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Quote The Father is God. He is greater than the Logos because he begat him.
Where is it written that the Father Begat Jesus?Quote Surely you do not suggest God begat a being who was greater than Himself?
No I did not suggest that. Even if there was an eternal begettal recorded in scripture, it stands to reason that both the begettor and begetee would have exactly the same ontology. Its illogical to think that being would beget a something of lesser nature of being. Kind begets like kind.Quote Phil 2.5f tells us about Christ Jesus, the Word of God, who was with God in the beginning and came in the flesh; “..who, though he existed in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself
taking the form of a bondservant,
and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to the point of death..”
Jesus is His earthly name, as ive already shown (Luke 1:31, Matt. 1:21, 25). It was given to His by His earthly parents, on earth, after His earthly birth.Quote Compare 1 Jn 4.2
“By this you know the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God..”
” John 4:2 is a contentious verse. John's first letter was written in a background of gnostism and John strongly refutes their false notion that Jesus only appeared to have a physical body, but was in fact a spirit being (gnostics associate materialism with evil). Many Bibles render the verse “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God”. This rendering would be in keeping with the strong gnostic theme of the letter. The Greek word used is “erchomai”; it is the middle voice of a primary verb used only in the present and imperfect tenses. The middle voice is that use of the verb which describes the subject as PARTICIPATING in the RESULTS of the action. The present tense may be used to describe an action that began in the past, CONTINUES in the present, but the emphasis is on the PRESENT time. The imperfect is often used to describe continuous action IN PROGRESS. This verb is not necessarily descriptive of a past event that is finished or completed; nor is it descriptive of an event that is yet to be. It is describing something that began with the incarnation, and continues perpetually. Or put another way; it emphasises that the flesh assumed by the Son of God in the incarnation has become His permanent possession, the Christ actually came in the flesh and has never laid it aside.”Quote He is even not called the Logos or even the Son of God but Jesus Christ. Before he was born as man he is called Jesus Christ so there is no confusion as to who is being spoken of and there is no doubt it is also spoken as a guide for those who would misunderstand scripture and think God came in the flesh.
YHWH did come in the flesh (John 19:39, Zech 12:10).Quote Phil 2.5f tells us he did not have equality and
He did not seek equality.So how come men now say he was and is equal to God?
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-7
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though He was in the form (shape; figuratively nature: – form.) of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped [or retained (grasped- Gr. harpagamos, passive sense = prized, to hold on to)], 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.The Geek word 'harpagamos' is rendered by Paul in the passive tense and therefore should properly be taken to mean 'prized', or 'retained'. You cannot prize or retain something unless you already have it. The plain, commonsense interpretation of this passage is that the pre-incarnate Word of God existed in the form (morphe) of God (i.e. of the same substance) and had equality with the Father, he chose to divest Himself of it to take on the form of a servant. The context of the passage validates this interpretation, it’s about humility. Paul uses Yahshua's decision as an exemplar model of humility and servitude.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2006,10:22) If he is God as an equal person with the Father and the Spirit from everlasting how come it does not say he already had equality?
It does.Hi Is 1.18
It is pointless to argue as you have already established you and I have unchanged views on all these matters, which we have previously discussed in detail, and we are warned not to quarrel.How was the world made through the Son of God?[Heb 1. 1-2.]
Quote Regarding the pre-incarnation birth; What I mean by this is the procreation event that resulted in the logos coming into existence. Perhaps, 'issuing forth' might have been better linguistically, although this is still unbiblical terminology. Regardless of the vocabulary, the core of my argument is this; this event is nowhere described in scripture. Yahshua doesn't say He “issued forth from God” (excluding Joh 8:42, which conveys a different meaning than you're proposing), nor do any of the OT or NT writers. You assume that Yahshua is a Son in the exact same sense as human sons are. Why? Should the infinite be held hostage to a finite limitation? The NT writers tell you exactly what it means that Yahshua is the “Son of God”. You don't need to import your own pre-suppositions. This pre-incarnation birth/procreation event you speak of –
Procreation : To beget or conceive (offspring), to produce or create or originate.
Birth : The emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother.
The act or process of bearing young; parturitionThat resulted in the logos coming into existence –
So this logos came into existence? From where? From being out of existence?
Quote The NT writers tell you exactly what it means that Yahshua is the “Son of God”. You don't need to import your own pre-suppositions. So what exactly do the NT writers tell me?
Matt 16:16 tells me he is the “Son of the Living GOD”
The offspring or progeny of a GOD who has LIFE in HIM
John 5:26 – tells me that the Father has LIFE in HIMSELF and so does the SON have that same LIFE in HIMSELF.
Well that is just like any Father – he has life in himself to produce sons and when he has a son that son has the same life in him of his father…
No surprises there.
And this son existed prior to any earthly manifestataion John 17:5 tells me.
He came from this prior existence to earth being sent from his Father.What else?
Quote Hey Malcolm,
On pg 7 of this thread you wrote this:Quote
the very word son means to issue forth from and therefore there is a point at which this beginsIs this true, or did you make it up?
Take a look at the post just above this one I am quoting – Did I make it up? Did I write the definitions on Dictionary.com?
Progeny means one born of, or derived from, an offspring, the result of a creative effort…
Does a creative effort begin at some point?
Do offspring or descendants have beginnings?
Is a birth a beginning?Malcolm,
Do you think I don't acknowledge that the Word was a living, sentient, person with “life in himself”. What makes you think this? Please show me what I have written that would leave you with this impression.Quote The offspring or progeny of a GOD who has LIFE in HIM
Is there verse in the Bible that states that the logos is “The offspring or progeny of a GOD”?Quote Well that is just like any Father – he has life in himself to produce sons and when he has a son that son has the same life in him of his father…
Why must we apply the finite human limitation that sons proceed their fathers to an infinite God. Even though there is a complete lack of scriptural evidence attesting to the Logos' beginning, should we assume that He did – simply because humans do? And not only that, should we assume that the Logos had a beginning in time when there was in fact no time?Hi Is 1.18,
We should apply it to God because scripture does.
Eph 3.14
“For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and earth derives it's name..”
God is the Father of a family.
Your family takes it's name from His family.If God does not have a Son, and a family of sons and daughters in him, then neither do you or I.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 06 2006,11:18) Quote Hey Malcolm,
On pg 7 of this thread you wrote this:Quote
the very word son means to issue forth from and therefore there is a point at which this beginsIs this true, or did you make it up?
Take a look at the post just above this one I am quoting – Did I make it up? Did I write the definitions on Dictionary.com?
Progeny means one born of, or derived from, an offspring, the result of a creative effort…
Malcolm,
You wrote: “the very word son means to issue forth from “Not quite the same as the Dictionary.com definitions.
Quote Does a creative effort begin at some point?
Did the Logos “begin at some point”? – Where is it written?Quote Do offspring or descendants have beginnings?
Was the Logos the “offspring” of God? – where is it written?Quote Is a birth a beginning?
Was the Logos “birthed”? – again…..where is it written?Hi Is 1.18,
The Son of God, the Logos, did not have a beginning in time. He had a beginning as the firstborn son, in the beginning, that is before time. He is from everlasting. He is the first of many heavenly [Jb 1,2 38, Gen 6]and earthly sons.If language loses its meaning then you might as well believe any old nonsense you like.
Human tongues may have been confused by God at Babel but He gave us His Word to communicate to us His Divine will and purpose.
He used language to preserve this, and as I have said He is more than capable of giving us fitting words, definitions and examples (types and shadows) to assist in this process.Quote Malcolm,
You wrote: “the very word son means to issue forth from “Not quite the same as the Dictionary.com definitions.
In what way does the definition differ? what is a son? a male offspring, or male child, or male progeny, a male descendant.
That is pretty self evident as to meaning but just to be sure you can look up the definitions of any of these progeny, descendant or offspring, child – its all the same thing in the end.
What you have is one born, begotten, coming forth, issuing forth or whatever, one coming into existence. All events that denote a beginning.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2006,11:53) Hi Is 1.18,
The Son of God, the Logos, did not have a beginning in time. He had a beginning as the firstborn son, in the beginning, that is before time. He is from everlasting.
You cannot have a beginning before time. If you exist outside of time, you are, by default, a time-less being. The Logos created all things – space, matter and time. The universe is a continuum of these three things, and all three are irrevocably interlinked, i.e. no one of which can have a meaningful existence without the other two (Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity). This aspect of His timelessness is underscored by John in John 1:1a. The Greek verb he used for “was” was eimi, and it is rendered in the imperfect tense. That denotes a continuous action of the Word being in the past, or simply put: whenever the “beginning” was, the Logos was already in existence. By using this construction John was making it clear that logos is without a beginning, He is time-less. Therefore, words like “first”, “last”, “preceding”, “proceeding”, “before” and “after” are non-applicable. They are appropriate only within the framework of our time-space continuum. There is no before and after in the context timelessness.Quote He is the first of many heavenly [Jb 1,2 38, Gen 6]and earthly sons.
These are angels.Goodnight.
Quote Why must we apply the finite human limitation that sons proceed their fathers to an infinite God.Why must we apply the finite human limitation that sons proceed their fathers to an infinite God. Okay so we don't want to limit GOD
Quote You cannot have a beginning before time. If you exist outside of time, you are, by default, a time-less being. The Logos created all things – space, matter and time. The universe is a continuum of these three things, and all three are irrevocably interlinked, i.e. no one of which can have a meaningful existence without the other two (Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity). We cannot limit anything here – but Einstein can?
Quote Even if there was an eternal begettal recorded in scripture, it stands to reason that both the begettor and begetee would have exactly the same ontology. Its illogical to think that being would beget a something of lesser nature of being. Kind begets like kind. Logic must apply?
Quote Oh, I was under the impression that nothing was impossible with God (Luke 1:37)? That's an argument for another day Discussion – its called a discussion board or forum, so nothing is impossible with Him – agreed.
Is Jesus our older brother?
He calls us his brethren according to the gospel and according to Paul. (Heb 2:11)
We are called sons of God, he is the son of God.
How are we his brothers? Is God our Father?
Do we have eternal life?
Are we redeemed?
What king of life does a son of God have?Quote Is Jesus co-equal with the Father? Of course He can be, Heaven is about unity among all.
All are equal,
Until there is a dispute.
Then, there is only one judge.Quote Is Jesus our older brother? Yes, when we are in our part of Gods Spirit,
then we are related to every other part of His Spirit.Genesis 6 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.At death the flesh gives up the ghost.
If our mind is in the Spirit at that time we will not see death:DQuote You cannot have a beginning before time. If you exist outside of time, you are, by default, a time-less being. The Logos created all things – space, matter and time. The universe is a continuum of these three things, and all three are irrevocably interlinked, i.e. no one of which can have a meaningful existence without the other two (Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity). What do the theories of man have to do with laws of GOD?
Do you really think that Einstein knew more about the laws of connectivity in this universe
than GOD does?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 06 2006,12:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2006,11:53) Hi Is 1.18,
The Son of God, the Logos, did not have a beginning in time. He had a beginning as the firstborn son, in the beginning, that is before time. He is from everlasting.
You cannot have a beginning before time. If you exist outside of time, you are, by default, a time-less being. The Logos created all things – space, matter and time. The universe is a continuum of these three things, and all three are irrevocably interlinked, i.e. no one of which can have a meaningful existence without the other two (Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity). This aspect of His timelessness is underscored by John in John 1:1a. The Greek verb he used for “was” was eimi, and it is rendered in the imperfect tense. That denotes a continuous action of the Word being in the past, or simply put: whenever the “beginning” was, the Logos was already in existence. By using this construction John was making it clear that logos is without a beginning, He is time-less. Therefore, words like “first”, “last”, “preceding”, “proceeding”, “before” and “after” are non-applicable. They are appropriate only within the framework of our time-space continuum. There is no before and after in the context timelessness.Quote He is the first of many heavenly [Jb 1,2 38, Gen 6]and earthly sons.
These are angels.Goodnight.
Hi Is 1.18,
Do we know enough about the nature of divinity to define God? Is that not the ultimate vanity to attempt to do so?Do we even understand time? God existed before time was created in Genesis 1 and so was the Word with Him before then.
We have no measures to span backwards from the moment time and the universe existed. Science stumbles here as it has no measures.
All God has given us is a name for this eternal era as “the beginning”
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 06 2006,12:14) Quote He is the first of many heavenly [Jb 1,2 38, Gen 6]and earthly sons.
These are angels.
Hi Is 1.18,
I am not disagreeing with you though Archangels or Princes may be more accurate.
But where is it written [as you have demanded of the sonship of the Logos to God]?Quote (TJStarfire @ May 06 2006,14:17) Quote Is Jesus co-equal with the Father? Of course He can be, Heaven is about unity among all.
All are equal,
Until there is a dispute.
Then, there is only one judge.
Hi TJS,
You could only make comment here if you believe in the bible or on the basis of your own weak human understanding surely?Quote (TJStarfire @ May 06 2006,14:47) Quote You cannot have a beginning before time. If you exist outside of time, you are, by default, a time-less being. The Logos created all things – space, matter and time. The universe is a continuum of these three things, and all three are irrevocably interlinked, i.e. no one of which can have a meaningful existence without the other two (Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity). What do the theories of man have to do with laws of GOD?
Do you really think that Einstein knew more about the laws of connectivity in this universe
than GOD does?
Good point TJS,
Scince is an honourable effort but it often shows man's vain attempt to define what we cannot even begin to fully grasp.
Theology is pure vanity except as it is totally scripturally based. Logic is of the Greeks and is only useful as it works with scripture, in scripture, through scripture to extract truth.We do not even know what we do not know which makes us totally ignorant especially about God. How can we begin to know the similarities and differences between God and other divine beings?
Yet men dare to define divinity as a certain 'substance' which is always the same? God is immutable but His images may well be different. They use the useless measures of men and apply them to what is unknowable for now.
What blind and dangerous arrogance!
Hi Is 1.18,
God was outside of time when he created it through the Logos who was with Him. Just because the Logos is before time does not state he had no beginning. That is a construct added by men and not proven from scripture. All sons have a beginning and are, by definition as Malcolm has said, not always contemporaneous with their fathers.
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