- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi nate,
That is the love of the Father towards His children and true love between the brothers of Jesus. By “Us” I presume you mean the saved rather than the whole world? In this forum there are the saved and the unsaved so you really do not know where people are coming from unless they tell you.These words are part of Paul's letters to the saved so cannot be taken out of that context and applied to the world.Do you agree?
Many people misunderstand the love of God and some even go as far as to say that God is so loving that he would not allow anyone to not be saved. The sort of Father Christmas God who only blesses everyone who thinks they are good.
That sort of deception is opposed to the teaching of Jesus and the whole Word of God.
However God holds the door of salvation to all until the last possible moment so that as many as possible can enjoy again the Love of God forever.
ps Having said that everything in creation shows the love of God. God sends his rain on the just and the unjust alike and his mercy is expressed everywhere towards all. Why would anyone who is aware of that love not respond to the message of His Son? His Son was sent because of that love to give everyone a chance of rescue from the disasters coming on earth and the pool of fire for eternity.
hey nick,
i think the fact that god “so loved the world that he gave his only son”, indicates that his love is all encompassing, don't you?
also, i don't think that we should distinguish between “saved” and “unsaved” – surely that's for god to decide… as you've said before: the wheat and the tares are sown together… however, i think that just as jesus was known by his works:
Quote
John 10
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
so are the pure and defiled known:Quote
Titus 1
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
so we might know that a person is defiled according to their works, but we don't judge them according to that knowledge, because we know that the measure we use to judge others will be used against us… so in effect we are the gauge of our own salvation – if we forgive others, then god will forgive us. if we're patient and never give up on others, god will be patient and not give up on us… so, he that is without sin may throw the first stone – the rest of us should forgive so that we will be forgiven in turn… and he that is forgiven much, loves much…sorry for the rave, i'm just trying to assemble these thoughts in my brain… feel free to comment…
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
You confuse me and I need to know what are your beliefs about salvation.
Do you agree with this site's teaching on salvation or not? If not then at least we can compare apples with apples.
Do you believe in salvation by works?
Do you believe in salvation by faith alone?
Do you believe a decision to follow Christ is enough for God?Do you think you can know about salvation or is hope your best offer?
Do you think God requires signs of us and that we witness to our faith by repentance and baptism?The point is nate is that God does have the final say but He has appointed a path for us to follow to receive salvation, and know we have received it.
Now that means that those who teach must strictly adhere to what is revealed in these matters to help others and not confuse them. We are not to preach the exceptions but the simple facts and leave the exceptions to the mercy of God.The word “pure” to me means “simple and straightforward” in tha context while total confusion is the fate of the unsaved. What do you think?
The use of the word “saints” and ” saved ” is frequent in the NT letters so I use them in the same context.
ps” Above all ,keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins”
1Pet 4.8
and “Mercy triumphs over judgement”and, of course, forgiveness is the currency of the kingdom… that is why we are reminded of it in the daily prayer-the Our Father.
hey nick,
Quote
You confuse me and I need to know what are your beliefs about salvation.
oky-doke…Quote
Do you agree with this site's teaching on salvation or not? If not then at least we can compare apples with apples.
if you mean this:Quote
1Tim 2:4 & John 14:6 God “desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”, and Jesus Christ is that truth.
Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me”.
Out of his great love for us, God created us to share in his blessed life. He continually calls mankind to seek him and to love him. Through his son Jesus, he wants us to become his childrenJesus invites you to share in eternal life with him.
Matt 11:28-30 “Come to me, all you who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.”
Again Jesus says ” I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays his life down for the sheep”. John 10:11
sure, i agree…if you mean this:
Quote
You need to acknowledge that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek him.
You must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who became man.
You must also acknowledge that you are a sinner and repent of your sins and false beliefs.
You need to find a church or a baptised believer to help you undergo baptism in the name of Jesus.
You are now baptised into Jesus and you must ask your new Father God for the gift of the Holy Spirit to help and guide you.
You should read your bible and learn more about God and his Spirit, by which he inspired the bible and all scripture.
It is necessary to meet with and break bread with other Christians as they together with you make up the Body of Christ on earth and they will encourage you on your new path.
Learn to pray daily to your new Father and the “Our Father” prayer Jesus taught us has everything in it you need to pray about.
Live as a decent, kind and friendly person sharing the love of God in all you do.
i don't disagree, but let me expand on this…Quote
Do you believe in salvation by works?
i believe god knows us by our works, or at least by the motivation behind our works… ie. love or fear… i believe that love is of god, but fear is the love of ourselves…Quote
Do you believe in salvation by faith alone?
i believe faith is the evidence of things unseen… but i think that our faith is proportional to our works… if our works are obligatory so is our faith, if our works are minimal so is our faith, if our works are great and done from a motivation of love, then we have great faith… i believe salvation belongs to those whose faith and works reflect the love of god.Quote
Do you believe a decision to follow Christ is enough for God?Do you think you can know about salvation or is hope your best offer?
to answer the first i would say that if we truly choose to follow jesus, our works will reflect that decision… for the second, i believe that if we've died to all else, only faith, hope and love remain… so, yeh i think we have hope, but we also have faith, and if we have love, we are of god… and i think the holy spirit confirms with our spirit that we are of god…Quote
Do you think God requires signs of us and that we witness to our faith by repentance and baptism?
i don't think baptism is a sign to god but to ourselves… a symbol if you would, for conscience' sake. i think some people look on these rituals as the actually act of salvation, others as a symbol of the decision they've made… my personal opinion is somewhat like the latter, but i wouldn't tell anyone to be baptised if they didn't express the desire, nor would i tell them not to get baptised if they did… i think it comes down to the individual, and god knows their heart…repentance, i think, we've discussed earlier… i don't think you can follow jesus without repentance, but that's because we'll invariably be walking down the highway of self-gratification, and turning towards god requires turning away from ourselves… this turning around is what is meant by repentance… it could be a vocal instantaneous decision, or it could be a gradual change (in fact, whether an instant decision is made or not, i think the change is gradual)… i don't think it matters whether there's a verbal repentance or not…
hope this helps you understand where i'm coming from a bit better…
onto other things:
Quote
The word “pure” to me means “simple and straightforward” in tha context while total confusion is the fate of the unsaved. What do you think?
yeh, simple and straightforward seem good to me… or clean… i think this verse talks about the way we look at things… the pure person sees the purity of all god's creation, but the defiled project their defiled understanding onto all things… so the pure man will see a woman as a beautiful example of god's creation, but the defiled man will see her as a symbol of his defiled self-gratification… does this make sense?cheers,
nate.
Thanks nate,
But does God agree with your salvation ideas? Isn't His opinion the most important?
I think you have said before you believe there are many ways to God but where is the scriptural evidence? Is God like a committee that approves every man's way he likes to be saved?
Your way will always have the nagging doubt that maybe it is insufficient to meet God's standards won't it? Will you have confidence on meeting your saviour face to race that you have done enough, loved enough?
Wouldn't it be better to do the simple thing and obey God like the Leper who finally agreed to be washed in the river as advised by Elisha. God's way seems foolish in man's eyes but God's wisdom is proven by her children.
Thanks for the info thohey nick,
yet again, i'm going to be point-form lazy…
Quote
But does God agree with your salvation ideas? Isn't His opinion the most important?
as you say… god is the judge… and jesus said that he'll judge me according to the measure i use with others, so if i'm to have confidence in my salvation, i'll have to show lots of grace (because i need lots of grace)… among other things…Quote
I think you have said before you believe there are many ways to God but where is the scriptural evidence? Is God like a committee that approves every man's way he likes to be saved?
on the contrary, i think that the only way to god is through jesus… i just don't agree with the concept that all who follow jesus must act, look and believe in a certain way… moreover, i think there are many people who for whatever reason have never heard the true gospel, yet show by their works that they follow jesus (the scriptural evidence for which we've been through previously)… i think that god approves of his son, and his son intercedes for those whom he knows…Quote
Your way will always have the nagging doubt that maybe it is insufficient to meet God's standards won't it? Will you have confidence on meeting your saviour face to race that you have done enough, loved enough?
Wouldn't it be better to do the simple thing and obey God like the Leper who finally agreed to be washed in the river as advised by Elisha. God's way seems foolish in man's eyes but God's wisdom is proven by her children.
but my hope of salvation is in jesus alone – we're saved, but by jesus' recommendation to the father… ultimately god will have mercy on who he will have mercy, as paul told the romans… but love protects all things, trusts all things, hopes all things, perseveres all things, and love never fails… and knowing that god protects, trusts, hopes, and perseveres with me – in short, that god loves me – i have faith that his son will say he knows me, regardless of my shortcomings…now i have a question for you: i infer from your last post that you don't agree with what i say, and that's alright – if i'm wrong, the last thing i want is to lead anyone else down the wrong path – but why is it that you don't agree? is it because there's a fundamental flaw in my reasoning, or is it because it differs from what you believe?
another question: do you believe in god because he's your only hope of salvation, or because you've found him to be true? would you believe a lie if it meant you could keep your hope of salvation?
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
I don't disagree with you because I am not yet quite sure of your stance. You say “we're saved” .Who is we?
You say “the only way to God is through Jesus” What do you mean in bible terms?
You say God will judge you as you judge others. What judgement is this in the bible?
Are you only hoping for mercy?
Have you no assurance of your salvation?
You say God approves of His Son and His Son intercedes for those He knows. How does he know anyone in bible terms?The only thing I don't hear you say is that God loves you because you are IN His Son ,not just that the Son knows you.
I know the love of God in my life and have seen the amazing beauty and harmony and the reflection of His nature in the Word and I need no other proof. Yes I have found Him to be true and am fully committed to Him and would be far more likely to find I am a liar than Him. I believe in my heart and not just my head.
Hi nate,
Salvation is described in three ways in the Word.You have been saved
You are being saved
You will be savedThe first description is the most important. It shows that the teaching of Jesus in John 3 and 10 and the preaching and application of these teachings by the apostles in Acts is real.
2Tim 19″ God has saved us and has called us to a holy life, not because of any merit of ours but according to His own design-the grace held out to us in Christ Jesus before the world began”
Eph 2.4″ But God is rich in mercy;because of His great love for us He brought us to life with Christ when we were dead in sin.By this favor you were saved”
Rom 8.24″ In hope we were saved. But hope is not hope if it's object is seen;how is it possible for one to hope for what one sees?””
The second and third descriptions [eg1 Peter 16-12] show that we do not yet fully experience that salvation which will be revealed when Jesus returns. It also shows we must hold onto the faith and true doctrine till that time to enjoy that salvation.The Way is not popular. It is treated more often with the disdain of the Athenians than the openness of the Bereans. But it is the guaranteed safe path and to encourage us God gives us the downpayment pledge of His Spirit that we may now experience what that new life will be like.
So I do not rely on reasoning but what is revealed in the Word on a matter as vital as this and I hope I have expressed clearly what I believe as you have asked so you can compare and show me where I err too.
As Peter said in Jn 6.68
” Lord .To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe ;we are convinced you are God's holy one”Hi nate,
It seems to me that what you say about salvation is that those who love God and their works show their love for God then God knows them and they will be saved.
But Cornelius was a God fearing and generous man and God knew him. So he sent him Peter to tell him about the kingdom and give him an opportunity to be saved by the way of Christ.
So he still had to pass through the Gate. He still had to be born again of water and the Spirit.
Jesus said anyone who does not go through the gate but comes in some other way is a thief and a robber.Those who truly love God will respond to the message of His Son and obey him.
“Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies it remains of itself alone”.hey nick,
Quote
I don't disagree with you because I am not yet quite sure of your stance. You say “we're saved” .Who is we?
i don't actually recall saying this, but i would say that only god knows who “we” are – the ones who are doing his work… the true bride if you would…Quote
You say “the only way to God is through Jesus” What do you mean in bible terms?
jesus said, i am the way the truth and the life, no-one comes to the father except through me… and, he who believes in me believes in the one who sent me…Quote
You say God will judge you as you judge others. What judgement is this in the bible?
jesus said, judge not lest you be judged yourself, for with whatever measure you use to judge, you will be judged… and, if you cannot forgive your brother, how can your father in heaven forgive you…Quote
Are you only hoping for mercy?
yes…Quote
Have you no assurance of your salvation?
i have the assurance of faith, and of the holy spirit.. of course, i could be imagining the latter, and the former is evidence of things unseen, so it cannot be proved… but then, if i have hard proof, my faith is worthless, and without faith it is impossible to please god…Quote
You say God approves of His Son and His Son intercedes for those He knows. How does he know anyone in bible terms?
jesus said, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit… by their fruit you will know them…Quote “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' and what is the will of the father?
Quote 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Quote
I know the love of God in my life and have seen the amazing beauty and harmony and the reflection of His nature in the Word and I need no other proof. Yes I have found Him to be true and am fully committed to Him and would be far more likely to find I am a liar than Him. I believe in my heart and not just my head.
well, it sounds every bit as irrational as my own faith… isn't it good to know that god looks on our heart not our intellect?but the point of my question, perhaps too cleverly disguised, was to get you to think about one thing – in which endeavour your questions above indicate to me i failed… so let me be more blunt:
you're interpretation of the bible is based on the understanding that it is the divine word of god, right? so, my question is this – is your belief in jesus dependant on that understanding being maintained and protected at all costs? if someone proved to you that this was not the case, would it cause you to lose your faith?
i don't need you to respond to this if you don't want to, the reason i ask is because i want you to think about “why” you interpret the bible the way you do… i'm not trying to disprove your understanding – it would be presumptuous of me to deny that god “could” dictate his message to the early church writers as a record for us – but if your understanding means that you would not consider another perspective because it disagrees with this understanding, doesn't that put your faith into a box? with god all things are possible, including your perception of truth, including my perception of truth… do you understand what i'm trying to say?
what is the cornerstone of your faith, and how does everything else relate to this?
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
Finally you come clean! Thank you for your answers to my questions. You seem to have indicated that you rely on the OT [law and prophets] commandments and the mercy of God for salvation. If you are happy with that then I cannot change that but I would advise you not to teach it to others as there is a better way.
Remember our righteousness is as filthy rags and that is why we rely on the righteousness of the Son of God. That is why also it is necessary to be baptised into him to receive that advantage.
I would like to point out too that the OT was for the Jews so if that is your main plank of hope you will need to actually become a Jew and a perfect one.
I also would like you to enjoy more security in your salvation by considering the way of Jesus as this is the plan of God for the gentiles and it is a lot easier.
The Holy Spirit is only given to those who are following the way of Jesus under the new covenant [though Cornelius got it just before] so unless you are on that path you will not likely have the help of the Spirit.
The mercy of God is for those of the world who are not of the NT and it is a risk to rely on that means.
I do not guarantee my faith surviving challenge as I am only a weak and ignorant man. But my Shepherd is caring for me and promises none of the sheep will be lost in his care. I have faith in him.
I no longer need proof the bible is the inspired word of God and that is where my foundation is laid as that is where he said we should lay it. Scripture backs itself up and interprets itself. As well the Spirit that wrote it confirms in us the truth and reminds us where the treasures are hidden. So there is a double security.
No I am not worried about any man being able to pull down what he has built.
Jesus saidin Jn 8.17
“It is laid down in your law that evidence given by two persons is valid”
The Word says about Jesus in 1 Jn 5.6f
” Jesus Christ it is who came through Water and blood -not in water only but in water and blood .It is the Spirit that testifies to this.Thus there are three that testify; the Spirit, the water and the blood-and these three are of one accord”Jesus has his evidence recorded before God and we too need those witnesses and cannot stand on our own observations. We need our names written in the book of Life.
hey nick,
well, thanks for setting me straight, hehe… but did you read my response?
let me refresh your memory…
Quote
jesus said, i am the way the truth and the life, no-one comes to the father except through me… and, he who believes in me believes in the one who sent me…Quote
jesus said, judge not lest you be judged yourself, for with whatever measure you use to judge, you will be judged… and, if you cannot forgive your brother, how can your father in heaven forgive you…Quote
jesus said, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit… by their fruit you will know them…Quote
“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
these are all the words of jesus, and they all confirm my belief that jesus is the only way to salvation…the only mention i made of the law and the prophets was in quoting jesus' statement:
Quote
12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
now, if you think that this means i believe in the law and the prophets, fine… but i wonder that can say you believe in jesus, and that you believe the bible is the divine word of god, and in the next breath claim that the very words of jesus written in the bible are not for those who believe in him??sure, i said my hope was in god's mercy, having not seen the “only” until after i posted it… but regardless of this, as i've already said, (and as the bible says, so i wonder again that you don't believe it) god will have mercy on who he has mercy… perhaps you should read paul's letter to the romans again?? he makes some very interesting points on salvation…
now, back to my question… are you thinking about it? is your faith in jesus, or is it in the bible?
cheers,
nate.
ah, sorry nick… that was harsh of me… it's not my place to tell you what you should and shouldn't do…
if my words don't produce good fruit, then i guess we know which tree they're coming from… hey, if you feel that the spirit of god confirms your beliefs, that's more than good enough for me…
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
Sorry we may have crossed wires again. Yes Jesus did speak different words to different audiences.
Some he spoke to his closest disciples.
Some to his other followers.
But much of what he said was to the Jews who had not repented or received the baptism of John that they might understand his mission[Lk 7.30]
So when the rich young man asked him what should he do to inherit eternal life [Mt 19.17f]he got the answer others got when they asked that question.
“Obey the commandments”
That is because that is the correct answer to that question.But it is not what we do that saves us. We are dependant on what Jesus has done.
Jesus is the Truth so he cannot lie and we need to remember to ask the right question. When the rich young man persisted Jesus gave him the answer he gives us “Follow me”
My faith is in Jesus and the bible. First in Jesus as he is the foundation stone and then in the bible as it is the rock that the stone must be laid on.
Hi nate,
You said Jesus was a servant of the world. But he himself said no man can serve two masters-he will love one and hate the other. So as that also applies to him he cannot be a servant to the world. He is constantly described as the servant of God in the Word [eg Is 49.3,,6;52 .13 etc]Of course he wants us to serve one another humbly because we serve him in each other and he is our master.
The scriptures about salvation in Romans that you feel I do not understand-can you show me which ones you mean?Surely true faith involves obedience. Jesus brought two new commands. One for all [You must be born again] and the other to the brothers [ love one another as I have loved you]
If baptism is optional then what do you make of the response of the Eunuch to the message of Philip in Acts 8? We do not know what Philip said . We know he was teaching only from the OT [Isaiah 53.7f].
All we know is that
” Philip launched out with this scripture as his starting point telling him the good news of Jesus. As they moved along they came to some water, and the eunuch said
' Look there is some water right there .What is to keep me from being baptised? '
He ordered the carriage stopped, and Philip went down and baptised him. When they came out of the water the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more. Nevertheless the man went on his way rejoicing “Not only was he apparently told he must be baptised but even the eunuch appreciated it was urgent. There is not even the suggestion that man needed to do anything else as Philip was taken away immediately after, showing that following obedience to God, God can do the rest. Salvation is His work.
hey nick,
i don't want to argue with you over this…
i understand what you believe, and why you believe it – and i can respect that… i also respect the fact that you've put a lot of research into seeking the truth… i think the fact that we don't agree is due to our differing perspectives, this doesn't mean that one is right and the other is wrong, but that we see things differently…
if we were looking at half an apple, and i was looking from the skin side, i would say that the apple was smooth, red and glossy, but you would say that the apple is white with seeds and perhaps a worm… and we're both right…
if i was then to say – no, there are no seeds, i would be wrong, and you would know i was wrong… you could tell me what you see and if i believed you then i would have a fuller understanding of the apple… but it doesn't make what i see any less true, it just shows me a different perspective of the apple…
the apple is made up of what we can and can't see, and while we know what we see is true according our understanding, we have to accept that there is more to truth than what we perceive… otherwise we'd be perfect, and as we know, perfection hasn't yet come to pass…
but there is one thing which is eternal, and that is love… i could stand where i was, and continue to descibe the apple as i see it, but unless i actually come off my high-horse and walk around to try and see the apple from your perspective, i'm never actually going to understand what you see… it's love that makes us do this – jesus said, do unto others as you'd have them do to you… so if i want you to see my perspective, love says that i should see your perspective (regardless of whether you reciprocate)… but love is so much more than this…
so, i propose that we continue to talk about love…
cheers,
nate.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
