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Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 10 2006,20:13) Does a WORD of God exist before it is spoken? good question.
I believe it does, I believe God's Word comes from His thoughts.
A word is a thought expressed. I believe His thoughts are eternal.
So although the expression has a beginning, the thought was with God beforehand. It is a part of Him expressed to show forth His great plan and purpose or to show forth of Himself.
Aah…Malcolm, but were the sum total of God FIRST not, he couldn't think. He is and therefore all good proceeds from him, including his thoughts and words. A thought could be and then not, or not and then be. Transient. The thinker has control over his thoughts.When God says Jer 29:11 For I KNOW the THOUGHTS that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. I am convinced that it is he who has control over his thoughts and speech.
“I know…” denotes consciousness and a state of awareness that precedes thought and thinking. I am aware of and know my surroundings without thinking any particular thoughts about them, I choose instead to think about the things of God and what I am writing here. I as a human could be distracted, my thoughts interrupted, or I could choose to suspend them until a more convenient time.
The bible leads me to believe that I have some degree of control over my thinking and thoughts, so God must too.
- Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.
Hi Cubes
Quote Aah…Malcolm, but were the sum total of God FIRST not, he couldn't think. He is and therefore all good proceeds from him, including his thoughts and words. A thought could be and then not, or not and then be. Transient. The thinker has control over his thoughts ISAIAH 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Gods thoughts and our thoughts are a incomparable, I can think something and it does not necessarily happen – God on the other hand, if He has a thought it cannot fail to manifest exactly as He has thought it, it cannot fail to become a word to manifest that thought.
Can God have a new thought? It would therefore be something new to Him – how would He then be omniscient? If He did not know the end from the beginning before any of it ever happened?
God is an infinite being, an eternal Spirit, we are finite and temporal – we cannot hope to understand Him except by the way He reveals Himself.
God's Word comes forth like the rain and is unfailing in bringing forth that which it was intended to. Just as a seed can only bring forth according to the pattern of life contained within it, so God's Word will accomplish that which he purposes and prosper in the thing whereunto He sent it.
Now I would not wish to limit my concept of Him or what He is able to do or how He is able to do it. I am fairly sure of two things that He cannot do: He cannot lie and He cannot fail.
Both of these things we mere mortals are not only capable of but almost certain of without His help to overcome.
I know I cannot speak and it happens without fail. I know I cannot plan something even one day into the future with absolute confidence that every detail will transpire as planned.
I know that I can be distracted by all manner of things, and that my mind is constantly thinking, receiving all sorts of unsolicited input all the time, and that I must consciously filter out that which I do not chose to focus on.
But I do not know that I can compare these attributes of the way my mind works and the way I think to God and the way He thinks. I am fairly sure that they are as dissimilar as the first two attributes of God that I mentioned: His inability to lie or to fail.
I absolutely agree that God is in complete charge of His own thoughts, and is fully responsible for all of them. Even as I am for my own, I will have to give account for mine as to how well they measure up to His, to His Word and will. But I see nowhere where He will have to justify Himself to me.
Anyway that's just my two cents worthBlessings
Hi Malcolm,
A thought may exist as a thought but it's expression as Word changes it's character. It is no longer just a thought or even a plan but an expression of that thought or plan as Word.The thoughts of God He tells us are higher than ours.
I read that God changes not, His Word changes not, I do not believe that He changes His mind, like we do.
I believe that He is perfect all His ways and works are perfect.
So whether it is a thought or the expression of that same thought in manifestation in His creation, the only thing that changes is the form it is expressed in.
As Hebrews 1:1 shows us.
Did the character of God or His Word change because the form changed?
I believe it is the same God, same Spirit of Life throughout.
Is 55:10 declares that God's Word accomplishes what it has purposed, there is no change in that purpose it remains pure, the accomplishment is precisely as God has determined it to be.
I don't see any changes going on at all, God's thoughts are real as far as I am concerned, unlike ours.
We cannot by taking thought add one cubit to our height, but He has numbered the hairs on our head. We cannot have a thought speak it and see it come to pass without fail. He can.God is perfect. He would not change. What changes our thoughts is the battle between good and evil. To believe God or to believe Satan. This battle started even before the garden of Eden. God, knew Satan would cause the fall of man. It is for this reason that even before he created anything, he begat our salvation, his Son. the Word.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 11 2006,12:10) The thoughts of God He tells us are higher than ours.
I read that God changes not, His Word changes not, I do not believe that He changes His mind, like we do.
I believe that He is perfect all His ways and works are perfect.
So whether it is a thought or the expression of that same thought in manifestation in His creation, the only thing that changes is the form it is expressed in.
As Hebrews 1:1 shows us.
Did the character of God or His Word change because the form changed?
I believe it is the same God, same Spirit of Life throughout.
Is 55:10 declares that God's Word accomplishes what it has purposed, there is no change in that purpose it remains pure, the accomplishment is precisely as God has determined it to be.
I don't see any changes going on at all, God's thoughts are real as far as I am concerned, unlike ours.
We cannot by taking thought add one cubit to our height, but He has numbered the hairs on our head. We cannot have a thought speak it and see it come to pass without fail. He can.
Hi Malcolm,
Mt 8.7
“Jesus said to him
'I will come and heal him'
But the centurion said
'Lord, I am not worthy for you to come under my roof, but just say the WORD and my servant will be healed.For I am a man under authority with soldiers under me;
and I say to this one
'Go'
and he goes,
and to another
'Come'
and he comes
and to my slave
'Do this!'
and he does it
Now when Jesus heard this he said to those who were following
'Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel'”We can learn from this gentile sinner.
A word is SENT from his lips and the work is done.You hit the nail on the head there Nick.
If Jesus' words had no authority then they would be little more than human philosophy and good intentions. For authority to work there has to be a power behind the one claiming that authority.Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 11 2006,10:54) Hi Cubes Quote Aah…Malcolm, but were the sum total of God FIRST not, he couldn't think. He is and therefore all good proceeds from him, including his thoughts and words. A thought could be and then not, or not and then be. Transient. The thinker has control over his thoughts ISAIAH 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Gods thoughts and our thoughts are a incomparable, I can think something and it does not necessarily happen – God on the other hand, if He has a thought it cannot fail to manifest exactly as He has thought it, it cannot fail to become a word to manifest that thought.
Can God have a new thought? It would therefore be something new to Him – how would He then be omniscient? If He did not know the end from the beginning before any of it ever happened?
God is an infinite being, an eternal Spirit, we are finite and temporal – we cannot hope to understand Him except by the way He reveals Himself.
God's Word comes forth like the rain and is unfailing in bringing forth that which it was intended to. Just as a seed can only bring forth according to the pattern of life contained within it, so God's Word will accomplish that which he purposes and prosper in the thing whereunto He sent it.
Now I would not wish to limit my concept of Him or what He is able to do or how He is able to do it. I am fairly sure of two things that He cannot do: He cannot lie and He cannot fail.
Both of these things we mere mortals are not only capable of but almost certain of without His help to overcome.
I know I cannot speak and it happens without fail. I know I cannot plan something even one day into the future with absolute confidence that every detail will transpire as planned.
I know that I can be distracted by all manner of things, and that my mind is constantly thinking, receiving all sorts of unsolicited input all the time, and that I must consciously filter out that which I do not chose to focus on.
But I do not know that I can compare these attributes of the way my mind works and the way I think to God and the way He thinks. I am fairly sure that they are as dissimilar as the first two attributes of God that I mentioned: His inability to lie or to fail.
I absolutely agree that God is in complete charge of His own thoughts, and is fully responsible for all of them. Even as I am for my own, I will have to give account for mine as to how well they measure up to His, to His Word and will. But I see nowhere where He will have to justify Himself to me.
Anyway that's just my two cents worthBlessings
A good post, Malcolm and I agree.However, you didn't address the aspect of conciousness and self-awareness in relation to thoughts.
Why can't we just agree that GOD is, and that he is the God and Father of the Word, Christ Jesus our Lord. Isn't that the bottomline?
Consciousness as far as I understand it is the ability to think, which denotes of necessity self-awareness on the part of the thinker.
So you are right – he that comes to God must believe that He is and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
He is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh and given for us.
And being the Father of the Word, and the Word being God, Life, Light, Love, Truth they are of one, and we are also of one.Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 11 2006,21:42) You hit the nail on the head there Nick.
If Jesus' words had no authority then they would be little more than human philosophy and good intentions. For authority to work there has to be a power behind the one claiming that authority.
Hi Malcolm,
The Word was spoken into existence and was with God since the beginning. But the Word, through who all creation came, had life in himself and as such was used by the builder in this creation.
But that was not his anointing. That only was given to him on earth in the Jordan when the Spirit stayed on him.The conduit of power became himself a source of that power and their unity in that Spirit is forever.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2006,20:23) Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 11 2006,12:10) The thoughts of God He tells us are higher than ours.
I read that God changes not, His Word changes not, I do not believe that He changes His mind, like we do.
I believe that He is perfect all His ways and works are perfect.
So whether it is a thought or the expression of that same thought in manifestation in His creation, the only thing that changes is the form it is expressed in.
As Hebrews 1:1 shows us.
Did the character of God or His Word change because the form changed?
I believe it is the same God, same Spirit of Life throughout.
Is 55:10 declares that God's Word accomplishes what it has purposed, there is no change in that purpose it remains pure, the accomplishment is precisely as God has determined it to be.
I don't see any changes going on at all, God's thoughts are real as far as I am concerned, unlike ours.
We cannot by taking thought add one cubit to our height, but He has numbered the hairs on our head. We cannot have a thought speak it and see it come to pass without fail. He can.
Hi Malcolm,
Mt 8.7
“Jesus said to him
'I will come and heal him'
But the centurion said
'Lord, I am not worthy for you to come under my roof, but just say the WORD and my servant will be healed.For I am a man under authority with soldiers under me;
and I say to this one
'Go'
and he goes,
and to another
'Come'
and he comes
and to my slave
'Do this!'
and he does it
Now when Jesus heard this he said to those who were following
'Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel'”We can learn from this gentile sinner.
A word is SENT from his lips and the work is done.
Hi,
Is the centurion not a type of Christ?
He is under authority but has complete authority over those who are his servants and his slaves. He has power and armour and weapons coming from his appointment and his appointed role.
But he is not a law unto himself but works only according to the chain of command. He only does what he sees and hears as instructions from his commander. But no man can dare refuse that will expressed in him.
We are not even servants but totally dependant weak and useless bondservants or slaves following orders.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2006,23:05) Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 11 2006,21:42) You hit the nail on the head there Nick.
If Jesus' words had no authority then they would be little more than human philosophy and good intentions. For authority to work there has to be a power behind the one claiming that authority.
Hi Malcolm,
The Word was spoken into existence and was with God since the beginning. But the Word, through who all creation came, had life in himself and as such was used by the builder in this creation.
But that was not his anointing. That only was given to him on earth in the Jordan when the Spirit stayed on him.The conduit of power became himself a source of that power and their unity in that Spirit is forever.
Hi NickThe anointing that Jesus received at the river Jordan is described by Paul (Col 2:9, 1 Tim 3:16) as God manifest, by His Spirit, the fullness of God (Theotes).
Jesus said that his father was living in him as a tabernacle, and working through him both speaking and doing.John 3:34
For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.Jesus had the Spirit of God without measure, the fullness of God, his Father dwelling in him. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. God is our savior – He came down and identified Himself as such in His only begotten Son. Jesus was Emmanuel – God with us. It was God who raised Jesus His Son from the grave. God personally indwelt His son I believe. God Himself was present to do it. This was not just some anointing that he was given. Jesus spoke in the first person for God – not “thus saith the Lord” but rather “I say unto you” yet he also spoke as a man in the second person to God. So Paul is right to call it a mystery of godliness – God was manifest in the flesh. The flesh was His Son Jesus. He was Justified in the Spirit – shown to be righteous or right – proven to be God in the flesh how? By the works which no man can do, to show God's vindication – proof that what he was saying was correct.
John 10:37-38
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”John 10:25
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.Hi Malcolm,
So did God leave heaven to indwell His Son?
Or did God indwell him always?
Was God always only in the Son in heaven?
Was God only in His Son on earth?
Or did God indwell him only from his birth?
Is God so small to you he has manly dimensions?
If he was only in His Son who sat on His throne?
Or was the throne empty?
Was another being left in charge of heaven?Can you give us scriptural support for your thoughts?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2006,01:35) Hi Malcolm,
So did God leave heaven to indwell His Son?
Or did God indwell him always?
Was God always only in the Son in heaven?
Was God only in His Son on earth?
Or did God indwell him only from his birth?
Is God so small to you he has manly dimensions?
If he was only in His Son who sat on His throne?
Or was the throne empty?
Was another being left in charge of heaven?Can you give us scriptural support for your thoughts?
Quote So did God leave heaven to indwell His Son? I cannot make definitive statements about such things, my understanding is that Heaven is more like another dimension than another entirely different place geographically. So I am not about to limit God by saying He had to leave one place to be in another. I believe that Heavens and earth met and embraced when the Dove came down upon the Lamb. That reconciliation was wrought through the precious Son of God. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Quote Or did God indwell him always? I believe it was on the river Jordan that God was pleased to put His Spirit upon Jesus, that this is when all fullness dwelled in Him.
Quote Was God always only in the Son in heaven? Genesis 1:26 tells me that God said let us make man … US – who? Father and Son – this is the unchanging yet ever unfolding revelation of how God is made known to and in creation. In Revelation 22 we find a throne that has been established on earth, it is the throne of God from Heaven come down to earth and it is called the throne of God and the Lamb – the Father and the Son. I understand that God was with His Son in Heaven, and John 17:5 tells me that in this place God glorified His Son with His own self – (indwelling Him?)
Revelation 3:21 tells me from Jesus' own words that he is not at present seated on his own throne but is on his Father's throne. I understand he will sit on his own throne in the millennium as the son of David – the prince of Peace in a 1000 year reign of peace and prosperity. After which, I understand he will sit with His Father on a co-joint throne on earth – even as Pharaoh and Joseph type for us in the OT.Quote Was God only in His Son on earth? I have probably already answered this in the above…
Quote Or did God indwell him only from his birth? So many questions, many of which I have already answered in other places before. He was born the son of God – (for he was the son of God begotten of God before even this – so birth in the flesh did not change this fact) As a son of God – he had God's life in him. For all sons live by the life of their father's as far as I am aware. So his soul came from God. His body was of the earth and therefore perishable as the earth is cursed for Adam's sake.
Quote Is God so small to you he has manly dimensions? God has children, these are men, they are in His image and likeness.
God had a son Jesus – His first begotten, this son was made a man, he was called the image of the invisible God, the express image of His person.
God is not small Nick as you well know, He is not a man either, but God was in a man – His tabernacle in flesh, and is in His many-membered body also.
But there is a difference in the manner in which He is in us and was in Him. All fullness dwelt in him, we all have received of this fullness (John 1:16) but in measure to each to form a body for the head to come and be united to. But he who is the head has not the spirit by measure, he has the fullness.Quote If he was only in His Son who sat on His throne?
Or was the throne empty?Now who is limiting God Nick? Is God so small to you that He must conform to your idea of place and propriety? We are said to be the temple of God (who have the Spirit of God dwelling in our hearts) Jesus also is called God's tabernacle. In the New Jerusalem there is no temple for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (Rev 21:22) God is right now enthroned in the hearts of His faithful – does that mean the throne in Heaven is empty.
Quote Can you give us scriptural support for your thoughts? Col 1:19
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in HimSo God was well pleased to have all the fullness indwell His Son.
Mt 3:17
and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”It was God's good pleasure to declare Jesus to be His Son.
Mt 12:18
BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED;
I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM,AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.It was God's good pleasure to put His Spirit upon His Son, to dwell in him. He was pleased to fully indwell His Son.
Hi Malcolm,
I appreciate your patience but it is worth chasing the last drop of truth we can find.So God spoke from the heavens about His Son at least twice.
So why did He not speak from within the Christ as He did at times?
So “the fullness in Christ” was it fullness of being or fulness of nature and powers?
The fruit of the Spirit we can share surely lays out the personality and nature of God. But as expressed in the apostles there were wide variations.
All together I believe they made up this nature, but from their words was sparky James like to loving John? Or brave Peter to careful Luke? Or speedy Mark to fussy Matthew?
And we also can have a share in the gifts too which surely are the abilitiy of God expressed in part in men?.
Quote So God spoke from the heavens about His Son at least twice.
So why did He not speak from within the Christ as He did at times?Sorry Nick you have lost me, could you elaborate please?
Quote So “the fullness in Christ” was it fullness of being or fulness of nature and powers? At the risk of using “non-biblical” terms, let me see if I understand what you are asking here:
Fullness of being – is this what I would term “Lifesource” – or the person from whom the life comes?
Fullness of nature and powers – is this what I would term “Lifestream” – or the life of son(s) from a Father?If so then I would say that fullness of being – Deity Himself dwelt in Jesus from the river Jordan. (IMHO)
Quote The fruit of the Spirit we can share surely lays out the personality and nature of God. But as expressed in the apostles there were wide variations.
All together I believe they made up this nature, but from their words was sparky James like to loving John? Or brave Peter to careful Luke? Or speedy Mark to fussy Matthew?This is entirely in keeping with the idea of a stream of life or lineage – which produces from one ancestral life source a multitude of individual offspring, each unique – yet all with the characteristics of life of the ancestor.
Or even as the body is one but has many members – each differing from the other – yet all a part of each other – connected by one life. As a family is one yet has many members.Quote And we also can have a share in the gifts too which surely are the abilitiy of God expressed in part in men?. Yes which is God working in His many membered body, by His Spirit, through faith in the Word of promise. And these gifts and callings are without repentance, meaning for instance that God called Paul to be His apostle before the foundation of the world. He had separated him from his mothers womb, and when it pleased him, He (God) revealed to Paul – His Son in Paul. (Gal 1:15-16)
Hi Malcolm,
If the fulness of being is spoken of then surely God must not be in heaven as well or could not speak from heaven?
I prefer the finger of God parallel-God fully expressed in the Son in all ways,
but still in heaven..2 Corinthians 12:1-4
Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
And I know how such a man–whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows–
was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.So this man was caught up into the 3rd heaven, whether in or out of the body is indeterminable, this same man was caught up into paradise to hear words inexpressible and impermissible for a man to speak. So where was the man? (whether out of the body or in the body) In Heaven? or on earth? In paradise? Or on earth?
John 3:11-12
Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?I say to you – what did he say unto Nicodemus? We speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
Then he continues – if I told you earthly things… how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?The “I” was Jesus the man speaking to Nicodemus – who was the “we” that he drops in between?
When one receives a vision or revelation from God what is going on? Many times they speak of being caught up, do they physically change location? I would have to say like Paul – I do not know. We understand that words and pictures are flying all around us all the time. If we have a television set or a radio or some kind of a receiver we can pick up, translate and transmit these sounds (and/or) pictures. It would seem to me that Heaven is not a location in some distant place but is another dimension. God could speak from Heaven and be heard on earth, the heavens could open and reveal a view of Jesus seated on the right hand of the Majesty on high. I wouldn't pretend to understand it, but I do not limit God in His abilities. There is a time to come when Heaven and earth will be united, I believe Jesus Christ was the first example of this – of the future union between the Heavenly creation and the earthly, in which God will be All and in All.
Hi Malcolm,
I have no problem with God being in Christ.He was.
“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
Coll1.19
“For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness[4138] to dwell in him”
Coll 2.9
“For in him all the fullness[4138]of deity dwells in bodily form”
So also with Us
Eph 1.22f
“the church, which is his body, the fullness[4138]of Him who fills all in all”
Eph 3.19
” and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up with all the fullness [4138]of God”So whatever filled Christ also fills us . Now God is not divided, but His Spirit, the Spirit of Christ is shared among all. Thus it seems likely to me that what is being spoken of here is the Spirit of God which is God Himself as God is Spirit, the finger of God Himself that is of, and reveals God Himself.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 12 2006,03:49) Yes which is God working in His many membered body, by His Spirit, through faith in the Word of promise. And these gifts and callings are without repentance, meaning for instance that God called Paul to be His apostle before the foundation of the world. He had separated him from his mothers womb, and when it pleased him, He (God) revealed to Paul – His Son in Paul. (Gal 1:15-16)
Hi Malcolm,
Surely you would not read this as Jesus always having been in Paul? Ananias came to him that he be filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts 9.17.
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