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Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,13:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 22 2008,18:56) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,06:25) It can be peaceful when you feel confident of something.
No, see that's just it, you have peace that passes your understanding.It is possible to have this peace even when confidence is lacking. It is a gift from God. He knows we struggle.
Watch out, you're humanity is revealing itself
. Don't forget that we are to be solid in our faith. Faith: “Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.”Confidence and faith go hand-in-hand.
But reality shows that we often have a lack of faith, aka confidence, and God still gives abundantly.
Does that match biblical teaching?
I'm certainly not afraid to be human. I embrace my humanity and celebrate it. It means that I can't be perfect, and being free from that stress is amazing. Paul encourages us to be perfect and holy just as our Lord was – but even Paul knew that just when we want to do good, evil is right there to temp us.Maybe peace is different from faith? It is possible to have peace and not have confidence. But is it possible to have faith and no confidence in what you are believing for? Crikey! We do like to get technical don't we? It think that is why the majority of us are here – we love the technical stuff. Maybe we're all just a bunch of religion geeks?
Some of us are at least becoming students of religion. I heard in the past that religion was “man's way of serving God”. Judging by what I have uncovered, what else is there?
In the past, have you ever been in a church service were you felt the spirit was moving? Now think about going to a movie where the crowd reaction greatly enhanced the entertainment value. Or think of a sporting event where there was a similar positive (or negative) atmosphere. Surely the latter two were not the spirit of God moving, right? But sometimes you wonder at the similarities in your emotional reaction.
Ever get goosebumps listening to a secular song? Watching a secular movie? So you can have “experiences” by yourself as well.
What I'm getting at is there has to be a reason there are so many different beliefs within Christianity, and many more outside of it as well. Everyone thinks their interpretation is the correct one, yet we all say we are lead by the same unifying spirit.
What's going on?
Quote What I'm getting at is there has to be a reason there are so many different beliefs within Christianity, and many more outside of it as well. Everyone thinks their interpretation is the correct one, yet we all say we are lead by the same unifying spirit. What's going on?
MATTHEW 13:24-30 (c. 41 C.E.)
“The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’””
MATTHEW 13:36-39
“Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.”
(See Mat 8:20; 9:6; 10:23 where Jesus identifies himself as the “son of man.”)MATTHEW 7:15-16 (c. 41 C.E.)
““Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?”
(These words were put down by Matthew around 41 C.E, but spoken by Jesus several years earlier.MATTHEW 24:11 (c. 41 C.E.)
“And many false prophets will arise and mislead many;”
(After saying that no stone would be left of the temple in Jerusalem, Jesus’ disciples asked him: “When will these things be.” The question also involved them asking for a sign of his presence and the conclusion of the system of things. Jesus gave them a multi-fulfillment sign that included what would occur before the conclusion of Jerusalem’s end. We see that many false prophets would arise and “mislead many.”)ACTS 15:24 (c. 50 C.E.)
“we have heard that some from among us have caused you trouble with speeches, trying to subvert your souls, although we [the governing body] did not give them any instructions,”
(Remarkably, as early as around 50 C.E., there were “some from among” the Christian congregation who were speaking falsely, and “trying to subvert [their] souls.”)GALATIANS 1:6-7 (c. 50-52 C.E.)
“I marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness over to another sort of good news. But it is not another; only there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ.”
(“Certain ones” were “wanting to pervert the good news” and Paul was amazed or marveled at how “quickly” this was happening, already back around 50-52 C.E.!)GALATIANS 2:3-4 (c. 50-52 C.E.)
“Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us—”
(Again, mention of “false brothers” that were brought into the congregation, “quietly.”)2 THESSALONIANS 2:3,7,9 (c.51 C.E.)
“Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. . . .True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. . . .But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents”
(This man of lawlessness was a mystery at the time, but it would only be a mystery until “he who is right now acting as a restraint [the apostles] gets to be out of the way.” When that happened, it would no longer be a mystery or obscure, because it would break forth in full bloom and spread like “gangrene” as another verse puts it. Verse 8 tells us that the lawless one will be done away with and brought to nothing by the manifestation of Jesus’ presence. So the man of lawlessness would exist right up until Christ’s presence. It was “already at work” or beginning to manifest itself at this time.)2 CORINTHIANS 11:3 (c. 55 C.E.)
“I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds [of those Christians in Corinth] might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ.”2 CORINTHIANS 11:26 (c. 55 C.E.)
“. . . .in dangers among false brothers. . . .”
(False brothers certainly already existed at this time and they were dangerous.)ROMANS 16:17-18 (c. 56 C.E.)
“Now I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (See 1 Cor 1:10)ACTS 20:27-30 (c. 56.C.E.)
“for I have not held back from telling you all the counsel of God. Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
(Notice that he was speaking to the “overseers” (Bishops), the ones who had been appointed “to shepharerd the congregation of God.” It was from among these ones themselves that men would rise and speak twisted things “to draw away the disciples after themselves.”) (See Acts 15:24; 2 Pet. 2:1)COLOSSIANS 2:8 (c. 60-61 C.E.)
“Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;”
(Although this scripture is not speaking of an apostasy or rebellion from within, it does speak of the subtle influence of philosophy and Greek philosophy was a key factor in the apostasy that followed the death of the apostles. The Greek immortal soul teaching implied a need for various destinations for the soul—heaven, hellfire, purgatory, paradise, Limbo. By manipulating such teachings, it became easy for a priestly class to keep their flocks submissive and in fear of the Hereafter and to extract gifts and donations from them.)1 TIMOTHY 6:20-21 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.” For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith.”1 TIMO
THY 4:1-3 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.”
(See 1 tim 3:2; 1 Cor 9:5; “Cephas” is an Aramaic name given to Peter; see John 1:42. See also Mark 1:29-31, where reference is made to the mother-in-law of Simon, or Peter.)1 TIMOTHY 1:3-7 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“Just as I encouraged you to stay in Eph́e·sus when I was about to go my way into Mac·e·dóni·a, so I do now, that you might command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, nor to pay attention to false stories. . .. Really the objective of this mandate is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy. By deviating from these things certain ones have been turned aside into idle talk, wanting to be teachers of law, but not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions.”
(So, around 61-64 C.E., “false stories” did exist and were being taught. Some in the Christian congregation were “teach[ing] different doctrine” as early as 61 C.E. More than that, ones were “making strong assertions” that were wrong and “wanting to be teachers.” As well, they had “deviated” from certain Christian principles.)TITUS 1:5,10,11,13-16 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders. . . .For there are many unruly men, profitless talkers, and deceivers of the mind, especially those men who adhere to the circumcision. It is necessary to shut the mouths of these, as these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they ought not for the sake of dishonest gain. . . . For this very cause keep on reproving them with severity, that they may be healthy in the faith, paying no attention to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn themselves away from the truth. . . . They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.” (See Mat. 15:19)2 PETER 3:13,15-17 (c. 64 C.E.)
“But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell. . . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard that you may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from your own steadfastness.” (See 2 Tim 4:3,4–“they will accumulate teachers for themsleves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth.”)2 PETER 2:1-3 (c. 64 C.E.)
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . .Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words.”
(See 2 Tim. 2:16-18–“their word will spread like gangrene.” Romans 16:17–“keep your eye on those who cause divisions.” 1 Cor 1:10–“there should not be divisions among you.”)
(Peter’s words proved ture. Sects, or divisions were already evident as historian Will Durant points out:
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.)2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 (c. 65 C.E.)
“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.”JUDE 3-4,10 (c. 65. C.E.)
“Beloved ones, though I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write you to exhort you to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. My reason is that certain men have slipped in . . .ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. . . .Yet these [men] are speaking abusively of all the things they really do not know.”
(You can feel Jude’s sadness. He truly wanted, no, was making “every effort” to speak of good things. But he “found it necessary” to exhort them to “put up a hard fight for the faith.” His “reason” for this was the “ungodly men” who had “slipped in” to the congregation. These men not only had left behind good Christian conduct, but they were speaking “of all the things they really [did] not know.”)
2 TIMOTHY 2:16-18 (c. 65 C.E.)
“But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naéus and Phi·létus are of that number. These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (See 1 Tim. 1:19,20; 2 Tim 3:13)
(Would this apostasy happen slowly? Is gangrene slow? Quite the opposite. And already there were some who were “subverting the faith” of others, teaching false doctrine, in this case “that the resurrection [had] already occurred.” Would things turn around? Paul wrote to Timothy: “They will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene.”)1 JOHN 2:18-19 (c. 98. C.E.)
“Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort.”1 JOHN 4:3 (c. 98 C.E.)
“but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s [inspired expression] which YOU have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.”2 JOHN 7 (c. 98 C.E.)
“For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
(Another false teaching, from the foretold false teachers. By this time “many deceivers” were already in “the world.”)REVELATION 2:2
“‘I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot bear bad men, and that you put those to the test who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them liars.”REVELATION 2:6
“Still, you do have this, that you hate the deeds of the sect of Nic·o·lá
;us, which I also hate.”REVELATION 2:9
“‘I know your tribulation and poverty—but you are rich—and the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan.”REVELATION 2:14-15
““‘Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have there those holding fast the teaching of Bálaam, who went teaching Bálak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication. So you, also, have those holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·láus likewise.”REVELATION 2:20
““‘Nevertheless, I do hold [this] against you, that you tolerate that woman Jeźe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols.”REVELATION 2:24
““‘However, I say to the rest of you who are in Thy·a·tíra, all those who do not have this teaching, the very ones who did not get to know the “deep things of Satan,” as they say: I am not putting upon YOU any other burden.”REVELATION 3:2
“Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your deeds fully performed before my God.”REVELATION 3:4
““‘Nevertheless, you do have a few names in Saŕdis that did not defile their outer garments, and they shall walk with me in white ones, because they are worthy.”REVELATION 3:9
“Look! I will give those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying —look! I will make them come and do obeisance before your feet and make them know I have loved you.”REVELATION 3:16-17
“So, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth. Because you say: “I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all,” but you do not know you are miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked,”For me there is a huge difference between being overtaken with emotions, and being in the presence of God. The rush is not the same for me being in the Throne Room as it was when I was front row/center at the Rick Springfield concert this summer, for instance.
While Rick is pretty thrilling, I must admit; being in God's presence is something that touches my very soul. God's presence is the only thing that feeds my soul. So for me, the emotions and goosebumps are secondary to the very real presence and breath of God Almighty.
It just dawned on me that that is where my confidence comes from (we were talking about faith and confidence going hand-in-hand earlier), the fact that God is real………I've felt his breath of life blow on my brow! I've experienced his loving embrace, and the comfort given to a child that mourns her mother. I've EXPERIENCED these things and more! God is real – I know this! I have confidence that my faith is true and real! I believe. But more importantly, I believe, I trust.
Kevin, rest in what you have been convinced of so far. Rest in knowing that you can only be responsible for what the LORD gives you – no more. Even our faith is a gift from God. You say Jesus brought you to God. Trust that for now.
1 Peter 1:21
…..Through him [Jesus] you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him
and so your faith and hope are in God.
Have a good night and I pray for the peace that passes ALL understanding to be yours tonight.
MandyMandy,
Actually I have much more peace now than in a long time. Well, about my spiritual life in any case
. Now I've got to do something about letting myself gain too much weight. That's why I changed my avatar some time back, to remind myself to spend less time in front of the 'puter and more time getting some exercise.Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2008,23:51) Quote What I'm getting at is there has to be a reason there are so many different beliefs within Christianity, and many more outside of it as well. Everyone thinks their interpretation is the correct one, yet we all say we are lead by the same unifying spirit. What's going on?
<—–SNIPPED MANY VERSESDavid, that was alot of work (unless you already had the list handy), but I think you fail to understand that the splintering of interpretations started not too long after Jesus. The history of Christianity shows there has never been a unification of Christianity. Paul even showed that he and the other Jewish Christians were really not the best of buds. I don't care how anyone tries to cover it up, but there was tension between Paul and James and Peter.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,23:20) Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2008,23:51) Quote What I'm getting at is there has to be a reason there are so many different beliefs within Christianity, and many more outside of it as well. Everyone thinks their interpretation is the correct one, yet we all say we are lead by the same unifying spirit. What's going on?
<—–SNIPPED MANY VERSESDavid, that was alot of work (unless you already had the list handy), but I think you fail to understand that the splintering of interpretations started not too long after Jesus. The history of Christianity shows there has never been a unification of Christianity. Paul even showed that he and the other Jewish Christians were really not the best of buds. I don't care how anyone tries to cover it up, but there was tension between Paul and James and Peter.
I agree Kejonn,It was this “tension” that lead me on my search for “the truth.”
I am not saying that Paul taught something absolutely different, (I have not come to any conclusions at this moment anyway), yet it is obvious to me that he taught “something” different.
I see it in the bible.
Scholars see it.
To top it all off we have early Christian writings declaring it. Paul was called everything from a false apostle to an apostate from the Law.
I don't have any intentions of causing Pauline Christians pain or doubt. I am not on a mission to destroy Paul or those who follow him.
I am on a mission to show a Jesus that says how we live matters and not a Jesus who says dont try since I did it for you.
Don't try I did it for you might make “a bit” of sense if Jesus actually had returned in Paul's life time. (which I think he probably taught was the case)
Give up on the world, give up on trying, put faith in Jesus and live as you are since he is coming back REAL SOON.
Why else would Paul tell slaves to obey their masters and just bide their miserable time until Jesus came back to get them.
Then I found the writings of other early Christians who reflected on what Jesus taught and not just on some idea of a cosmic human sacrifice.
It is reading about people who through their effort desired to bring out that “kingdom” that was “within” them and live as if it was here “on earth”.
The Amish are not to far off base. If only they were led less by totalitarian dogma and isolation and emphasized their teachings on love and spent more effort sharing this with the world then I think we would have one of the closest things to what Jesus taught.
Live like you are already in the “kingdom to come”.
Are we going to kill in the future kingdom? No! so dont do it now.
Are we going to eat meat in the future kingdom? No! so don't do it now.
Are we going to oppress women and bash gays? No! so don't do it now.
Basically, (much like the 90's WWJD movement) you could ask yourself:
What will we be doing in the Kingdom!
Then do it now!
kejonn,
I do not believe you have to possess all truth to be saved, however I believe we are responsible to seek for truth and will be held accountable for the truth we have. I do have unity with all brothers and sisters who are willing to die to self and are seeking YHWH through Yeshua (but that does not mean I won't have disagreements with them).To put it another way, I do not have to have doctrinal agreement with other believers to have unity of purpose. I'm first a servant of God and while many here frustrate me with their beliefs (I know I do the same to them) it is not my responsibility that they conform to what I believe as true (as I could be the one who is wrong) but it is my responsibility to love them and point out their errors (as I see it).
I want to be clear, truth is unchanging (it is not what we make it) most here possess a measure of truth but we all are deceived in various ways to varying degrees. By the nature of being deceived, we all believe we are right. With that said I have serious disagreements with some here, but I cannot deny their love for truth and through that we have love and unity with each other, and given time the Spirit will guide the deceived to truth (if love for truth is not lost along the way).
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2008,07:37) kejonn,
I do not believe you have to possess all truth to be saved, however I believe we are responsible to seek for truth and will be held accountable for the truth we have. I do have unity with all brothers and sisters who are willing to die to self and are seeking YHWH through Yeshua (but that does not mean I won't have disagreements with them).Well said. The only thing I find odd here is that you've said more than once that the church you attend believes Jesus is Yahweh. Therefore they are not truly seeking Yahweh through Jesus, but rather see them both as the same God.
Quote To put it another way, I do not have to have doctrinal agreement with other believers to have unity of purpose. I'm first a servant of God and while many here frustrate me with their beliefs (I know I do the same to them) it is not my responsibility that they conform to what I believe as true (as I could be the one who is wrong) but it is my responsibility to love them and point out their errors (as I see it). I want to be clear, truth is unchanging (it is not what we make it) most here possess a measure of truth but we all are deceived in various ways to varying degrees. By the nature of being deceived, we all believe we are right. With that said I have serious disagreements with some here, but I cannot deny their love for truth and through that we have love and unity with each other, and given time the Spirit will guide the deceived to truth (if love for truth is not lost along the way).
My opinion – Wm
Very well put. I believe I am right in my own mind but I am not so bold to say I am right and you are wrong. Because you can say the same about me and we end up disagreeing, either peacefully or otherwise.So in the end, either we are fairly convinced of what we believe or we wander. Or there is another option IMO: we continue to grow and don't sweat our differences. Differences will occur because we are human and not God.
Quote John 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.If we are Christians, we should have one thing in common, although we may not agree on certain doctrines or interpretation of scripture, and that is that we believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that God has raised him again from the dead. We know that this is true by the Spirit of God dwelling within us to testify to this reality.
The scripture states that we should study to show ourselves approved, “rightly dividing the word of truth”. And so, it takes study. When we Christians do not agree, we should not seek to divide but to seek unity by discussing our differences and going to God in prayer asking for His help in bringing us into unity.
God Bless
Well said 942767,
Truth is a fact that has been verified.However “truth” is not always easy to understand. A good example is if I say “I am lying” is this statement true??? Or, “snow is white” … the truth is we perceive it as white, but up close it no longer appears white.
Most items pertaining to our corporeal existence are subject to debate with the one exception that everyone can agree on is mathematics. The other exception, but we don't all agree on it as it transcends our reality, is God. Scripture tells us in John 18:37 … Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” 38″What is truth?” Pilate asked.
I believe that we can, by listening to Jesus and partaking of the Spirit of truth, achieve some level of “verification of facts” allowing us to arrive at this truth, YHWH is the Everlasting Father, God Almighty, creator of all things, saviour of my soul, worthy of all praise (how is that for narrow-minded), may God be praised!
Wm
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 23 2008,21:06) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2008,07:37) kejonn,
I do not believe you have to possess all truth to be saved, however I believe we are responsible to seek for truth and will be held accountable for the truth we have. I do have unity with all brothers and sisters who are willing to die to self and are seeking YHWH through Yeshua (but that does not mean I won't have disagreements with them).Well said. The only thing I find odd here is that you've said more than once that the church you attend believes Jesus is Yahweh. Therefore they are not truly seeking Yahweh through Jesus, but rather see them both as the same God.
Quote To put it another way, I do not have to have doctrinal agreement with other believers to have unity of purpose. I'm first a servant of God and while many here frustrate me with their beliefs (I know I do the same to them) it is not my responsibility that they conform to what I believe as true (as I could be the one who is wrong) but it is my responsibility to love them and point out their errors (as I see it). I want to be clear, truth is unchanging (it is not what we make it) most here possess a measure of truth but we all are deceived in various ways to varying degrees. By the nature of being deceived, we all believe we are right. With that said I have serious disagreements with some here, but I cannot deny their love for truth and through that we have love and unity with each other, and given time the Spirit will guide the deceived to truth (if love for truth is not lost along the way).
My opinion – Wm
Very well put. I believe I am right in my own mind but I am not so bold to say I am right and you are wrong. Because you can say the same about me and we end up disagreeing, either peacefully or otherwise.So in the end, either we are fairly convinced of what we believe or we wander. Or there is another option IMO: we continue to grow and don't sweat our differences. Differences will occur because we are human and not God.
kejonn,
Yes it is in the doctrine of the church I attend but it is rarely taught from the pulpit. I also have said that at one time I too believed that Jesus was equal to the Father (for 20 years), was I not “saved” during that time? some would say yes, but I know different. Many have placed their trust in the Son of God (without fully understanding all about him) and gained eternal life. I have no problem fellowshipping with those who have not yet arrived at possessing all truth (I among them), as long as they love the truth.Wm
Quote So in the end, either we are fairly convinced of what we believe or we wander. Or there is another option IMO: we continue to grow and don't sweat our differences. Differences will occur because we are human and not God. I agree for the most part but, there is a level of disagreement where I can no longer remain in fellowship (actually more a segment). It is with those who have forsaken truth, to me that does not include disagreements such as the nature of God (something we can truly never understand anyway) or other items which are difficult to understand.
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 23 2008,10:30) kejonn,
Yes it is in the doctrine of the church I attend but it is rarely taught from the pulpit. I also have said that at one time I too believed that Jesus was equal to the Father (for 20 years), was I not “saved” during that time? some would say yes, but I know different. Many have placed their trust in the Son of God (without fully understanding all about him) and gained eternal life. I have no problem fellowshipping with those who have not yet arrived at possessing all truth (I among them), as long as they love the truth.Wm
Some time back I joined another board that allowed both Christians and non-Christians. But they had a division of forums where only Christians could post. When they found out I did not believe Jesus was God, they wanted me to change my status to non-Christian. I did at first because I was just respecting the “rules” of the board (they had a definition of Christian that said you must believe Jesus is God) but then I cam back and told them they were wrong to define my faith. I challenged them to show me where one must believe Jesus is God in scripture to be a follower of Christ. After some discussion with some admins, they allowed me to change my status back to Christian. I stuck around for awhile but found that just like my last church, I could not “fellowship” with people that saw a different view of God than I did. Not in that environment anyways. Plus, since many people knew, they tended to pick at that part of my belief and try to use it as a battering ram.As I've also said in the past, I will stay until the Lord calls me out or they kick me out whichever comes first.
Wm:)
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 24 2008,03:57) Quote So in the end, either we are fairly convinced of what we believe or we wander. Or there is another option IMO: we continue to grow and don't sweat our differences. Differences will occur because we are human and not God. I agree for the most part but, there is a level of disagreement where I can no longer remain in fellowship (actually more a segment). It is with those who have forsaken truth, to me that does not include disagreements such as the nature of God (something we can truly never understand anyway) or other items which are difficult to understand.
Wm
Hi ST,
Do you break bread with them confirming their unity with you, and yours with them, in the body of Christ?
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