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Quote (Sammo @ May 05 2006,04:44) All the same, I doubt if Joseph and Pharaoh were 100% the same being…
Hey Sammo!
Im interested to know what exactly you mean by this. Can you please elaborate?Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 05 2006,04:46) If Jesus is coequal then how do we reconcile this with scripture in which Jesus says: JOHN 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.and I know the next verse says “I and my Father are one”, It does not say “I am my Father” or “I am equal with my Father” – it is speaking of the unity they have in will and purpose.
Jesus also said
JOHN 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.MARK 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.I would hardly call that co equality.
I CORINTHIANS 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.I don't see co-equality expressed here either.
Malcolm,
Happy to address all these verses, and I think I probably have dealt with most of them at some point in time. But I would first like you to point me to a verse that describes (or even alludes to) the Father procreating the pre-incarnate Yahshua before his incarnation.Also, can you clarify for me whether you understand the 'inequality' btwn the Father and Son to be one of ontology/nature, or of function/authority/position. Or perhaps it's both?
Cheers.
Context is important
When Jesus says 'the Father is greater than I' what context is this in …JOHN 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.SO context is definately important.
ISAIAH 59:15-16
Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 05 2006,05:11) Context is important
When Jesus says 'the Father is greater than I' what context is this in …JOHN 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.SO context is definately important.
ISAIAH 59:15-16
Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
I don't follow you reasoning. Are you saying that the context of John 14:28 demands that “greater” must be understood to mean 'superior in nature/ontology'? If so, please explain to me how you reached this conclusion.Hi,
“Greater” is not an theological or ontological word. It is a word in common usage that has a simple meaning that children can understand. It is used to compare those who have higher glory and authority than those who have lesser.
John was anointed by God as a prophet and higher thus in authority than other men.
Likewise the woman at the well asked if Jesus had higher authority than Jacob, her God approved leader from of old.
Again the Jews demanded that Jesus prove he had greater authority than Abraham, whose words they knew were from God and they knew he was approved unto God as a teacher and leader.Authority begins with God and those whom God has established as proven.
A servant serves those at table and “no servant is greater than his master” Jesus told us.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 05 2006,04:56) Quote (Sammo @ May 05 2006,04:44) All the same, I doubt if Joseph and Pharaoh were 100% the same being…
Hey Sammo!
Im interested to know what exactly you mean by this. Can you please elaborate?
Hey Isa 1:18Would you believe it, I was actually in your neck of the woods last week, and tried giving you a call, but the phone was engaged! The way things go, I guess
What I meant was, that even if Joseph and Pharaoh were 'co-equal' in the sense that they were both men (as Jesus might be co-equal to God in the sense that they were of the same 'kind'), they certainly weren't 100% the same being (as Jesus and the Father are said to both be 100% God).
So the relationship between Joseph and Pharaoh can't be seen to represent a trinitarian relationship between Jesus and the Father – but it can be seen to represent a non-trinitarian relationship between Jesus and God.
Take care
nick wrote:[/quote]
“”Greater” is not an theological or ontological word. “I couldn't agree more! The word's usage has nothing to do with ontology and everything to do with authority. The verses that state that The Father is “greater” or “greatest” can never be legitimately used to prove that Yahshua has a inferior nature to His Father.
Quote (Sammo @ May 05 2006,05:31) What I meant was, that even if Joseph and Pharaoh were 'co-equal' in the sense that they were both men (as Jesus might be co-equal to God in the sense that they were of the same 'kind'), they certainly weren't 100% the same being (as Jesus and the Father are said to both be 100% God). So the relationship between Joseph and Pharaoh can't be seen to represent a trinitarian relationship between Jesus and the Father – but it can be seen to represent a non-trinitarian relationship between Jesus and God.
Take care
Quote Hey Isa 1:18 Would you believe it, I was actually in your neck of the woods last week, and tried giving you a call, but the phone was engaged! The way things go, I guess
Too bad! Actually we've moved and our ph# has changed, i'll PM you the new one in case you are in the area again any time soon. Would love to catch up!Quote What I meant was, that even if Joseph and Pharaoh were 'co-equal' in the sense that they were both men (as Jesus might be co-equal to God in the sense that they were of the same 'kind'), they certainly weren't 100% the same being (as Jesus and the Father are said to both be 100% God). So the relationship between Joseph and Pharaoh can't be seen to represent a trinitarian relationship between Jesus and the Father – but it can be seen to represent a non-trinitarian relationship between Jesus and God.
Trinitarian or non-trinitarian wise, I don't think it's ever appropriate or legitimate to use human analogies to convey a truth about God's nature or identity. You're dealing with the infinite.Hi Is 1.18
I agree we should not put theoretical constraints on the nature of God, such as is trinity theory, as it is dangerous to speculate beyond revelation about matters simply beyond our ken.Quote But I would first like you to point me to a verse that describes (or even alludes to) the Father procreating the pre-incarnate Yahshua before his incarnation. Psalm 2:7
HEBREWS 1:5-6
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.As we know a son is one who issues forth from a Father and therefore has a beginning
PROVERBS 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?Quote Also, can you clarify for me whether you understand the 'inequality' btwn the Father and Son to be one of ontology/nature, or of function/authority/position. Or perhaps it's both? I think Nick just did a pretty good job of that.
Quote (Sammo @ May 05 2006,05:31) What I meant was, that even if Joseph and Pharaoh were 'co-equal' in the sense that they were both men (as Jesus might be co-equal to God in the sense that they were of the same 'kind'), they certainly weren't 100% the same being (as Jesus and the Father are said to both be 100% God).
So you're saying that because humans can only be one person it automatically follows that all higher beings must also be the same? Why? By doing so aren't you, in some sense, making God in our own image? I would expect a universe-creating being to be a little more complex than a human being, and I don't think we should sieve all biblical information through an anthropic filter…..Quote HEBREWS 1:5-6
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Haven't we already discussed the NT applications of Ps 2:7? According to Paul this declaration applies to the resurrection (Acts 13:33, cf. Rom 1:4). There is no evidence that this is a pre-incarnation utterance.Quote As we know a son is one who issues forth from a Father and therefore has a beginning
Do we know that? Show me a verse that states that the pre-incarnation Yahshua “issued forth” from the Father and came into existence. There is one verse I know that could be used to show this, but on close examination you will see that it speaks of the Father sending Yahshua into the world.Quote PROVERBS 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Actually its quite unclear what “Son” is in this verse denotes. Israel is also called God's Son – a firstborn one, no less (Ex 4:22). Even if it is a reference to Yahshua where is that part the describes the birth event?Quote Also, can you clarify for me whether you understand the 'inequality' btwn the Father and Son to be one of ontology/nature, or of function/authority/position. Or perhaps it's both? I think Nick just did a pretty good job of that.
I'm asking you for your understanding Malcolm. Or does NH speak for you on all matters of biblical understanding?Thanks for the #
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 05 2006,05:55) So you're saying that because humans can only be one person it automatically follows that all higher beings must also be the same? Why? By doing so aren't you, in some sense, making God in our own image? I would expect a universe-creating being to be a little more complex than a human being, and I don't think we should sieve all biblical information through an anthropic filter…..
Yet that's the way God presents himself – as a being with hands and feelings and a face etc – and, in the case of Joseph, as a separate person, Pharoah.If God wanted to present himself as a Trinity, then why didn't he? Men seem to have done this reasonably well in the creeds – surely the higher, universe creating God of heaven and earth could have done at least as well?
Quote Do we know that? Show me a verse that states that the pre-incarnation Yahshua “issued forth” from the Father and came into existence. There is one verse I know that could be used to show this, but on close examination you will see that it speaks of the Father sending Yahshua into the world. JOHN 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.That's the one you are referring to isn't it?
JOHN 17:4-5
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.I know of no son who can say to his friends: 'my father sent me into the world with his words to tell to you' (John 5:36, John 12:49) or 'my father who sent me into the world is also in me and he is speaking through me'.(John 8:18, John 8:29)
Or who can say to his father 'give me the honour and authority that I had with you before you sent me into this world'.
Why? because we didn't exist before we come forth from our earthly Fathers.
Yet he could say this, why is that?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 05 2006,05:55) Quote (Sammo @ May 05 2006,05:31) What I meant was, that even if Joseph and Pharaoh were 'co-equal' in the sense that they were both men (as Jesus might be co-equal to God in the sense that they were of the same 'kind'), they certainly weren't 100% the same being (as Jesus and the Father are said to both be 100% God).
So you're saying that because humans can only be one person it automatically follows that all higher beings must also be the same? Why? By doing so aren't you, in some sense, making God in our own image? I would expect a universe-creating being to be a little more complex than a human being, and I don't think we should sieve all biblical information through an anthropic filter…..
Hi Is 1.18
But we are made in the image of God
and none of us has three persons in us??I always thought the “image” of God, meant we were created with certains godly characteristics (such as love, and the power of reason, etc) that, let's say the animals for example, don't have.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 05 2006,04:01) Hi Malcolm,
The relationship between Pharaoh and Joseph would seem similar. Joseph was given full authroty by Pharaoh, and he could act as Pharoah, but he was always under the authority of Pharaoh?
right on Nick,by making Joseph Lord over all Egypt didn't lessen Pharaoh's position. Pharaoh made it very clear that he was still Pharaoh.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 05 2006,07:05) Quote Do we know that? Show me a verse that states that the pre-incarnation Yahshua “issued forth” from the Father and came into existence. There is one verse I know that could be used to show this, but on close examination you will see that it speaks of the Father sending Yahshua into the world. JOHN 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.That's the one you are referring to isn't it?
JOHN 17:4-5
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.I know of no son who can say to his friends: 'my father sent me into the world with his words to tell to you' (John 5:36, John 12:49) or 'my father who sent me into the world is also in me and he is speaking through me'.(John 8:18, John 8:29)
Or who can say to his father 'give me the honour and authority that I had with you before you sent me into this world'.
Why? because we didn't exist before we come forth from our earthly Fathers.
Yet he could say this, why is that?
The point is, Malcolm, that the “proceeding forth” in this verse is not a reference to the Logos coming into existence, He already existed before he was sent, right? The truth is there are NO verses that describe or allude to a pre-incarnation begettal. If i'm wrong, then show me one.Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 05 2006,07:05) Quote Do we know that? Show me a verse that states that the pre-incarnation Yahshua “issued forth” from the Father and came into existence. There is one verse I know that could be used to show this, but on close examination you will see that it speaks of the Father sending Yahshua into the world. JOHN 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.That's the one you are referring to isn't it?
JOHN 17:4-5
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.I know of no son who can say to his friends: 'my father sent me into the world with his words to tell to you' (John 5:36, John 12:49) or 'my father who sent me into the world is also in me and he is speaking through me'.(John 8:18, John 8:29)
Or who can say to his father 'give me the honour and authority that I had with you before you sent me into this world'.
Why? because we didn't exist before we come forth from our earthly Fathers.
Yet he could say this, why is that?
Hi Is 1.18,
If you are determined not to see something no man can make you see it.
When scripture says he proceeded from AND came from God they refer surely to different events because scripture is absolutely concise. The first event was the 'proceeding forth' and the second the 'coming from God'.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 05 2006,06:16) Quote HEBREWS 1:5-6
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Haven't we already discussed the NT applications of Ps 2:7? According to Paul this declaration applies to the resurrection (Acts 13:33, cf. Rom 1:4). There is no evidence that this is a pre-incarnation utterance.Quote As we know a son is one who issues forth from a Father and therefore has a beginning
Do we know that? Show me a verse that states that the pre-incarnation Yahshua “issued forth” from the Father and came into existence. There is one verse I know that could be used to show this, but on close examination you will see that it speaks of the Father sending Yahshua into the world.Quote PROVERBS 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Actually its quite unclear what “Son” is in this verse denotes. Israel is also called God's Son – a firstborn one, no less (Ex 4:22). Even if it is a reference to Yahshua where is that part the describes the birth event?Quote Also, can you clarify for me whether you understand the 'inequality' btwn the Father and Son to be one of ontology/nature, or of function/authority/position. Or perhaps it's both? I think Nick just did a pretty good job of that.
I'm asking you for your understanding Malcolm. Or does NH speak for you on all matters of biblical understanding?
Hi Is 1 .18,
Paul used Psalm 2 in several different ways because he had little option. Scripture in the OT has few references to the sonship of Jesus Christ. He is the secret hidden from men's eyes and seen only by those with spiritual eyes when he came.
So here in Hebrews 1 he gives a chronological picture.Do you no longer believe all creation came through him?
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