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Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2008,21:18) Quote Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. Well, Christians certainly believe that. Here Jesus says that apart from him, we can do nothing. Interesting in that he also supposedly said:
Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
You have very appropriately labelled this thread: “CONFUSED.” You were just a little confused as to who it was about.
JOHN 15:1-5
““I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit. YOU are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to YOU. Remain in union with me, and I in union with YOU. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, in the same way neither can YOU, unless YOU remain in union with me. I am the vine, YOU are the branches. He that remains in union with me, and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; because apart from me YOU can do [or, “produce”] nothing at all.”Jesus was saying that as the true vine, (and his Father the cultivator) and that from apart from him, you can't produce any real fruit.
JOHN 5:19
“Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.”The first verse is talking about people not really being able to do anything fruitfull or produce anything worthwhile without taking Christ into consideration.
The second verse is talking about the Son always wanting to please the father and obeying him, not doing anything of “his” will, but rather his Father's will.These thoughts aren't really connected in any way. You're really stretching here.
So for 4000 years before Jesus, people were totally fruitless?You have a weak god my friend.
To Pharaoh, who considered himself a god and a son of the Egyptian god Ra, Jehovah spoke of Israel as “my son, my firstborn,” and called on the Egyptian ruler to “send my son away that he may serve me.” (Ex 4:22, 23) Thus the entire nation of Israel was viewed by God as his “son” because of being his chosen people, a “special property, out of all the peoples.” (De 14:1, 2) Not only because Jehovah is the Source of all life but more specifically because God had, in harmony with the Abrahamic covenant, produced this people, he is called their “Creator,” their “Former,” and their “Father,” the one by whose name they were called. (Compare Ps 95:6, 7; 100:3; Isa 43:1-7, 15; 45:11, 12, 18, 19; 63:16.) He had ‘helped them even from the belly,’ evidently referring to the very beginning of their development as a people, and he ‘formed’ them by his dealings with them and by the Law covenant, giving shape to the national characteristics and structure. (Isa 44:1, 2, 21; compare God’s expressions to Jerusalem at Eze 16:1-14; also Paul’s expressions at Ga 4:19 and 1Th 2:11, 12.) Jehovah protected, carried, corrected, and provided for them as a father would for his son. (De 1:30, 31; 8:5-9; compare Isa 49:14, 15.) As “a son,” the nation should have served to the praise of its Father. (Isa 43:21; Mal 1:6)
Otherwise Israel would belie its sonship (De 32:4-6, 18-20; Isa 1:2, 3; 30:1, 2, 9) , even as some of the Israelites acted in disreputable ways and were called “sons of belial” (literal Hebrew expression rendered “good-for-nothing men” at De 13:13 and other texts; compare 2Co 6:15). They became “renegade sons.”—Jer 3:14, 22; compare 4:22.This is in responce to Tow's statement:
Quote Yes. Mary was to be betrothed to Joseph. If she had a baby by anyone else, it was adultery. However, the Hebrew scriptures refute your GT:
Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 03 2008,21:19) Hi tow,
You continue to try our God according to your puny human moral view.
God is sovereign and all belongs to Him.
Yes all belongs to Him. Submit to Him and not the idolatrous pagan religion of Christianity. There's still time.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 04 2008,14:22) Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2008,21:18) Quote Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. Well, Christians certainly believe that. Here Jesus says that apart from him, we can do nothing. Interesting in that he also supposedly said:
Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
You have very appropriately labelled this thread: “CONFUSED.” You were just a little confused as to who it was about.
JOHN 15:1-5
““I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit. YOU are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to YOU. Remain in union with me, and I in union with YOU. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, in the same way neither can YOU, unless YOU remain in union with me. I am the vine, YOU are the branches. He that remains in union with me, and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; because apart from me YOU can do [or, “produce”] nothing at all.”Jesus was saying that as the true vine, (and his Father the cultivator) and that from apart from him, you can't produce any real fruit.
JOHN 5:19
“Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.”The first verse is talking about people not really being able to do anything fruitfull or produce anything worthwhile without taking Christ into consideration.
The second verse is talking about the Son always wanting to please the father and obeying him, not doing anything of “his” will, but rather his Father's will.These thoughts aren't really connected in any way. You're really stretching here.
So for 4000 years before Jesus, people were totally fruitless?You have a weak god my friend.
Centuries earlier, the prophet Jeremiah recorded these words of Jehovah to his renegade people:“I had planted you as a choice red vine . . . So how have you been changed toward me into the degenerate shoots of a foreign vine?” (Jeremiah 2:21)
And the prophet Hosea wrote:
“Israel is a degenerating vine. Fruit he keeps putting forth for himself. . . . Their heart has become hypocritical.”—Hosea 10:1, 2.
Rather than producing the fruitage of true worship, Israel fell into apostasy and produced fruit for itself.
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2008,21:22) To Pharaoh, who considered himself a god and a son of the Egyptian god Ra, Jehovah spoke of Israel as “my son, my firstborn,” and called on the Egyptian ruler to “send my son away that he may serve me.” (Ex 4:22, 23) Thus the entire nation of Israel was viewed by God as his “son” because of being his chosen people, a “special property, out of all the peoples.” (De 14:1, 2) Not only because Jehovah is the Source of all life but more specifically because God had, in harmony with the Abrahamic covenant, produced this people, he is called their “Creator,” their “Former,” and their “Father,” the one by whose name they were called. (Compare Ps 95:6, 7; 100:3; Isa 43:1-7, 15; 45:11, 12, 18, 19; 63:16.) He had ‘helped them even from the belly,’ evidently referring to the very beginning of their development as a people, and he ‘formed’ them by his dealings with them and by the Law covenant, giving shape to the national characteristics and structure. (Isa 44:1, 2, 21; compare God’s expressions to Jerusalem at Eze 16:1-14; also Paul’s expressions at Ga 4:19 and 1Th 2:11, 12.) Jehovah protected, carried, corrected, and provided for them as a father would for his son. (De 1:30, 31; 8:5-9; compare Isa 49:14, 15.) As “a son,” the nation should have served to the praise of its Father. (Isa 43:21; Mal 1:6)
Otherwise Israel would belie its sonship (De 32:4-6, 18-20; Isa 1:2, 3; 30:1, 2, 9) , even as some of the Israelites acted in disreputable ways and were called “sons of belial” (literal Hebrew expression rendered “good-for-nothing men” at De 13:13 and other texts; compare 2Co 6:15). They became “renegade sons.”—Jer 3:14, 22; compare 4:22.This is in responce to Tow's statement:
Quote Yes. Mary was to be betrothed to Joseph. If she had a baby by anyone else, it was adultery. However, the Hebrew scriptures refute your GT:
Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son
David, are you weakening? Your earlier responses to me held more power. These last few are so feeble. They show nothing, prove nothing. Are you finally seeing the GT for the fallacy it is?Quote David, are you weakening? Your earlier responses to me held more power. These last few are so feeble. They show nothing, prove nothing. Are you finally seeing the GT for the fallacy it is? Once again, i believe you are deeply “confused.” I may be spending less time on these posts, mostly because we're having discussions in 5 different threads at the same time.
I'm thinking that might be your goal. Say so much, that people don't really or can't really respond. Then, you'll be able to tell yourself you're right. Quite a sad approach.
I find that people that actually want to discuss….discuss.And I find that people that don't….plaster as many posts as they can. If you can't get them with reason and sanity, get them with numbers.
They'll most likely give up or go away. Not the best approach for a sincere seeker of truth.
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2008,21:37) Quote David, are you weakening? Your earlier responses to me held more power. These last few are so feeble. They show nothing, prove nothing. Are you finally seeing the GT for the fallacy it is? Once again, i believe you are deeply “confused.” I may be spending less time on these posts, mostly because we're having discussions in 5 different threads at the same time.
I'm thinking that might be your goal. Say so much, that people don't really or can't really respond. Then, you'll be able to tell yourself you're right. Quite a sad approach.Blame your best friend Nick. He keeps posting baseless philosophical mumbo jumbo for a response.
Quote I find that people that actually want to discuss….discuss. Then discuss. Right now you are not discussing.
Quote And I find that people that don't….plaster as many posts as they can. If you can't get them with reason and sanity, get them with numbers. Tell that to Nick Hassan, Mr 20K posts.
Quote They'll most likely give up or go away. Not the best approach for a sincere seeker of truth.
I don't seek truth because it has already been revealed to me. Well, not all, but that Jesus is NOT the Jewish King Messiah.Christians should end world hunger! After all, Jesus said that those who believe in him would do greater works then him. Since Jesus fed 5000 with a few loaves and fish, 2.1 billion Christians should be able to end world hunger with the food we do have.
Christians should cure cancer, AIDS, diabetes, and all other diseases. After all, Jesus healed people all the time, and Christians are supposed to be able to greater works than Jesus!
Christians don't need boats, they should be able to walk on water.
Christians should hang out at hospitals! No need for doctors any more because Christians can heal the sick and should someone die, they can raise them from the dead!
Christians should prevent natural disasters! Jesus spoke and the wind and sea obeyed, so Christians should be able to calm storms, halt earthquakes, stop volcanoes, etc.
Why are Christians so darn selfish? All of this great power and they never use it.
Hi tow,
How many lepers lived in the time of Elisha?
How many were healed?
Naaman the syrian.If you had faith the size of a mustard see yoiu could say to this mountain “move” and it would.
Folks prefer knowledge and understanding.
God requires faith.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2008,14:18) Hi tow,
How many lepers lived in the time of Elisha?
How many were healed?
Naaman the syrian.If you had faith the size of a mustard see yoiu could say to this mountain “move” and it would.
Folks prefer knowledge and understanding.
God requires faith.
Ok then, why are so many Christians without faith?Since there is no single record of a Christian (1) raising the dead (2) calming a storm (3) walking on water (4) feeding multitudes with very little food, etc. one can logically assume faith went out the door around 100 CE (last book of the GT).
Hi Tow,
I am pleased you acknowledge that these things were done by Jesus Christ.
He too wondered if there would be faith on earth when he returned.Tow the Person that is confused is you. The first Christians died for the words of the Bible first by the Romans by the millions and later they were tortured and died by the millions by the hands of the Catholic Church. Guess why, because they owned a Bible and confessed that they believed in Jesus.
The great things that we are doing today is not material or physical it is spiritual. Jesus also said if you can't pick up your cross you are not worthy of me. The fact is that Jesus had God's Holy Spirit full strength and could walk on water. The only time that Peter walked on water was when Jesus was around. We could move mountains if we had enough faith, but most of us do not have enough to do that or any other miracle. Miracles however still happen. One happened to our Granddaughter when She was 2 years old. t8 also talked about miracles, they happened in His life.
As far as all other statements you made they will happen soon, just watch out when Jesus returns.Not believing in the Bible that we have today is your problem. All are liars according to your word.
That is sad and so wrong.
Calling names stinks and is ignorance speaking. Nick is a fine Brethren and I don't appreciate those remarks you make.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2008,14:34) Hi Tow,
I am pleased you acknowledge that these things were done by Jesus Christ.
He too wondered if there would be faith on earth when he returned.
No, rather I am proving their fallacy by showing that since (1) Christians cannot do them and Jesus said they would that (2) Jesus did not do them either.Quite simple really.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Jan. 04 2008,14:40) Tow the Person that is confused is you. The first Christians died for the words of the Bible first by the Romans by the millions and later they were tortured and died by the millions by the hands of the Catholic Church. Guess why, because they owned a Bible and confessed that they believed in Jesus. If dying for what you believe in is proof that a faith is true, then you must concede that Judaism is the most true faith on earth. More Jews have died than any other faith/race for their beliefs. In fact, history records that Christians, including Catholics AND Protestants, have been killing Jews since the inception of Christianity. In fact, at one time Catholics killed Jews but laer on Catholics were protecting Jews from Protestants!
Quote The great things that we are doing today is not material or physical it is spiritual. Ah, so the things that Jesus did mean nothing then. He said
=====================================
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Joh 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
=====================================Quote Jesus also said if you can't pick up your cross you are not worthy of me. How many Christians do this?
Quote The fact is that Jesus had God's Holy Spirit full strength and could walk on water. The only time that Peter walked on water was when Jesus was around. We could move mountains if we had enough faith, but most of us do not have enough to do that or any other miracle. The above passage said nothing of faith. It just says you have to believe in Jesus and ask. What, you don't even have faith the size of a mustard seed?
Quote Miracles however still happen. One happened to our Granddaughter when She was 2 years old. t8 also talked about miracles, they happened in His life.
As far as all other statements you made they will happen soon, just watch out when Jesus returns.Always the fallback strategy. When people cannot explain the many deficiencies, they say to wait on Jesus to return. Its like telling the winning team “Wait till next year!”.
Quote Not believing in the Bible that we have today is your problem. All are liars according to your word. No, you've been readining Nick's twist. I do not believe G-d inspired them to do so, not that they lied. They wrote what they were inspired to write but their inspiration was off.
Quote That is sad and so wrong.
Calling names stinks and is ignorance speaking. Nick is a fine Brethren and I don't appreciate those remarks you make.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Show me where I called Nick any names.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 05 2008,07:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2008,14:34) Hi Tow,
I am pleased you acknowledge that these things were done by Jesus Christ.
He too wondered if there would be faith on earth when he returned.
No, rather I am proving their fallacy by showing that since (1) Christians cannot do them and Jesus said they would that (2) Jesus did not do them either.Quite simple really.
Hi tow,
The choice to believe will always be yours alone.
But your doubts are unattractive to us.
They lead nowhere useful.Hi tow,
Like Paul we can say “I can do all things through Him Who strengthens me.”
But we do not serve our personal wills.
The powers are God'sSo it was you god's will to heal people through Jesus and his disciples, but it stopped being His will after the GT was written? And therefore Jesus lied when he said that people who believed in him would do the same works but also works that were greater? Sneaky god you have there Nick. Sneaky and selfish.
Hi tow,
God gives the opportunities and the grace.
Peter and Paul indeed even raised the dead.
You should not abuse the God of Israel.
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