by the book by Riplinger NEW AGE VERSIONS where it suggested that all bibles except the KJV are evil by dishonestly comparing verse with verse without explaining the different manuscripts the versions were based on. KJV uses the most common manuscripts but others use older ones.
You are right that the Spirit is essential to discern the truth despite these difficulties in the NT.Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 23 2008,04:46) Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 22 2008,23:00) I don't believe that the gospel as preached by most evangelists is particularly good news.
To be informed that before I told you about Jesus you were safe from hell but now that I have told you,
you will spend eternity burning in hell if you do not believe me.
That is not good news.
“Woe to them that call evil good.”Tim
However, there are also blessings for knowing Christ. Maybe we are accountable to what we know – what we have been given. And to whom much is given, much is expected.I know that when I trust Jesus completely, there are huge blessings in my life. Quite possibly those who have never known Jesus may be off-the-hook for not knowing him and following the commands…..but they also didn't get to enjoy his companionship and guidance. Which would you really prefer?
HI Not3,unquestionably there are enormous blessings to knowing
Christ. What I said was that ” I don't believe that the gospel as preached by most evangelists is particularly good news.”That gospel goes something like this. I am your saviour, believe in me and I will love you as long as you love me back.
If you don't love me back then I will curse you with eternal damnation and excruciating pain for ever and ever. To whom is that good news?I am sorry. That is simply not the Christ that I know. That is a Christ that was invented by man.
Tim
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