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Hi nate,
Can you not hear the pleading voice of a frustrated apostle in Hebrews 6 1-3? They had all been through the gate of salvation-and it is a gate and not just a path towards God-and he cannot get them to grow up. He wants them to see that the initial teachings about salvation can be left behind now and he wants to show them deeper things. Don't you want to do that too?I do.hey nick,
this kind of rhetoric is fine for political and spiritual leaders, but can you see how to me it just looks like a smokescreen to disguise the fact that you don't want to discuss the legitimacy of sources?
can we truly move on to “meat” if we can't trust anything that doesn't come from the bible? we have the spirit of god, don't we? shouldn't we be able to discern right from wrong based on the leading of the spirit and the law of god written on our hearts? either our consciences are seared (which i doubt), or we should be able to determine truth when we hear it…
i'm sorry if this sounds a bit condescending, and i'm sure i make myself a hypocrite with the above words, but seriously nick, it doesn't matter what you think of my beliefs, for your own sake you need to listen and consider what other people believe and why, otherwise you'll never be able to make a decision that isn't based on what the bible says… and you won't always be able to do that…
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
No smokescreen nate. You are right though. I have no interest in discussing other source of wisdom apart from the bible and known to be inspired writings so perhaps another member of the forum may though none has volunteered so far.
I have tried to interest you in discussing true wisdom from the Word but you don't seem to want to that so I don't know- looks like an impasse to me. What do you think?hey nick,
there's no such thing as an impasse… just a battle of wills…
even if we just talk about the bible, sooner or later we're going to come to a point where we don't agree… what happens at this point?
what does your experience on this board tell you will happen?
Hi nate,
I am sure like me that, at least you believe in mutual respect, forgiveness and freedom of choice of individuals? Christians are known for these qualities.
I respect your interests but do not share all them to the same depth and I am sure it is the reverse.
No such thing as a true impasse when there are no stubborn obstructions is there. Isn't that what love means?hey nick,
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I am sure like me that, at least you believe in mutual respect, forgiveness and freedom of choice of individuals? Christians are known for these qualities.
i agree… though for myself, regardless of intentions, i can't say i'm the very personification of christian love…so, i think at this stage, it's not really the content of our discussions that we have to look at, but the way we react when we meet opposition? – i mean, if we're really going to get passed the point of “impasse”, which i think we want to do…
what do you think?
sure, don't you?
“you're wrong”
“no, you're wrong”
“no, i think it is you who are wrong”
“well, you don't know what you're talking about”
“well, you're deceived”
“that's a lie from the pit of hell”
“no, yours is the lie from the pit of hell… and it's hotter!”
“no you!!”etc…
ok, so it isn't quite as blatant as that, but that's what it amounts to…
since i've been here, i don't recall seeing one matter resolved, i don't remember seeing one mind changed by reason or logic, i haven't experienced one constructive conversation which brings life… just a bunch of petty disputes… and i know i've contributed to these…
so, what i'm getting at is if we're going to “build up and edify” one another, i think we need to look at the way we're trying to resolve (or not resolve) disputes…
what do you think?
Bless you nate. I am pleased you finally got it off your chest and I hope you feel better. Yes . I love truth and will continue to defend it.
so, you don't think this is a problem?
So nate it is robust debate here you find difficulty with?
Fair enough. I have learned a lot from this form and continue to do so. Your contributions along with t8's, Adam Pastor, Ramblingrose, Is 1.18 and Whatistrue and many others have been very informative and if we look back I doubt if anyone has learned nothing, though you don't seem convinced. If questions were not asked would that information have been forthcoming?
The depth of knowledge of some is extraordinary and, of course, everyone is convinced they are right.
That makes a forum work does it not? Surely we all seek the same thing and so does the Lord. Unity has to be won by openness and honesty. Surely if anyone did not want their beliefs challenged then they would not come to this forum would they? As t8 says in the front page 'there are a lot of people on this forum who are passionate for truth and some may find it challenging'.
Surely that is fair enough – it would suggest that the debate will be vigorous? What do others think?hey nick,
i can't demand that no-one debate vigorously… i think we'd all agree that such a demand would curtail the freedom of every person on this board… and the ability to use that as they see fit…
what i'm trying to do, is suggest that perhaps there's a better way…
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If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
pretty self-explanitory… i'm sure paul needs no help from me… love is a better way than knowledge, but how do i show love?Quote
Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.
ok, so we may know all manner of things, but what is that knowledge if we cause others to sin? what if we provoke others to lose their temper, or force them into defending a lie rather than lose face? is truth found in knowledge or is it found in love? what does paul say?Quote
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one…
this is what we know… this is knowledge… but hang on…Quote
…not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.
so they don't have a full understanding of the freedom found in christ… we should educate them, right?Quote
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
so love is looking out for the weak… even if they're wrong? will we let them continue to believe a lie just so we don't cause them to sin? could this possibly be love? well, apparently it is… remember, one man plants, another waters, but it is god who brings forth the yield… so we have to trust that, no matter what we know, it is god who brings forth good fruit……and what fruit is that?
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The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and selfcontrol. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
now, it seems to me that there's a lot of the former fruit, and not much of the latter… but i can only speak for myself, and it's not for me to judge others…i'm seeking truth, as i believe are you, but – at the risk of repeating myself:
what is truth?
is it found in knowledge or is it found in love?
…of course the clever answer is that it's found in knowledge through love… but that still brings us back to love…
how can we say we love god, if we hate our brother? (and you can say you don't hate your brethren, but do you truly love them according to paul's definition of love?)
why do we seek knowledge when we know that we don't truly understand love? – or am i the only one that feels this way?
seriously, am i the only one that feels this way?
does no-one else want to seek love before knowledge? this is a plea!
Hi nate,
Of course these words of Paul are written to the saved, to the brothers of Jesus and those who have obeyed Jesus and gone through the gate. But this is not a forum where you can know who your brothers are. The love between the brothers of the Lord is special. Many here are not yet brothers as you will realise . Many who visit this site are totally unfamiliar with even the basics of christianity.
Nobody identifies themselves here or reveals anything about themselves except their knowledge. Everyone is shielded by barriers of anonymity and can you love or judge what is not known? I wonder. Is that wrong? No.
Should the gentle love of the brothers be extended also to those who are in dire need of salvation. Perhaps, but to some it would be just soothsaying-love that is not truthful to them is unhelpful surely? There is love, and love as any caring parent knows nate.
This is how a true forum works and that really is the point I want to make nate. No one is judged in this forum. Do you feel yourself and others are being judged or is it beliefs? Yes all sorts of beliefs are around and I had never realised how wide that range is before coming here. That has got to be good for the body of Christ for all to look at their beliefs isn't it.
I don't know if I can answer all your questions as you would like nate but there is always another view, and tolerance applies here too doesn't it?Quote (Guest @ Dec. 10 2004,17:34) why do we seek knowledge when we know that we don't truly understand love? – or am i the only one that feels this way?
We can seek both and if we make love the priority then we do well. Both are good, but love is better.I agree that we shouldn't be arguing to prove who is right, rather what is right. But if we love truth then we will seek it and not ignore it. We will also not accept lies, for no lie is of love.
Love also encompasses love for truth, but seeking truth without love is pointless and worthless. Truth without love cannot be used in the way it was meant to be used and love without truth is not true love.
As it is written, love is the greatest. It is greater than hope and faith.
hey guys,
a simple “no” would have sufficed…
i want to pursue love because i have come to the belief that truth can only be found through love… i can understand your difficulty with this – i have also believed as you do…
let me ask you something (and don't answer until you've thought this through completely – i'm not interested in stock answers and bible jargon, but in what you think after having really thought about what i say next)…
in the garden of eden, there were two trees… one led to life, the other to death… the one that led to death was called “knowledge of good and evil”… so when we seek knowledge, what is our purpose?
is it to know the truth so we can be as god?
is it to know good from evil?
is it so that we can be more acceptable in god's eyes?
is it so we can better educate those among us who we think are deceived?
is there any reason to seek knowledge which will result in life?
before you answer, please read the following passages and dwell on what you think the writers are actually trying to say:
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Romans 141Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ ” 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
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1 Corinthians 131If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not selfseeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
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1 John 41Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we
are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
why should we pursue knowledge?even if you choose not to respond, think about this – seriously think about it – perhaps it will change your whole understanding of truth, as it is changing mine…
cheers,
nate.
Hi,
2 Peter 1,
” Simon Peter, a bond servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ our Lord;seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness , through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises , in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence,
in your faith supply moral excellence,
and in your moral excellence ,knowledge,
and in your knowledge self control, perseverence,
and in your perseverence, godliness,
and in your godliness brotherly kindness,
and in your brotherly kindness, Christian love,
For if these qualities are yours and are increasing they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord, Jesus Christ”farewell nick, t8, etc…
our paths seem to be diverging for now, but i wish you all well and hope we'll meet up again before the end…
cheers,
nate.
Hi ,
For the benefit of others who read these posts the scripture from 2 Peter shows clearly
1.That these teachings are for those who have been saved. As 1Cor 12-13 shows these are spiritual gifts that are added to the saved who seek them to enable further growth into the fulness of the Body of Christ
2. That Knowledge is essential in the early stages of that building, coming only after the changes in moral behaviour.That is because everything has to be spiritually assessed an you need knowledge to do that.Lack of knowledge makes one easy prey for deception.
3. Love between the brothers overlays everything else as the cloak surrounding and unifying the Body of Christ. Love is the most important brick in the building but the foundations must be laid in correct order.The essential value of Knowledge is well laid out especially in early Chapters of Proverbs and follows Fear of the Lord.[v7]
Prov 10.14,18.15,24.4,etc.are valuable. It is essential to combat deception [2.cor 10.51Tim 6.20, 2 Tim 2.25, Tit 4.2 And Is 28.9 shows it is not for babes on milk.we all know everything has traps but that does not mean it should not be hungrily sought and shared.
Quote (Guest @ Dec. 13 2004,19:00) i want to pursue love because i have come to the belief that truth can only be found through love… i can understand your difficulty with this – i have also believed as you do… let me ask you something (and don't answer until you've thought this through completely – i'm not interested in stock answers and bible jargon, but in what you think after having really thought about what i say next)…
in the garden of eden, there were two trees… one led to life, the other to death… the one that led to death was called “knowledge of good and evil”… so when we seek knowledge, what is our purpose?
is it to know the truth so we can be as god?
is it to know good from evil?
is it so that we can be more acceptable in god's eyes?
is it so we can better educate those among us who we think are deceived?
is there any reason to seek knowledge which will result in life?
To Nate,My motivation is not truth for truth sake. For surely when I was in the world I had no love for truth. But when God's Spirit dwelt within me I had a passion for truth (that I still find amazing). I believe that this came not of my flesh, but of the Spirit. Would you not say that a love of the truth comes from God?
So should we give up on truth for the sake of love? Surely not. For truth is of love. For such is the importance of truth that God would allow his son to say that he was the truth.
Yes there are 2 trees and one has a good and evil side to it. But knowledge and truth can be seen as different. Knowledge is just plain and simple know how or technology. I am in the IT industry and I use technology everyday. I have knowledge that I use in my profession everday. But let's get this straight, knowledge and truth are not the same. Truth comes from the tree of life, it is rooted in God himself. That is why the Devil is called the Father of Lies. He is the adversary of God.
I see my love for the truth as something that doesn't come from flesh nature. How can I give up on truth if the Spirit of Truth dwells in me. For he will lead me into all truth. So why is it surprising that I should pursue truth and wisdom as if it were gold.
I will not abandon the truth that God has shown me and I will put on other hearts what God has put on mine. For if I were not to do this, then I would be lacking in love. This is one way that I show the love of God, by sharing my love for the truth. We all show love in different ways do we not?
Is it right to question a way of showing love if it is not the same as the way that you show love?
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