Co equal

Participant

Quote (Sammo @ May 08 2006,05:00)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2006,04:02)

Hi Sammo,
Not if the glorious golden vessel emptied himself.

Below is what my Online Bible has about the word “humbled” in Phil 2:8. Are you sure that this verse is saying that a pre-existent Jesus “emptied” himself of his power, knowledge and character? None of the definitions below say anything at all like that. It sounds to me simply like Jesus humbled himself by acting like a servant.

5013 tapeinow tapeinoo tap-i-no’-o

from 5011; TDNT-8:1,1152; v

AV-humble 6, abase 5, humble (one’s) self 2, bring low 1; 14

1) to make low, bring low
1a) to level, reduce to a plain
1b) metaph. to bring into a humble condition, reduce to meaner circumstances
1b1) to assign a lower rank or place to
1b2) to abase
1b3) to be ranked below others who are honoured or rewarded
1b4) to humble or abase myself by humble living
1c) to lower, depress
1c1) of one’s soul bring down one’s pride
1c2) to have a modest opinion of one’s self
1c3) to behave in an unassuming manner
1c4) devoid of all haughtiness

Hi sammo,
Thank you Is 1.18. Sammo, why would you show me the derivation of “humbled” when you were discussing the word “emptied”??

2758 “emptied “kenoo”
emptied[1]
made empty[1]
made void[2]
make empty[1]

From 2756 “kenos” a prim word “to empty”

So confusion here. It speaks clearly of a vessel that contained something [ ?glory, knowledge and power]and those contents are taken out by himself while he was a cogniscent being and before partaking of flesh..

May 8, 2006 at 7:48 pm#25987

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
Ps 2.7
“I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord. He said to me
'You are My Son. Today I have begotten you”

This was written hundreds of years before the conception of Christ.
Some might say “so what? It is prophetic”

But consider these points.
It is a decree of God, a statement with divine authority, related by the Son of God.
God states that Jesus is His Son and so it is not a title but a fact.
It tells of the Son relating what his new Father had said to him.
It speaks of a Son who knew who his Father was.
It speaks of an event that occurred today.
What natural son hears and understands and remembers the words of his father on the day of his birth?
And it tells of a begettal that involves no other instrument, divine or human.
God says “I have begotten you”. Perhaps it speaks of an excited God proud of His new Son.

The sending of the Son into the world and his partaking of our real flesh is almost inconsequential by comparison with his origins from God Himself as an image. Men glorify the human aspect, men who are but grass and of dust.

May 8, 2006 at 10:14 pm#25988

Sammo

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2006,20:09)

Thank you Is 1.18. Sammo, why would you show me the derivation of “humbled” when you were discussing the word “emptied”??

Sorry – yeah, it's quite different in the AV, and sounded more like verse 8. You can understand why I was surprised!

May 8, 2006 at 11:00 pm#25989

Sammo

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2006,05:29)

Quote (Sammo @ May 08 2006,04:45)

Hi Isa 1:18

Well, I don't think Jesus is the “word”; I believe Jesus is the “word made flesh”, which is quite different.

Sammo,
Was that post for me? I didn't write the word “word” in my post to you. Although He is given this designation several times in the NT (Joh 1:1 & 14, 1 Joh 1:1, Rev 19:13).

What do you percieve “Logos” to mean? It's my understanding that it was borrowed by John from Greek philosophy, but that he greatly modified its connotation. In Greek thinking the logos made sense of the order they saw in the universe, but John’s application, although it still retained some of the Greek’s inherent meaning, appears very much more personal in nature.

Malcolm,
OK thanks, look forward to reading it.

Hi Is 1:18

Yeah, it sounded like you were quoting John 1 – which you were weren't you?

I think logos just means 'word', although absolutely, when God speaks his word involves a plan. So when John says “in the beginning was the word”, we could do well to read through Genesis 1 and see how many times we read about God speaking to carry out his plan. Also Psa 33:6 etc.

Simply put, God expressed his mind through his word (logos). Jesus was such a perfect reflection of the mind of God that he truly was “the word made flesh”. But what I was trying to pouint out before is that people often read John 1 as if it's saying that “the word” = Jesus… when really it's saying that “the word made flesh” = Jesus, which is an important distinction, I think. John 1:1 doesn't say that Jesus was there in Genesis 1 – Jesus wasn't on the scene until John 1:14, which happened in 4BC.

I'm certain that the use of pronouns in most translations shades most people's interpreations of this passage – most Bibles talk about the logos as a “him” in John 1:1-4, but there's no reason why it shouldn't be an “it”. (And in fact, almost all English Bibles before the KJV did translate the logos as an “it”.) That significantly changes the way the passage reads.

But again, lets not lose sight of the forest here – no Jews, to whom the gospel was first preached, believed in either the trinity or pre-existence. Pre-existence (let alone the trinity) definitely isn't mentioned in the accounts of Jesus's birth in Matthew, Mark and Luke, and isn't discussed in any of the speeches in Acts either. Given that the original audience of the gospel was Jewish (and even if it hadn't been!), don't you think that those points might have deserved a bit of an explanation?

God be with you

ps – there are some articles on this subject here

May 8, 2006 at 11:03 pm#25990

Sammo

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2006,19:51)

Quote (Sammo @ May 08 2006,04:45)

Hi Isa 1:18

Well, I don't think Jesus is the “word”; I believe Jesus is the “word made flesh”, which is quite different.

Hi sammo,
So is it the flesh that makes us who we are and is our person?
Why does scrpture say that Jesus Christ “came in the flesh”?

Does that not suggest, like Paul in 2 Cor 5, that the flesh is just a tent that you and I live in?

And does it not mean that the Word was a being who partook [Phil 2.5f]of flesh?

Do you believe in immortal souls Nick? (I don't)

May 8, 2006 at 11:20 pm#25991

Participant

Hi Sammo,
John said of the Word, that “he was in the beginning with God”
and he
“became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth”
and
'the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father. He has explained Him”

Jesus still has glory of his own, less than he had with God as he asks the Father later in John if that glory could be restored to him. He was with the Father before time and is in the bosom of God, only now being revealed on earth to men.
1Jn 4.8
” The Son of God appeared for this purpose…”, not was created by the help of the flesh of man.

May 9, 2006 at 4:34 am#25993

Participant

Is 1:8

Stay tuned my friend – I will have a good read and get back to you

May 9, 2006 at 6:01 am#25994

Participant

Hi Is 1.18
” 1Jn 1.1f
'What was from the beginning,
what we have seen with our eyes,
what we have looked at
and touched with our hands,
concerning the Word of Life-
and the life was manifested
and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you
the eternal life
which was with the Father
and was manifested to us-
what we have seen and and heard and proclaim to you also,
so that you too may have fellowship with us;
and indeed our fellowship is with the Father,
and with His son Jesus Christ”

Who is the Word of life?

John saw him
and heard him
and touched him with his hands.

He was with the Father who has a real Son.

May 9, 2006 at 7:59 am#25995

Participant

Hi NH,

Quote

Who is the Word of life?

John saw him
and heard him
and touched him with his hands.

I don't have a problem with Yahshua being called the “Logos of life”, John 1:14 records that The Logos “became flesh”, in Revelation He's called “The Logos of God”.

Quote

He was with the Father who has a real Son.

The Father has a real Son? Yes, I agree. The NT writers understood that He became a Son at a point after He emptied Himself and was made flesh (Luke 1:35, Acts 13:33, Rom 1:4). I think Hebrews 1:5 also conclusively shows that there was a point when the Logos existed, but was not yet a Son:

HEBREWS 1:5
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

Do you accept that the Ps 2:7 was, at some point, spoken by the Father to the Son? The Psalm would appear to bear his out:

Psalm 2:7
He said to me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten you'

The 2 Sam 7:14 quote must also have been since the writer of Hebrews wrote “and again”, denoting that it was another declaration. So, the common sense reading of this verse indicates that both Ps 2:7 and 2 Sam 7:14 were expressions uttered to the Son by The Father. The Sam 7:14 quote is future tense, The Father declared to the Logos that He will be a Father to Him, and the Logos shall be a Son to Him. So, logically, The Logos could not have been a Son at the time this was spoken to Him.

May 9, 2006 at 8:04 am#25996

Participant

Quote (Sammo @ May 09 2006,00:00)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2006,05:29)

Quote (Sammo @ May 08 2006,04:45)

Hi Isa 1:18

Well, I don't think Jesus is the “word”; I believe Jesus is the “word made flesh”, which is quite different.

Sammo,
Was that post for me? I didn't write the word “word” in my post to you. Although He is given this designation several times in the NT (Joh 1:1 & 14, 1 Joh 1:1, Rev 19:13).

Malcolm,
OK thanks, look forward to reading it.

Hi Is 1:18

Yeah, it sounded like you were quoting John 1 – which you were weren't you?

God be with you

ps – there are some articles on this subject here

Thanks for your post Sammo.
Unfortunately I won't have time to reply till the end of the week.

God Bless

May 9, 2006 at 9:04 am#25997

Participant

Quote

It appears to me that since you have no scripture to support your assertion that The Father beget a Son ‘before time’

Before time? Not really he, this son would not exist before time but rather at the very moment of the beginning (is this technically time? Or not?) Making him the Alpha – the Beginning, the First.

Quote

you rely on the fall back position that ‘all sons have a beginning’. However, the problem here for me is that you are using a physical paradigm to draw a metaphysical conclusion.

God in dealing with His creation must of necessity condescend (Is 58:8-9)
God as we understand is without beginning or end. He is not a Word that derived from a thought. (As I understand it the word Logos means the word both spoken and containing the thought.)
He is not a thought or its result, He is the thinker of His thoughts, which are higher than us.

ISAIAH 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

This is entirely consistent with Jn 17:3 Knowledge of the only true God and His anointed.

So when did this one, His anointed come into being?

ISAIAH 48:12-13
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

This description of God as One True God and His Anointed as the First and the Last is carried through to Revelation where it is extended to:

REVELATION 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

REVELATION 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Quote

And BTW, are you not applying ‘logic’ by doing this Malcolm? I could legitimately say that you are “confining God to logical limitations” by extending the premise that ‘all sons proceed their fathers’ and therefore this must apply to God as well.

Am I confining Him to anything other than His own words? I believe that of necessity God must condescend or confine Himself in a fashion in order to be seen and therefore known in and by His creation. He must limit Himself to some form in order to achieve this. Does that sound logical?

BTW – I regard Albert as the preeminent scientist of this day, an absolute genius, and I agree the bible is scientific.

Here's another example: Job 38:22 – the treasures of the snow – microscopes reveal this every flake is unique.

Quote

The New Covenant writers directly link the origin of His Sonship to his earthly existence and resurrection (Luk 1:35, Acts 13:33, Rom 1:4, Heb 1:5b).

What about Jn 1:1-3, Col 1:15-19, Phil 2:5-7

Quote

I’m interested to know what role you believe the Logos had in the creation event. Can you elucidate it for me?

COLOSSIANS 1:15-16
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Quote

Time began when matter and space was created, since it cannot exist with out these two things. In fact its now understood that space and time are so tightly coupled that physicists now refer to space-time when speaking of these components.

Interesting, this all of course would apply within the limits of the universe as we know it, right?

Quote

Are angels a “part of the Eternal God”? Not according to scripture Malcolm. I think its imperative to distinguish ‘creation’ from ‘Creator’. The former has a beginning in time and is finite in this respect, while the other is the ‘first cause’ of time, has had no beginning in it, exists outside our time domain altogether, and is infinite.

I agree that angels and heaven itself are a creation of God and distinct from Him. My point here is that if time, matter and space operate completely within the laws of the physical universe then we are saying that this spiritual realm is completely limited to these same physical laws being a part of creation. I beg to differ on that.
Point in case – Jesus entered a room when the doors were shut. He appeared, disappeared, was able to travel great distances in a moment of time, in fact lives forever as a man – defying the laws of our physical universe, or maybe not? Certainly defying the laws as we know them, of the universe as we know it.

I guess my long winded point is that you cannot compare physical things with spiritual.
As you yourself probably said or alluded to anyway – in which case on that much we agree.
(1 Cor 2:13)

Quote

That’s interesting conjecturing Malcolm but, with regard to creation, scripture only records one beginning in which ALL things were brought into existence:

I don't find mention of God creating the angels and the host of heaven in Genesis 1, unless you consider the first verse to cover this (could be) But no details are given so it remains vague.

Quote

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him

Scripture could not be more explicit in differentiating “creator” from 'creation' than in this verse.

All things were created by him that is right,

All things were redeemed by him

I CORINTHIANS 15:27-28
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son
also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

EPHESIANS 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

EPHESIANS 1:20-22
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

God IN Christ is the great revelation of the Bible.

Quote

Do I apply logic? Yes. Does this mean the spirit of God is not guiding me? No. Why should spiritual discernment and logic or reason be mutually exclusive?

By all means we should use all our senses and facilities in the pursuit of the knowledge of God, I think it was Aristotle that said 'man by nature desires to know'
I would add to this that it is in man to want to worship something.
However all of this must then be combined with the spirit to bring insight.
I do not condone ignorance on the basis that God is only known by inspiration, but neither can God be understood by human intellect alone.
A balance is required, the intelligence of men illuminated by the spirit of God.

Quote

And even our Faith should be based on 'evidence':

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”

An interesting interpretation of that verse, evidence is proof, the proof is that God said it. If it is the Word of God it is not mere ether, it is substance it will come to pass, it cannot fail to! This is all the evidence a child of faith requires.

HEBREWS 11:8-10
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

ROMANS 4:16-17
Therefore it is of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Abraham's faith is defined – he believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, he believed that He is and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him – calling those things which are not (not seen) as though they were (evidence – proven).

Quote

Where in scripture are we told to “cast down reason”?

MARK 2:8
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

I CORINTHIANS 1:21-24
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Surely wisdom involves reason?

Quote

Is he a brother like us in “every way”? Where is this written?

JOHN 15:13-15
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

HEBREWS 2:10-11
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

You claim we are not the same as Jesus our elder brother on the basis that we are not:

Quote

“ontological contempories” with Yahshua(creating all things AND upholding them, Alpha and Omega…)

It was GOD creating all things BY him, just as GOD redeemed all things BY him.

Quote

So, although He might consider us brethren, there is a clear biblical delineation drawn between us and Yahshua, in both our respective ontological and positional status. He is the ‘head’ – not an arm, leg or eye like us. He is the builder, we are His house:

Builder” and “house”. These are used by the writer of Hebrews in an analogous way to exemplify our respective “glories”. I think that's a more accurate measure of our natures, intrinsic abilities and positions.

Your excellent expansion of the term bond-servant is correct, Jesus also was a bond-servant to GOD in his flesh…
I must concede that he is unlike us in this much – he is the firstborn – the elder brother – as such he holds a position of heir that no following sons do. So in this respect yes he us unlike us. He is unique as a son, as any son is, not one of us is alike, yet we are all the same which is the old paradox of identity.

Identity is at once an indication of uniqueness and sameness.
We are identified as children OF GOD's family – the belonging identified how? By One Spirit – one lifesource.
We are identified as unique within this family also, for none of us is the same.

Quote

While we might ‘inherit’ eternal life, we are not called “eternal life” (1 Joh 1:2), and we don’t have “life in ourselves” (Joh 1:4), like The Logos was and has.

– life in ourselves, in order to be a son of God and therefore to have eternal life at all, as something that we are restored to, and are a part of, we must therefore have a seed of it in ourselves from the start. And this is the basis upon which we are predestinated, elect according to the foreknowledge of God

II TIMOTHY 2:19
N
evertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Quote

While we might ‘inherit’ eternal life, we are not called “eternal life” (1 Joh 1:2), and we don’t have “life in ourselves” (Joh 1:4), like The Logos was and has.

– the gene of any child is the exact genetic pattern of the father.

Quote

What better mediator could we have between God and man than One Who is both?

– both yes as we are through a rebirth.

Quote

I believe that any life that the son is – God is – and we are.
Where does life come from? Who is the first cause of human life?

Quote

5 – redeemed – means to buy back or to restore to a former position or status (intended or realized)

Okay. I agree. What point are you trying to make?

– point to be restored to eternal life implies we always were a part of God.

(ps I don't mind waiting)

May 9, 2006 at 10:25 am#25998

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
Christ is the head of the body and we make up the rest of that body.
Christ is the vine and we are the branches.

A head cannot survive alone without the rest of the body.
A vine is useless unless it has branches to produce fruit.

Believe it or not Christ needs us to to his work in his body on earth.
God has risked everything by using frail men to be a part of His work done through Christ on earth.

That is amazing trust.

Is anything more like to a head than another part of the same body? They both grow from the same stem cell.We are brothers of Christ utterly dependant on him but as Lord he allows us to be involved and needs our help too. Bodies share the same genes and life giving blood.

Is the vine more like to the branches or to the Gardener?

May 9, 2006 at 8:12 pm#25999

Participant

malcolm wrote:

[/quote]
Hey Malcolm,
Wow – that was fast! I haven't read fully through your post but at first glance you appear to have addressed the main points of my post, I know how long it takes to write a post like this. I appreciate it. I won't have time to reply for a few days, so yes, you will be waiting….

I did want to answer this point quickly though…

Quote

Before time? Not really he, this son would not exist before time but rather at the very moment of the beginning (is this technically time? Or not?) Making him the Alpha – the Beginning, the First.

If 'alpha' speaks of the 'beginning of the Logo's existence' then, if we follow that to its logical conclusion; 'end' must mean He has an 'end of existence'…and furthemore, 'beginning' would also mean YHWH has a beginning of existence:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

May 9, 2006 at 10:02 pm#26000

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
You can only reach a conclusion that the Son of God is equal to the Father God through belief in a trinity God.

The latest human derived trinity theory defines God as such so it has to be bolstered by attempted justifications from scripture.

Outside of that belief there is no need for any such question even to arise.

May 9, 2006 at 10:07 pm#26001

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 09 2006,21:12)

malcolm wrote:

I did want to answer this point quickly though…

Quote

Before time? Not really he, this son would not exist before time but rather at the very moment of the beginning (is this technically time? Or not?) Making him the Alpha – the Beginning, the First.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Not necessarily

If you consider it is saying I am the A to Z, I am the whole thing, the center of it all, the means and focus of and for the whole creation.
The beginning and the end does not need to mean that he has an end, merely that there is a time that he is completely revealed which shows therefore the end – or purpose of God.
I believe the entire Bible is a revelation of Jesus Christ, he is the author, redeemer, perfecter, finisher of the plan of God. God working through Christ accomplishes all of it.

May 10, 2006 at 1:19 am#26002

Participant

Hi Malcolm,
I'll pick up on the Alpha and Omega statements in my reply to your long post. Just quickly though, could you answer me something? IYHO, are these words recorded by Isaiah spoken by the Son or the Father?

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

May 10, 2006 at 1:52 am#26003

Participant

In my honest opinion
God IN Christ is the way I view it, Jesus said before Abraham was I AM, who was talking? God IN Christ. The difference? the form He was in.
Don't know if that answers anything for you or raises more questions..:D

May 10, 2006 at 4:23 am#26004

Participant

Hi Malcolm.
You may be right.

May 10, 2006 at 5:29 am#26005

Participant

Quote

Don't know if that answers anything for you or raises more questions..:D

“raises more question”? Yes – Stay tuned.

May 10, 2006 at 6:25 am#26006