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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 10 2006,07:25) God, who is the Father, is the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 48:16-17
16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. [The first and the last, vs 12]. 17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. (cf. Zech 2:8)In this passage the Holy One of Israel was “sent”. Was the Father ever sent anywhere?
Hi Is 1.18,
Are you surprised to find prophetic word about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament?
The Father does not send Himself.
God does not send Himself.
God sends His Son and fills him with His Spirit.
The next chapter of Isaiah enlarges on the suffering servant who is prophesied to be sent with a message of salvation from God, the Father.
Verse 21 speaks too of Jesus as the rock from which gushes the water of life unto salvation[1Cor 10.4].
This promise comes from YHWH, the Holy One of Israel[v17]as you would expect.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 10 2006,07:25) Hi,
God, who is the Father, is the Holy One of Israel.
[Ps 71.22,Pr 9.10,30.3,Is1.4,5.19,5.24,10.20,12.6,17.7,29.19,30.15,31.1,37.23,40.25,54.5,Jer 51.5,Ezek39.7Hos 11.12,Hab 1.12]etc
Is 40,25
“'To whom would you liken Me that I would be his equal?'says the Holy One”But Jesus is called “Thy Holy One” in Ps 16.10.
Joseph is said to be the equal of Pharaoh in Gen 44.18
Was he born equal?
No the equality was given him by Pharaoh, who was greater in authority still.Jesus has been given full authority by the Father. That equality in authority is not inherent but given to Him by the greater being, his God.
Is 46.5
“To whom would you liken Me and make Me equal and compare Me, that we would be alike?”
In the same vein of thought
YHWH clearly commands that we should make not graven image or likeness of him and worship it.
Yet it is said of Jesus that he is the image of the invisible God, and God allows worship of him to the glory of God the Father.
So we are not to make an image, but God does.
We are not to worship our own images but God allows worship of the image He made…Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 10 2006,08:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 10 2006,07:25) God, who is the Father, is the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 48:16-17
16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. [The first and the last, vs 12]. 17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. (cf. Zech 2:8)In this passage the Holy One of Israel was “sent”. Was the Father ever sent anywhere?
Hi Is 1.18,
Can you not see looking at this quote you have provided that the words the Father speaks follow;“Thus saith the Lord”
and do not precede it?He says
“I am the Lord God which teacheth thee to profit..”The Father again is delineated from His Son.
The Father is the Lord God.ps and the other scripture you quoted;
Zech 2.3f
“And behold the angel who was speaking with me was going out………
For thus says the Lord of Hosts
'After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For behold I will wave my hand over them, so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know the Lord of Hosts has sent me'”Who is the apple of God's eye? Israel.
Who sends the avenger? God
Who is the avenger? The God through the angel of the Lord [note the translator used 'my' not 'My' indicating it was thought to be neither God nor His Son.]Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2006,07:01) Hi Is 1.18
” 1Jn 1.1f
'What was from the beginning,
what we have seen with our eyes,
what we have looked at
and touched with our hands,
concerning the Word of Life-
and the life was manifested
and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you
the eternal life
which was with the Father
and was manifested to us-
what we have seen and and heard and proclaim to you also,
so that you too may have fellowship with us;
and indeed our fellowship is with the Father,
and with His son Jesus Christ”Who is the Word of life?
John saw him
and heard him
and touched him with his hands.He was with the Father who has a real Son.
Hi Is 1.18,
Perhaps you could answer this one in the LOGOS forum?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 10 2006,23:40) Perhaps you could answer this one in the LOGOS forum?
I believe have already answered it. Hey NH would it be okay if we alternated replies? Evidently I don't have as much time to post here as some others do and if I get inundated with several posts in response to my one I cannot possibly answer them all, not properly anyway. I already have a backlog accumulating. Cheers.I will try and address the recent ones in this thread, and then reply to Malcolm's and Sammo's posts in the weekend.
Only have a few minute before I have to dash off to work, but just quickly:
Zechariah 2
8For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me [YHWH] unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. 9For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.“For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent ME [YHWH] unto the nations”
This is an uncomplicated verse – The YHWH of Hosts declared ” the glory hath he sent ME unto the nations”
Isaiah 48:12-17
12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. 13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. 14All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. 15I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me [The first and the last, vs 12].17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.The speaker of all the utterances in this passage is identified in vs 12, the “First and the Last”. He is the speaker that declared “and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me” and “I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go”. There is absolutely no grammatical justification to surmise that two speakers are quoted. One speaker – YHWH, The First and Last.
Quote There is absolutely no grammatical justification to surmise that two speakers are quoted. One speaker – YHWH, The First and Last. When a prophet spoke in the name of the Lord – who was speaking? God or the man?
GOD! The man was little more than a microphone for the voice of God.
When those prophets spoke they did not speak from their own understanding, God hardwired their mouths so that the words never even passed through their brains…
This was called in the unbroken scriptures : gods.In what way did Jesus differ? By his own testimony he declared that he only spoke the words God gave him and did what God showed him to do.
The result: the son of god.This same spirit of obedience and harmony and this same attitude of a faithful son to a loving father did not begin on earth but long before it. Such was the harmony and compatiblity of the Father and the Son that God made all things by him, as Collosians 1 tells us.
Such is the unchanging harmony of these two that God is also pleased to gather all things together in him, to restore all things by him.
Such is the oneness of the Father and the son, complete unity, not of persons, but of will and purpose. A perfect unity that we are enjoined to attain to by the obedience of faith to His Word of Truth.(feeling in a poetic mood today
)Hi Is 1.18
Rewind that one.
“For thus says the Lord of hosts
'After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you…”So your read on this is that the Father God sends Himself !!
If God said He was sending himself do you think he would say“He has sent Me”?
Would He not say
“I am sending Myself”
The Father is the sender but He is servant to nobody, not even Himself. Nobody sends God anywhere.
The speaker quotes God, the Lord of Hosts who is the Father, but the Father is not speaking about sending Himself. That makes no sense at all. The speaker is proving his mission by quoting the words of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 11 2006,04:14) So your read on this is that the Father God sends Himself !!
If God said He was sending himself do you think he would say
Hmmm. ….did I say that? Its actually not unusual for more than one personage to be identified as YHWH in OT scripture:Genesis 19:24
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;Two person's named YHWHs are in view here; One YHWH in heaven and One on earth (refer Genesis Ch 18).
Hosea 1
7But I [YHWH] will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD [YHWH] their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.Here YHWH is speaking (as the preceding verses bear out) but suddenly appears to refer to Himself in the third person, saying YHWH will deliver them as if YHWH was not the One speaking.
This one is interesting too:
Hosea 5
15I will go and return to my place, till they [Israel] acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.The preceding verses make it plain that it is YHWH who is speaking and yet He talks of returning to His place. Nowhere in Scripture does it indicate that the Father will leave or return to His Heavenly dwelling. But Yahshua certainly returned to His place, as NT scripture affirms in many instances.
Isaiah 26:21 states that YHWH will come out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the Earth:
Isaiah 26
21For, behold, the LORD [YHWH] cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.Nowhere in NT Scripture are we told that The Father will come “out of His place” and act as the avenger. We are promised Yahshua will return and that he will Rev 19:11-16 and Zechariah 14:1-4 unambiguously identify the punisher as Jesus Christ.
Revelation 6:16
“6and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;In John 12:41 John uses a narrative in Isaiah 6, in which Isaiah sees YHWH’s glory, to make a point about men’s unbelief of Jesus:
John 12
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Christ’s] glory, and spake of him [Christ].This was the section of Isaiah 6 that John quoted:
Isaiah 6
1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD [YHWH] sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.The context of John 12:41:
“These things Isaiah said because he saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ).”The “Him” in John 12:41 can only be The Logos, here is the sequence that bears this out:
- when Jesus was glorified v16, the Son of Man to be glorified v23
- Father, glorify Your name (v28)
- they were not believing in Christ (v37)
- Lord, who has believed our report (v38)
- to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed (v38)
- these things Isaiah said because he saw His (The pre-incarnate Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ) (v41)
- many even of the rulers believed in Him (v42)
- Jesus cried out and said, He who believes in Me (v44)
- He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me (v45)
The context of John 12 makes it clear that in John's inspired opinion Isaiah saw the glory of the Logos Himself, as described in Isaiah 6. It is obvious to me that John considered Jesus to be YHWH. I see no other plausible explanation.
I accidentally hit the 'add reply' button before I had finished with this post. Please disregard the previous post
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 11 2006,04:14) So your read on this is that the Father God sends Himself !!
If God said He was sending himself do you think he would say
Hmmm. ….did I say that? Its actually not unusual for more than one personage to be identified as YHWH in OT scripture:Genesis 19:24
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;Two person's named YHWHs are in view here; One YHWH in heaven and One on earth (refer Genesis Ch 18).
Hosea 1
7But I [YHWH] will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD [YHWH] their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.Here YHWH is speaking (as the preceding verses bear out) but suddenly appears to refer to Himself in the third person, saying YHWH will deliver them as if YHWH was not the One speaking.
This one is interesting too:
Hosea 5
15I will go and return to my place, till they [Israel] acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.The preceding verses make it plain that it is YHWH who is speaking and yet He talks of returning to His place. Nowhere in Scripture does it indicate that the Father will leave or return to His Heavenly dwelling. But Yahshua certainly returned to His place, as NT scripture affirms in many instances.
Isaiah 26:21 states that YHWH will come out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the Earth:
Isaiah 26
21For, behold, the LORD [YHWH] cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.Nowhere in NT Scripture are we told that The Father will come “out of His place” and act as the avenger. We are promised Yahshua will return and that He will come to as a punisher (Rev 19:11-16, Zechariah 14:1-4):
Revelation 6:16
“6and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;In John 12:41 John uses a narrative in Isaiah 6, in which Isaiah sees YHWH’s glory, to make a point about men’s unbelief of Jesus:
John 12
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Christ’s] glory, and spake of him [Christ].This was the section of Isaiah 6 that John quoted:
Isaiah 6
1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD [YHWH] sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.The context of John 12:41:
“These things Isaiah said because he saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ).”The “Him” in John 12:41 can only be The Logos, here is the sequence that bears this out:- when Jesus was glorified v16, the Son of Man to be glorified v23
- Father, glorify Your name (v28)
- they were not believing in Christ (v37)
- Lord, who has believed our report (v38)
- to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed (v38)
- these things Isaiah said because he saw His (The pre-incarnate Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ) (v41)
- many even of the rulers believed in Him (v42)
- Jesus cried out and said, He who believes in Me (v44)
- He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me (v45)
The context of John 12 makes it clear that in John's inspired opinion Isaiah saw the glory of the Logos Himself, as described in Isaiah 6. It is obvious to me that John considered Jesus to be YHWH. I see no other plausible explanation.
Hi Is 1.18
Gen 19.24
“Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone
and fire from the Lord
out of heaven”
So God caused it to rain fire and brimstone from heaven on S+G.Hosea 1.7
” But I will have compassion on the house of Judah
and deliver them by the Lord their God,
and will not deliver them by bow, sword, battle, horses and horsemen”So the contrast intended is the means of salvation used by God-His power.
“Not by might nor by power but by My Spirit” Zech 4.6
“A horse is a false hope for victory” Ps 33Hosea 5.15
“I will go away and return to My place until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face; in their affliction they will earnestly seek Me”Ezek Ch 1-10 certainly details God removing His manifestation from among men.
Is 26.21
“For behold the Lord is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
1Kings 21.21
“Behold I will bring evil upon you..”
Jer 4.6
“I am bringing evil from the north..”Job 1-2 shows God in charge of misfortunes, accidents and disasters befalling men on earth and Revelation clearly shows his wrath wreaking revenge on earth and it's inhabitants
Do you think Is 26 means God will leave heaven and take revenge personally? Why should He? He can send legions of angels to do His work but His Spirit can undertake His will directly if He wishes.
Rev 6.16
” and they said to the mountains and the rocks
'Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand'”God is as always on His heavenly Throne. At this time Jesus Christ is about to return as a warrior King, and as always since the Jordan, utterly filled with the full terrible power of the Spirit of God. They are as one. It is remarkably insightfiul of those in the caves to seem to understand these matters.
John 12.41
“These things Isaiah said because he saw His Glory, and he spoke of Him”Indeed Isaiah saw a manifestation of the glory of God in Isaiah 6.1-10 and the preceding quoted words of God of Jn 12.40 were given to him at that very same time. He saw the glory of God and heard these words from God then. It is clearly the Father's glory he saw proven by comparing with Rev 4 where a similar sight is visualised by John.
So Jn 12.41 “He saw His glory” applies to the glory of God seen when God spoke to him.
But the words of John 12.40 speak of Christ's frustrating mission to the Jews so indeed
“he spoke of him”[Yeshua]So to paraphrase “these things Isaiah said because when he saw the glory of God, God was speaking to him of Christ”.
Hi Is 1.18,
Your points are based upon false reading of the quoted verses in my view. I have read your post and have put an alternative view of the verses so that now it would be good to hear from you on them again too.Once we have agreed on what the scriptures mean then we can build our knowledge together in a useful manner.
Hi NH, hope you’re having a good week.
Quote Your points are based upon false reading of the quoted verses in my view.
I believe I’ve just let the scripture speak for itself. I haven’t imposing any preconceived notions on the text, or allegorised any verses. If you think I’ve twisted a verse, show me where and how.Quote I have read your post and have put an alternative view of the verses
“Alternative view”? Hmmm….alternative to what? The correct interpretation or 'your' interpretation?Quote so that now it would be good to hear from you on them again too.
Okay, fair call. I will do that.Quote me:
Its actually not unusual for more than one personage to be identified as YHWH in OT scripture:Genesis 19:24
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;Two person's named YHWHs are in view here; One YHWH in heaven and One on earth (refer Genesis Ch 18).
Quote you:
So God caused it to rain fire and brimstone from heaven on S+G.My reply
My point was that there are TWO distinct persons identified as YHWH in this verse, one in Heaven sending “fire and brimstone” and One on Earth. We know that YHWH visited Earth and in fact appeared to Abraham in human likeness from Ch 18. There is no evidence that He left Earth in the interval between the visitation and demolition of S & G.Here is another verse of similar theme and construction:
Amos 4:11
I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.A reference by YHWH to the S & G and co-incidentally (or not!) it’s another instance where YHWH is speaking (as the preceding verses bear out) but suddenly appears to refer to Himself in the third person.
Quote me:
Hosea 1
7But I [YHWH] will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD [YHWH] their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.Here YHWH is speaking (as the preceding verses bear out) but suddenly appears to refer to Himself in the third person, saying YHWH will deliver them as if YHWH was not the One speaking.
Quote you:
So the contrast intended is the means of salvation used by God-His power.
“Not by might nor by power but by My Spirit” Zech 4.6
“A horse is a false hope for victory” Ps 33My reply
I’m not sure how what you have written relates to my point about YHWH using a 3rd person reference to Himself. It’s such an unusual construction. Why would He not say “by Myself”. These are difficult passages to reconcile with monarchial monotheism.Quote me:
Hosea 5
15I will go and return to my place, till they [Israel] acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.The preceding verses make it plain that it is YHWH who is speaking and yet He talks of returning to His place. Nowhere in Scripture does it indicate that the Father will leave or return to His Heavenly dwelling. But Yahshua certainly returned to His place, as NT scripture affirms in many instances.
Quote you:
Ezek Ch 1-10 certainly details God removing His manifestation from among men.My reply:
I don’t find this a convincing explanation. It doesn’t address why YHWH would promise to return to His place. There is no mention of a manifestation of any kind. The language is plain conference is unambiguous. Only Yahshua, Mighty God, fits the bill here. Israel’s destiny hinges on their acceptance of their Messiah (Acts 3:23).Quote me:
Isaiah 26:21 states that YHWH will come out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the Earth:Isaiah 26
21For, behold, the LORD [YHWH] cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.Nowhere in NT Scripture are we told that The Father will come “out of His place” and act as the avenger. We are promised Yahshua will return and that He will come to as a punisher (Rev 19:11-16, Zechariah 14:1-4):
Quote you:
1Kings 21.21
“Behold I will bring evil upon you..”
Jer 4.6
“I am bringing evil from the north..”Job 1-2 shows God in charge of misfortunes, accidents and disasters befalling men on earth and Revelation clearly shows his wrath wreaking revenge on earth and it's inhabitants.
My reply:
You simply haven’t addressed my point here.Quote you:
Do you think Is 26 means God will leave heaven and take revenge personally?My reply:
No I don’t think that ‘God’ (I take it you mean the Father) will come a punisher. Nor did I write anything that would imply this. Isaiah 26:21 indisputably records that YHWH would “come out of His place”. This can only be a reference to Yahshua as, I think, was clearly demonstrated by the verses I cited.Quote you
Why should He? He can send legions of angels to do His work but His Spirit can undertake His will directly if He wishes.My reply:
I agree that God could do that. But that’s not the point. Shouldn’t we be discussing what scripture explicitly records, rather than surmising about God’s perogative.
Quote me:
Revelation 6:16
“6and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;Quote you
God is as always on His heavenly Throne. At this time Jesus Christ is about to return as a warrior King, and as always since the Jordan, utterly filled with the full terrible power of the Spirit of God. They are as one. It is remarkably insightfiul of those in the caves to seem to understand these matters.My reply:
I quoted this verse because it shows that the “Wrath” is the Lamb’s. He alone will come as punisher. It adds weight to the literal interpretation of Isa 26:21. This verse could only be a reference to Yahshua.Quote me:
In John 12:41 John uses a narrative in Isaiah 6, in which Isaiah sees YHWH’s glory, to make a point about men’s unbelief of Jesus:John 12
37But though he [Yahshua] had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Christ’s] glory, and spake of him [Christ].This was the section of Isaiah 6 that John quoted:
Isaiah 6:9-10
9And he [YHWH, vs 1] said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they
see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.The context of John 12 makes it clear that in John's inspired opinion Isaiah saw the glory of the Logos Himself, as described in Isaiah 6. It is obvious to me that John considered Jesus to be YHWH. I see no other plausible explanation.
Quote you:
Indeed Isaiah saw a manifestation of the glory of God in Isaiah 6.1-10 and the preceding quoted words of God of Jn 12.40 were given to him at that very same time. He saw the glory of God and heard these words from God then. It is clearly the Father's glory he saw proven by comparing with Rev 4 where a similar sight is visualised by John.So Jn 12.41 “He saw His glory” applies to the glory of God seen when God spoke to him.
But the words of John 12.40 speak of Christ's frustrating mission to the Jews so indeed
“he spoke of him”[Yeshua]So to paraphrase “these things Isaiah said because when he saw the glory of God, God was speaking to him of Christ.
My reply:
John 12:40-41
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw HIS [Christ’s] glory, and spake of HIM [Christ].Read in context the pronouns “his” and “him” used by John could ONLY refer to Yahshua because He is identified as the subject in verse 37. All proceeding verses therefore relate to Him. There is no mention of the Father in the passage. John took a passage from the OT which speaks of YHWH and applied it DIRECTLY to Yahshua.
Unfortunately that’s going to be difficult, as you have already declared that you have “unchanging views” on these matters.
Quote Co equal thread, Pg 9, 3rd post.
It is pointless to argue as you have already established you and I have unchanged views on all these matters, which we have previously discussed in detail, and we are warned not to quarrel.
For the record, I don’t have fixed views on this matter, or any other biblical matter, and am open to correction, but only if I’m given irrefutable evidence that my interpretation is wrong and another’s is right.Sorry if this post was a little direct, it’s been a long day, I’m tired and conscious of catching up on my replies.
God Bless
Hi, Is 1.18,
My alternative view I do not claim to be correct. I want to learn more so it becomes correct. If you have wisdom on these matters I want to learn from you as the search for truth is the aim. So sarcasm is not appropriate.God is never on earth except as His Spirit. Earth cannot contain Him, even the highest heaven cannot do so [1Kin 8.27, 2Chr 2.6,2 Chr 6.18].
Two YHWHs??
Even if you are a trintarian believer you teach that there is only One God [YHWH]!!
Amos 4.11
” I overthrew you; as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. And you were like a brand snatched from a blaze;Yet you have not returned to Me ' declares the Lord”.”Who overthew Sodom and Gomorrah?
The One God did.
He, rather uniquely, did not use men or angels but did it Himself as shown in the Gen 19.24 verse.Hosea 5.15 can mean God withdrawing His Presence as Spirit among them.
He dwelled with the Israelites [Ex 25.8,29.45, Num 5.3, 35.34, 1Kin 6.13,]Who will say God was no longer in heaven but God, who cannot be contained in the highest heaven is contained in a place on earth???!!
Is 26.21 again does not speak of God leaving His home of heaven. All His work is done outside of heaven directly or indirectly by His Spirit.
Scripture say in 2Cor 5
“God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
yet Jesus told us, at the same time, to pray to our Father IN HEAVEN.
He was filled with the Spirit of God and worked by the “Finger of God”, the Spirit.You SURMISE it is Yeshua? Do you alone have that right?
Again in Jn 12 you SURMISE it is Christ seen in Is 6. I am happy with my explanation here and you have not added anything new.
I can only say you see Yeshua in scripture when his name is not written only because you need to try and justify a view where one God has three personalities in His being and has never truly been a father or had a son.
I prefer to believe with Peter and the rest of scripture that God had a son and his name is Jesus.
Is 1:18,
Please don't use your ignorance of Hebrew literary devices as a prooftext for your “multiple YHWHs” theory. YHWH is one in number, as proclaimed in Deuteronmy 6:4.
1 Kings 8:1 says
Quote Now Solomon assembled the elders of Israel and all the heads of the tribes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel, to King Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of [YHWH] from the City of David, which is Zion. By your understanding of scripture, we would have to conclude that there are two King Solomons in this passage – one assembling the people to the other. Would we not? Instead, by overwhelming use of singular pronouns in reference to Solomon, it is clear that he is one person. The same is true for YHWH.
I forgot to paste the quote from you that I was replying to in a later part of my post NH. Sorry if it made it confusing to read. Here is the section with the quote (at top).
Quote Once we have agreed on what the scriptures mean then we can build our knowledge together in a useful manner. Read in context the pronouns “his” and “him” used by John could ONLY refer to Yahshua because He is identified as the subject in verse 37. All proceeding verses therefore relate to Him. There is no mention of the Father in the passage. John took a passage from the OT which speaks of YHWH and applied it DIRECTLY to Yahshua.
Unfortunately that’s going to be difficult, as you have already declared that you have “unchanging views” on these matters.
Quote Quote NH
Co equal thread, Pg 9, 3rd post.
It is pointless to argue as you have already established you and I have unchanged views on all these matters, which we have previously discussed in detail, and we are warned not to quarrel.For the record, I don’t have fixed views on this matter, or any other biblical matter, and am open to correction, but only if I’m given irrefutable evidence that my interpretation is wrong and another’s is right.
Whatistrue,
Thanks for your friendly post. My point was that these passages are hard to reconcile with the monarchial monotheism position. And they are. The grammer is highly unusual. Since you're an expert maybe you can offer a plausible explanation for all the texts I cited (no links please!), and we'll examine them all. By the way i'm not proposing a “multiple YHWH” theory, there is echad YHWH. But this name is unambiguously given to both The Father and Yahshua in scripture. Happy to go through some verses that bear this with you too.
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