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Hi nate,
Religious leaders and politicians have always used the gospels to justify their humanistic visions and to control their subjects.This is of the world.Jesus said 'my kingdom is not of this world'
Of those with the antichrist spirit 1Jn says 'They are from the world;therefore they speak as from the world and the world listens to them'
hey nick,
as you say, religious leaders and politicians… but does this change truth? can truth be bound by what we see? can we fit truth into our doctrines and say, anything outside this is not truth?
what i'm trying to say, nick, is that jesus is not affiliated with any denomination… he is the truth, and those who follow him worship in spirit and in truth, regardless of whether they fellowship in a catholic church or a protestant church or an episcopalian church, or whether they don't go to a church at all… these are the ones who are part of the “invisible church” and i don't think it's for us to judge which ones they are – they're the ones god chooses, not us…
but truth is not dependant on the vessel either… if i speak the truth, can't i also speak lies? both life and death are at work in me at once… so why should i not consider truth from another vessel? even the greatest vessel is going to have death working in it… should we then disregard everything everyone else says? in fact, should we disregard even our own revelations, because we are all sinners… ??
fortunately, god is the source of all truth, and the spirit was given to guide us into all truth… so we can be sure that he'll keep us on the right path if it's him we seek…
do you understand what i'm saying?
Nate ,
When Paul came to Athens he felt as he would if he came to any city or town in the world today.
Acts 17″Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was beholding the city full of idols”
But when he spoke to the people he said
“Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects”
Religious, sincere, prayerful-but deluded and deceived and not worshipping God.
As paul said about the jews who did not respond to the gospel in Rom 10
” Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God is for their salvation. For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God”Zeal is not enough. Worship must be in accord with revealed truth. Salvation is in Jesus and true worship is in Spirit and in truth.
hey nick,
i'm not sure i understand what you're saying…
i don't think being religious or zealous is the same as seeking truth… ??
btw. by “we” i mean all those who are searching for truth, which certainly includes me, and i believe also includes you…
cheers,
nate.
sure nate,
truth searching is for a purpose….to find the truth about salvation first ….and go through the gate…and then keep searching for the truths that are eternal as that is the food of his followers. Searching just to know but not act is the work of philosophers.do you agree??hey nick,
yep… just like faith – without works it is dead…
personally i wouldn't call salvation a gate though – i think it's more of a process… but i do understand your perspective…
the way i look at it is kind of like this:
when we choose to search for truth, the spirit is there to guide us… and jesus is before us (as “the” truth)… we may recognise him (we may hear the gospel, and accept it) or we may just know that it's truth we're seeking…
regardless of this, i think a person searching for truth can be presented which the “true” gospel of jesus christ at any stage along that journey, and if they are truly searching, they'll accept the truth of the gospel (though some might not accept straight away, because they haven't journeyed far enough, or crossed certain mantal/spiritual barriers)…
but in the end, all men are judged by god, and those who have chosen to follow truth, those than live according to the law of christ (which is the law of love) will be the ones which christ intecedes for (because no man can be saved through his own righteousness, but through jesus who is the perfect sacrifice)…
does this make sense?
cheers,
nate.
yes nate ,
I know that is what you believe but it is the gospel of nate and not that of Jesus.
The gate is the words of Jesus in John 10hey nick,
of course it's the gospel according to nate… and your belief is the gospel according to nick…
i know you think that the bible justifies your beliefs, but we all think that…
now, i'm not denying that jesus is the gate… in fact, i said so in my last post…
Quote
(because no man can be saved through his own righteousness, but through jesus who is the perfect sacrifice)…
but i'm saying that it's not for us to decide who will and who won't be saved… and if this is the case, why should we judge the message because of the vessel… we don't know where a person is on their journey… and those that appear to be pure on the outside may be full of decay – like the pharisees…again, think about balaam's donkey – was it saved? had it passed through the gate? no, it was just a donkey… think about the high priest, he prophecied about one many dying for the good of many… not only was his heart wrong, but he denied jesus, yet god spoke through him… look at samson, who disobeyed god's commandment, and yet the spirit of god came upon him and god used him… god will use whatever source no matter how pure or unpure – is it for us to dictate which source is valid, or should we consider all things to see whether god is speaking to us through them?
can you see what i'm getting at? i'm not specifically talking about salvation, but about truth, the ultimate source of truth, and the vessels he chooses to speak through…
cheers,
nate.
hey nick,
the relevance of what i'm talking about is that every time i mention a source which you don't agree with – for whatever reason – you disregard it altogether, and communication breaks down…
so i mention the prayer of st francis, you call him a humanist… end of discussion.
i mention an essay by thomas merton, you call him a catholic… end of discussion.
regardless of whether these guys have made any contributions to truth, you have judged them based on their “religion”, and disregarded their message – which may be from god or not, but we don't know, because we can't discuss it…
do you see what i'm getting at?
Ok nate but who is judging now? I am not an expert in theology and am much more interested in looking at issues from a biblical background. Is that not acceptable to you?
hey nick,
i apologise for being blunt…
i have no problem whatsoever with looking at issues from a biblical background… i just think that we should weigh the issues, and not the issuer… agreed?
what's the point of discussion then?
hi nate,
At least the members of this forum, if they wanted to come to some agreement and reach common ground with Paul, should be able to move past Hebrews 6 . 1-3. That would be making useful progress. Put the baby stage of milk in the past and then we could digest some meat together? But to even get to the milk stage you have to be born again.
Do you agree?i'm not sure i understand what you're trying to say?
you've lost me there… ??
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