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Hi all
I have started this new topic to move away the ‘disproving one another’ method, as I see the the many varied views within each topic doesn’t seem to allow a reasonable conclusioin being found.
If we can all find the biblical points where we agree on, then we can move on to the ‘how’ and ‘why’ there are points where we each differ, with the emphasis on allowing the Word of God to speak the truth, rather than our own supposed truth.
I’m not too sure what the best way is to go about this, so I will just start by putting across the subject of ‘A description of what God is’ and then when we feel that an agreeable conclusion has been reached, I will then move on to ‘The first of all and the most important commandment of all’.
This will only be fruitful if we all remain humble and open to being reproved and corrected if needed.
Much thanks to all those who take part.
Does everyone agree that this is a simple biblical desription of God?
The only Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, Sprirt, that inhabits all of creation. Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Unchanging.
I would also like to point out an intersting fact that t8 reminded me of. God is greater than creation. I will allow t8 to expound on this fact if he wishes.
Thanks again to all those who participate.
As quoted in the trinity discussion, yes I agree with that description and as GJG pointed out, I did mention that God also exists outside creation too. He is bigger than creation and he could exist as thought or conciousness outside creation. Perhaps Spirit is the way he is manifested in creation.
Hi,
Theological derived terms are really not that helpful when describing the things of God. We are safe only if we use scripture to prove what able to be known.
Our natural thoughts can never encompass God any more than a newborn baby can draw conclusions about it's parents.For example
Omniscient
We only know at best what can be known. We can not know what we do not know. So how can we define what God knows?
Omnipotent.
We do not know how much power there is so how can we define the Power of God? The word infinite does not help either as we cannot grasp it's meaning either.
Omnipresent
We do not know the extent of created and uncreated being so how can we define God's abilities in this way either.These terms are all limited by our almost total ignorance so do they add anything by using them?
We can only know about God and His creation by what He has chosen to let us know in the Word so we need to use only those facts for the rest is vanity surely?
ps God's creation also reveals His nature and abilities. Jesus said to consider the lilies of the field,or sparrows, or the fig tree. He spoke of seeds and plants, trees, fish leaves and fruit. They are parables about God too.
hey guys,
yeh, i like to understand god in relation to his creation…
every plant and animal is different, even those of the same species have vast differences – looks, colouring, “fingerprint”…
i don't think that this is an accident… god could have made us so that each one was a clone of their parents, but he chose not to… this indicates to me that god appreciates the richness of individuality… (of course this is only one aspect of god)
what do you think?
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
Indeed nate. In fact there is another message in nature
Rom 1.19 “for that which is known about God is evident within them;for God made it evident to them. For since ths creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made , so that they are without excuse”
So God expects us to know about Him through nature… So that we will find the narrow road.hey nick,
one would suppose, then, that those who have never heard the gospel, would be judged according to whether they lived by the imprint of the gospel in their hearts and as they saw it in the world…
similarly, those who have heard and rejected “false” gospels (ie, when jesus is preached, but not the true jesus), would not be judged by their rejection of the gospel, but again, by their steadfastness to the gospel in evidence around them…
in this way, people could be following jesus (by following the narrow path), yet not realise that they are truly following him… would this be a reasonable assumption? (i have no doubt that it's not a popular one, hehe.)
cheers,
nate.
Well nate almost,
The gospel of Jesus was about being born again . You cannot be born again without being born again….
.. of water and the Spirit.No the way for those who do not hear the gospel in according to conscience and the Law. As Rom 2.14-16 tells us all whose behavior shows that their conscience is in accord with the Law will be saved by the Law as I read it.
but what of those who aren't under the law of moses?
do you think it impossible that a person could live according to the law of love (the law of christ) without actually hearing the gospel?
That is what the bible says nate and I won't argue.
The Law of love is the Law of the OT.
Jesus just summarised it into two laws.The new law he brought was different.
It was to “Love one another as I have loved you”
In other words be prepared to die for your brothers in the body of Christ…ah well… perhaps we're moving a bit off track…
i wonder if this really is the best way to seek truth… ??
i don't understand why we need to agree? what if we just said what we believe and why we believe it, and tried to glean truth from what each one thinks… ??
i really think that if we're honestly seeking truth we'll recognise it when it presents itself, if not, no amount of argument is going to make us believe…
any thoughts?
cheers,
nate.
Quote (Guest @ Nov. 26 2004,21:23) yeh, i like to understand god in relation to his creation… every plant and animal is different, even those of the same species have vast differences – looks, colouring, “fingerprint”…
True Nate.I think creation reflects what God is like. Colour, sunsets, water, trees, mountains, planets, suns, galaxies and animals all declare God's glory.
Even snow exemplifies God's personality quite well. Every snow particle is a unique 6 sided shape. No 2 are alike and the vast majority go unnoticed by us. Only a minute amount is ever viewed under a microscope to reveal this beautiful treasure.
Job 38:22
Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Quote (Guest @ Nov. 26 2004,22:32) but what of those who aren't under the law of moses? do you think it impossible that a person could live according to the law of love (the law of christ) without actually hearing the gospel?
Hi Nate,I tackled this one in the following writing:
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer11.htmIt covers the gospel, the law and conscience. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on any point.
Here is a quote from it:
Now we know from the scriptures that Jesus death paid the penalty for all people who have ever lived, to those that receive him. However those who are NOT saved are those who have rejected God in the following ways:
- those who understand the Gospel and reject it,
- those under the Law who reject it, (Note that those Jews who believe in Jesus do not reject the law, they fulfill the law),
- those who rebel against their conscience.
Those without knowledge of the Gospel and the Law are judged by their conscience. If they reject their conscience then they have rebelled against their creator who gave us all the knowledge of right and wrong.
Conscience = con science
con = with
science = knowledge.
So Conscience = With Knowledge
Conscience is actually the Law written in our hearts.Romans 2:15 (English-NIV) says
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.Please note that we are not justified by the Law or by Conscience, but through Jesus Christ alone. Only he can present us to the Father, holy and blameless. But to say that only those who have accepted the gospel are saved is also wrong. God saves many people out of mercy alone. The difference is that those who have accepted the true gospel are assured of their salvation. It is guaranteed.
Ephesians 1:13 (English-NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession, to the praise of his glory.No where in the Bible does it say those who have never heard the Gospel are damned. Or those who are without Law are damned. Abraham never heard the Gospel, yet he had faith. Aborted children haven't heard the gospel, yet does God condemn them? Remember that God is merciful and he chooses whom he will save.
Hi t8 and nate,
The wedding feast is thought to start the millenium as it seems unlikely those invited to the feast would not continue to enjoy God's favour.
In Luke 14 many of those invited made excuses and refused to come . So the Master [The Father]said
” Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor and the crippled, the blind and the lame ” and then ” Go out into the highways and along the hedgerows and force them to come in. I want my house to be full”
These people appear to be given salvation without appearing to have any knowledge of the gospel or any commitment or ever doing anything to help the kingdom. They will include drug abusers and thieves and the so called riff raff of society. They get a free ride because God said so. And they will partake in all the blessings simply because they were disadvantaged.
And because insufficient people believed and obeyed the gospel.
Praise God.Hi t8,
I agree. The context of the Romans 2 quote is[ in NASB]
v 12f
” Sinners who do not have the law will perish without reference to it.
Sinners bound by the law will be judged according with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God ;It is those who keep it who will be declared just.
When gentiles who do not have the law keep it as by instinct ,these men, although without the law serve as a law for themselves. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness together with that law, and their thoughts will accuse or defend them on the day when , in accordance with the gospel I preach, God will pass judgement on the secrets of men through Christ Jesus”So what I take from that is
1.All under the law[the jews] can be saved according to the law-though elsewhere it tells us the observance must be perfect. They are the chosen people, those who can “inherit” the kingdom by works as with the older son in the parable of the Prodigal son.
2. All outside of the law and the kingdom of Jesus can be saved too if their conscience is in line with the law and they show that by behaving as if they were obeying the law of love for God first, and and then our fellow man.
3.The gospel of Jesus surpasses the old law and does not apply to us, as we who are baptised into Him enjoy the benefits of his perfect fulfillment of that law. We still obey the law of love as we are led by the Spirit to do so. We are not Jews so we cannot hope to be saved by our works and they can only earn rewards in our judgement. We are doubly blessed and least deserving as the Jews will testify.
So, as you say, we are not saved by the law or conscience but faith in Jesus. We have the guarantee and we need to be able to know the work of the Spirit in us to say that.
4. God's inexplicable mercy saves many others.It's amazing that the commandments of God are written in our hearts. Just shows that the same God who gave Moses the commandments is the same God who created us.
I also think this is why people are condemned if they reject the true gospel. The God who sent Jesus to defeat evil and redeem us back to himself also gave us a conscience. Our conscience confirms the true gospel and if rejected it only shows that we have also rejected our conscience.
Some have seared their conscience through excessive sin and rebellion to their own destruction. God is love and what happens if we reject the source of all true love?
hey guys,
i agree with nick that our “quantifyable” terms could be perhaps a bit presumptuous… however, i like the direction this discussion has turned – god is love… so, i thought i'd just throw some more verses (and my thoughts) into the mix…
Quote
1 john 4:7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
…god's motive for our salvation was love… and in order to know god, we need to know and show love…Quote
1 cor 8:1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.
…only through love, can we come to understand the great wisdom of god, which is foolishness to man's understanding, because it doesn't hinge on knowledge…Quote
eph 3:16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge–that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
…the love of christ surpasses knowledge… (as paul says elsewhere, we can have all knowledge, but if we don't have love, we are nothing – because god is love)… the true path is only comprehensible to those that love…Quote
col 2:2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
…again, the wisdom and knowledge of god, understood through love… but given broader perspective when used as a unifying factor among the brethren…these are just my immediate thoughts, hopefully to promote more discussion in this area…
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
ok but what is love. You seem to suggest our natural human love and affections are what is useful to God. But two of your quotes [1jn and eph] tell us that it is the love that is gifted to us after salvation by the Spirit that is what matters. Love is a gift of the Spirit to be sought by believers.What can we bring to God? What have we to offer Him? Will God be impressed by our love unless we prove it by responding to the message? In what way does human affection compare with the sacrifice of your beloved Son?
Surely God wants repentance and obedience as signs of our faith and love before He can make anything useful from us. This is the will of God for us and outside of His will our own efforts are futile and useless.
We do not want to hear at the judgement
“I do not know you”
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