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hey nick,
i think all selfless love is from god… and if we continually die to our selfish desires, the spirit of love will continue to grow in us…
john 21:15-17 speaks of two forms of love – agapao and phileo… the former is to dearly love (from the word “agan” meaning “much”), the latter is to approve of or treat with affection…
so twice jesus asks peter “do you love [agapao] me more than these”, to which peter replies, “lord you know i love [phileo] you…” then jesus asks, “do you love [phileo] me”, to which an aggrieved peter replies the same…
but in each occassion, jesus' response to peter is, “then feed my sheep”…
in other words, regardless of whether peter has affection for jesus, or whether he truly loves him, the application of that love is to see to the needs of the brethren…
so, i think that if we commit to selfless love, god will make up for our lack…
what do you think?
cheers,
nate.
yes. Love is action. But who can be selfless? It is fine to talk about being selfless but no one is and all we can ask of ourselves is daily turning up for service to the Commander and taking on the little tasks he gives and doing our best.
hey nick,
i agree that it's difficult to be selfless, but i think this is why jesus said it's difficult for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven, and you can't serve both god and mammon – because as ben harper says, “the more you have the more you have to lose”… people who have little, or don't hold their possessions dear, will be more willing to part with the little they have, and that god finds this selfless giving (or love) more precious than all our other “religious duties”… as james said, “true religion is going to the orphan and the widow” – in other words, true religion is looking after those who don't have the means to look after themselves…
as to whether an act is of selfless or whether it is selfish: as jesus said, we can proclaim every good act we do, but then we have our reward – self gratification… on the other hand, we could just do acts of love which aren't noticed by those around us, and which don't benefit us… and our reward will be in heaven (though actually, i think our reward will also be on earth, because our faith and that of our brethren will be strengthened as we show the evidence of our belief)…
what do you think?
cheers,
nate.
I say it is impossible because as soon as you look at the little vain swine he grows another leg. If you know what I mean.
hehe… yeh, i know what you mean…
with man this is impossible, but with god all things are possible…
i think that when god sees us trying to show our love for others, then he sees a reflection of himself and his son, and he'll nurture that so that we can “endure to the end”… but if we only show a desire for selfishness he'll give us over to the lusts of our flesh…
so, we mightn't overcome our selfish desires in this life – even paul said, the very things i hate i end up doing, and the things i don't want to do, those things i do (i think this is why he said, i die daily – every day brings it's new challenges, which i think you were alluding to)… but god's grace is sufficient for our failings…
i think also, that the body should play an important part in the nurturing of this (and the other fruits of the spirit, eg love, joy, peace, etc)… what do you think??
cheers,
nate.
But nate we need to follow the Spirit's lead. One thing done in the will of God is worth a million done in our own strength.
Gal 5
“Since we live by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit's lead”..
haha… but we could spend all day waiting for the spirit to lead us, when all along the spirit is wanting us to step out in faith…
i understand what you mean… but i know a lot of people (myself included) who use the “i'm waiting on the lord” line as a cop-out for not doing anything…
what do you think – is there a difference between love and compassion?
Hi nate,
I think compassion has an element of pity in it as well as love…as when Jesus saw the crowds that had followed him were hungry and he fed them.
But there are many who presume God has some fantastic task to do to save the world and yet he only wants them to be a witness to His love and kindness among their neighbours. The old Malcolm Muggeridge idea of ' doing something beautiful for God ' is not necessarily doing His will.
When John the Baptist was asked what behaviour changes were needed he only suggested small commonsense changes.
“My yoke is easy. My burden is light”.do you think that jesus pitied the 5000?
i always thought that he loved them because they had followed him out into the wilderness without any food, just because they wanted to hear his words of wisdom – he saw their hunger for god outwayed their need for food, and he loved them…
but that's just my perspective…
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
Mt 15.32 ” Jesus called his disciples to him and said
“My heart is moved with PITY for the crowd. By now they have been with me 3 days, and have nothing to eat. I do not wish to send them away hungry for fear they may collapse on the way”
He loved them any way not because they were following him and listening to him. Love tinged with mercy.hey nick,
yeh, i can see how it could be interpreted as pity – the greek word is splagchnizomai which is derived from spleen or bowel after the ancient belief that strong emotion came from the bowels… another translation is “have compassion for”…
i can see how pity could be a derivative of compassion… but i'm not sure if pity could stand alone… ?? could pity (or mercy) be experienced without compassionate feeling for the subject? (i mean mercy as an emotion not a duty)
what do you think?
cheers,
nate.
oh… perhaps i should clarify – i'm wondering whether one could show love without showing mercy… my current thought is that mercy (or pity) and grace are aspects of love…
Hi nate,
I see it as a king shows compassion to his subjects and a judge shows mercy to sinners. So they reflect the crossing of a divide between those who have authority and supply to give to those who lack both those things whether or not they deserve it.
The Canaanite woman who pleaded for healing in Matt15 was ignored and called a dog before compassion won out and Jesus gave to someone who was not entitled to receive.God loves the Son and parents love their children but they don't need to show pity or compassion for them as they are as one.
hey nick,
…an interesting perspective… i can see how it could be so in some cases – perhaps of god's compassion towards us (though i wonder if god really thinks that way?)… but what of one person to another?
personally i don't recognise “authorities” as having any moral or ethical (or divine) superiority or jurisdiction – though i'm sure this is a contentious view in christian circles – but regardless of this, i don't see jesus' compassion on the 5000 as a case of condescension across a value divide… jesus became the servant of all (as an example to us), which seems to indicate (to me at least) that his compassion was derived from “empathy” (power-with), rather than “jurisdiction” (power-over)…
does this make sense?
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
I guess you do mean you respect the authority of Jesus though. He knew who he was in God and he had authority over all creation including us. He did not need to feed them but he went the extra mile because he could and they needed it.They did not ask.That is what true christian love and compassion is.
Condescension is an unfortunate term as it implies contempt and supercilious superiority. Jesus was direct and truthful but never deliberately contemptuous. He mocked the Pharisees as it was their only hope-to make them angry so they would realise their need to repent.
Jesus was not servant to all but only to the Father. His Father's will was for him to preach and heal and set the captives free. I think he was surprised and challenged when the Canaanite woman asked, as he thought she was outside God's will for him to help.
I expect he checked it out with the Father in a quick prayer before he gave to her. Perhaps only then he realised the plan was wider than he had imagined and God was even going to call the gentiles in?hey nick,
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I guess you do mean you respect the authority of Jesus though. He knew who he was in God and he had authority over all creation including us. He did not need to feed them but he went the extra mile because he could and they needed it.They did not ask.That is what true christian love and compassion is.
i agree…Quote
Condescension is an unfortunate term as it implies contempt and supercilious superiority. Jesus was direct and truthful but never deliberately contemptuous.
i agree… but i think this is the attitude of most people in positions of authority, which is why i find it hard to apply to jesus (and ourselves), except in a chivalric idealism…Quote
He mocked the Pharisees as it was their only hope-to make them angry so they would realise their need to repent.
i somewhat agree… but i also think his statement “you don't enter in yourselves, and you stop others from entering in” answers somewhat for his treatment of them…Quote
Jesus was not servant to all but only to the Father. His Father's will was for him to preach and heal and set the captives free.
perhaps, but how did he serve the father?john 13 says, when he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place and asked them, do you understand what I have done for you? you call me teacher and Lord, and rightly so, for that is what i am. now that i, your lord and teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. i have set you an example that you should do as i have done for you…
so he became the servant of the world in order to show the world true greatness – as jesus says elsewhere – whoever exalts himself will be humbled, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted, and as christ was exalted above all others, he must have humbled himself below all others: which he did on the cross, an innocent man dying for the guilt of the world…
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I think he was surprised and challenged when the Canaanite woman asked, as he thought she was outside God's will for him to help.
I expect he checked it out with the Father in a quick prayer before he gave to her. Perhaps only then he realised the plan was wider than he had imagined and God was even going to call the gentiles in?
i guess i read this a bit differently – one of the purposes of the book of matthew seems to be to show the jewish nature of jesus, his messianic legitimacy… i think matt 15 is another example of this… however, i understand if you don't agree with this view…cheers,
nate.
sure nate,
But Jesus washed the feet of his disciples and not those of the world. And he showed them how he expected them to humble themselves and help each other…as part of love.yep… and he humbled himself to be crucified for all the sins of the world… and in being humbled below all others, he was exalted above all else… and he asks us to take up our cross and follow him…
Yes nate, He humbled himself and shared our humanity. But he was higher than all men even then though few realised it and gave him the respect he was due. Did he make himself less than all men by dying for theur sins?-dunno. And only those born into him enjoy the benefits of his death though all could .Then they take up their cross daily and follow him.
ok… so where are we so far?
god is love… and love is…
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4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails.
so, in a sense, this is god's attitude towards us… would you agree?
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