Co equal

[Is 1:18]

Hi WIT,
In addressing a lot of points you raised in your post I would just be recycling and emphasising previous statements I have made. I don't think arguing in circles is going to be productive for either of us, and I have said all I think I need to, so I’ll leave those matters as they are…

Quote

Assuming that your assertion here is correct, (which I obviously do not believe personally), I count only four verses in three books of the NT that call Jesus “God”.  As you know, there are 27 books in the NT and 7956 verses.”.

Actually I think its closer to nine, but there are some ambiguities in the Greek with some of them meaning they can (to a degree) be argued two ways. Even though I think the grammatical evidences in all of them greatly favour the trinitarian interpretation, to avoid more semantics I only cited the clear cut ones. And besides, you're completely ignoring the inferential evidence for the deity of Yahshua, which IMHO is substantial. The NT writers showed no hesitancy in applying to Yahshua Old Testament descriptions and privileges that are reserved specifically for YHWH. Actually, here is an interesting exercise if ever you have the time or inclination, go through the NT and try and collate all the direct applications of OT quotes in which YHWH was referenced, segregating them on the basis of whether they’re applied to the Father or Yahshua, and see what the split is. You might be surprised…..

Quote

(Titus 2:13 is disputed. Hebrews 1:8 does not explicitly reference Yashua and is a quote of Psalm 45, which takes on different meaning in the context of the Psalm.  John 1:1 is about the “word”, not explicitly about Yashua the man, as you have pointed out elsewhere.  And John 20:28, is an exclamation uttered to Yashua but may have been only partly addressed to him, [reference 1 Corinthians 8:6].)

Hang on WIT, a few lines back you wrote this statement:

“I count only four verses in three books of the NT that call Jesus “God”“ [emphasis mine]

And now it seems you trying to disprove your own statement. Either the verses call Jesus God or they don’t. Which is it? I don’t believe the statement you made was a slip up, I think you know that the verses do call Jesus God, but this blatant incompatibility with your current Christology won’t let you go there….

Quote

(Titus 2:13 is disputed.

I’m genuinely surprised you would use this argument WIT…..

“Titus 2:13 is disputed”?? Well yeah. And….

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 31 2006,18:56)

ADDENDUM (to my last post): Is 1:18 wrote: Quote …you and I both know that it’s not possible to make absolutely dogmatic assertions about the true meaning of the references to the  “One God” where it’s not abundantly clear whether Yahshua or The Father is the subject. There is no verse in the Bible that explicitly states that God is a uni-personal or a multi-personal being, so it’s not possible to categorically prove it one way or the other, from the verses alone. … Actually, there is one verse that identifies the One God as a “uni-personal” being: 1 Corinthians 8:6 reads: “…for us there is one God, the Father … .” Paul is making a doctrinal statement here in which he defines the One God as the Father for believers. Can you imagine a trinitarian uttering those words?  For a trinitarian, there is one god, the father, son, and holy spirit.  Yet, for Paul, there is simply One God, the Father. Why does Paul's doctrinal statement seem completely unlike something a trinitarian would profess?

He he. Nice try WIT. It's implicit at best, not explicit. The word 'person' is not even mentioned in the verse. And as i've already mentioned 'kurios' is frequently applied to the Father and 'theos' is several times applied to the Son. Furthermore, if 1 Cor 8:6 was designed to teach us that the Father is exclusively “our God”, then I guess no one told Thomas. Jesus was his God. Or Peter (2 Pet 1:1), or John (John 1:1…)….and even Paul didn't consistently live this precept out either, since he instructed others that they should be “looking for the blessed hope and the apparing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus”….

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Does trinity theory teach that the three persons in the one God are actually individual deities or three united into one?
A god can have several meanings but surely a deity indicates a god who is worshipped?
A deity is a god in any language so is this matter of deity indicating a separate godliness?
If they all are individual deities how is there one God?
How can each be individual deities and yet be one God?
Are they then meant to be worshiped separately?
If a deity is a god then does that not make three gods?
Surely a deity is a being with separate life at least?
Should we worship more than one deity?
How would worshipping another deity not be polytheism?
Should churches encourage equal individual worship for three or not?
Are they each entitled to individual worship but they each refuse it alone?
Or do they have personal individual deity each person but be worshiped as a trinity?
Do you know any prayers designed to be addressed to a trinity?
If they are individual deities then do they have three separate thrones?
Do they have separate divine natures as individual deities?
Is deity just a title or does it signify just deserving of individual worship?
Do you say he “has deity” rather than is a deity?
How does a being have deity without actually being a deity??
Can a king have kingship without being a king?
Or can a man have manhood without being a man?
Deity is not surely a title but a statement about being a god?
Should any order of worship for three deities be followed?
Is individual deity of three persons shown in heaven?
Or is the Son just a separate deity when on earth?
If deities are worshiped then where is the Spirit worshipped in scripture?
Did Jesus ever say he or the Spirit was a deity?
Who is the fulness of deity “in Christ” if he is a deity?
Does Lordship under God interfere with being a deity or not?
Can a deity have a deity?

I just see more and more confusion in this concept.

[Woutlaw]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2006,10:12)

Hi Is 1.18, Does trinity theory teach that the three persons in the one God are actually individual deities or three united into one? A god can have several meanings but surely a deity indicates a god who is worshipped? A deity is a god in any language so is this matter of deity indicating a separate godliness? If they all are individual deities how is there one God? How can each be individual deities and yet be one God? Are they then meant to be worshiped separately? If a deity is a god then does that not make three gods? Surely a deity is a being with separate life at least? Should we worship more than one deity? How would worshipping another deity not be polytheism? Should churches encourage equal individual worship for three or not? Are they each entitled to individual worship but they each refuse it alone? Or do they have personal individual deity each person but be worshiped as a trinity? Do you know any prayers designed to be addressed to a trinity? If they are individual deities then do they have three separate thrones? Do they have separate divine natures as individual deities? Is deity just a title or does it signify just deserving of individual worship? Do you say he “has deity” rather than is a deity? How does a being have deity without actually being a deity?? Can a king have kingship without being a king? Or can a man have manhood without being a man? Deity is not surely a title but a statement about being a god? Should any order of worship for three deities be followed? Is individual deity of three persons shown in heaven? Or is the Son just a separate deity when on earth? If deities are worshiped then where is the Spirit worshipped in scripture? Did Jesus ever say he or the Spirit was a deity? Who is the fulness of deity “in Christ” if he is a deity? Does Lordship under God interfere with being a deity or not? Can a deity have a deity? I just see more and more confusion in this concept.

Amen Nick,

Folly begets folly. Trinitarians say that the Godhead is a mystery. The bible says it's not, Romans 1:20. Who are we gonna believe????

[WhatIsTrue]

Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

Hi WIT, In addressing a lot of points you raised in your post I would just be recycling and emphasising previous statements I have made. I don't think arguing in circles is going to be productive for either of us, and I have said all I think I need to, so I’ll leave those matters as they are…

Agreed.  We can get off the merry-go-round as you suggest.  However, there are a couple of issues that you brought up in your last post that I must address first.

Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

And besides, you're completely ignoring the inferential evidence for the deity of Yahshua, which IMHO is substantial. The NT writers showed no hesitancy in applying to Yahshua Old Testament descriptions and privileges that are reserved specifically for YHWH. Actually, here is an interesting exercise if ever you have the time or inclination, go through the NT and try and collate all the direct applications of OT quotes in which YHWH was referenced, segregating them on the basis of whether they’re applied to the Father or Yahshua, and see what the split is. You might be surprised…..

As you well know, what you infer from one scripture depends greatly on your understanding of other scriptures.  I know the framework from which you operate: you believe that Yahshua is God and that several scriptures “explicitly” say so.  However, I am not sure that you completely understand the framework from which I operate.  I think that it will help you better understand my position if I explain it briefly.

There are several people who came before Messiah who were archetypes in some way or another of the Messiah to come.  David is clearly one.  So is Solomon, Joshua, Moses, Joseph, etc..  Each one of them helps to show us a little bit about the Messiah that YHWH had planned from the beginning.  Let's take a look at a couple of the things said about two of them, Moses and Joseph.

Of Moses it is said:

Quote

Exodus 4:16 “So he[Aaron] shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God.” Exodus 7:1 “So the LORD said to Moses: 'See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.'”

Here we see YHWH saying that Moses is “as God” to Aaron, to Pharaoh, and by extension, to the people under Pharaoh and Aaron.  Moses is not God, but he appears to them to be because of the things that he does and the authority that he has.

Moses speaking says:

Quote

Exodus 18: “15 [YHWH] your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of [YHWH] your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of [YHWH] my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ 17 And [YHWH] said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good.'”

Here we see that the Prophet to come was to be like Moses in that he would speak for YHWH to the people.  He would be “as [YHWH]” to them.

As for Joseph:

Quote

Genesis 42: “39 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, 'Inasmuch as God has shown you all this, there is no one as discerning and wise as you. 40 You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you.' 41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, 'See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.' 42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring off his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand; and he clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. 43 And he had him ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried out before him, 'Bow the knee!' So he set him over all the land of Egypt. 44 Pharaoh also said to Joseph, 'I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.””

Here we have a great parallel to the images found in Daniel and Revelation, where the Most Powerful One delegates all of His authority to another.

Now, skip ahead to Yashua's day, and hear what he has to say about himself:

Quote

Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.'”

Yahshua is the recipient of YHWH's delegation of authority and power.  Yahshua is not the source of that authority and power! It was given to him.

Where you look at scripture and infer deity, I look at scripture and see delegation.  It's all a matter of perspective.

(This could easily be a whole thread by itself, but I am just giving you my framework here.)

Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

Hang on WIT, a few lines back you wrote this statement: “I count only four verses in three books of the NT that call Jesus “God”“ [emphasis mine] And now it seems you trying to disprove your own statement. Either the verses call Jesus God or they don’t. Which is it? I don’t believe the statement you made was a slip up, I think you know that the verses do call Jesus God, but this blatant incompatibility with your current Christology won’t let you go there….

I am really not sure why you even brought this up given that the answer to your question lay in the part of the sentence that you left out.  Here is the entire sentence that I wrote:

“Assuming that your assertion here is correct, (which I obviously do not believe personally), I count only four verses in three books of the NT that call Jesus 'God'.”

I am not sure that I could have been any clearer that I did not personally believe that any of the verses that you listed called Yahshua God.  I was allowing for your presupposition and commenting based on that.  Then, I went on to give my own opinion.

Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

I’m genuinely surprised you would use this argument WIT….. “Titus 2:13 is disputed”?? Well yeah. And…. Evolutionists “dispute” the Christian notion of creationism – does their objection invalidate it? Atheists “dispute” the existence of God – does their objection invalidate it? Some people, even today, “dispute” the sphericity of Earth – does their objection invalidate it? The fact that something is disputed means precisely nothing WIT. I would think that the correct interpretation of nearly every verse in the Bible has been contested at one time or another. And yes the prooftexts for Jesus’ deity are constantly debated. It’s hardly surprising given the investment in refuting the belief that Jesus is God by some sectors. Whether or not their lexical arguments are credible relative to the trinitarian ones is another matter entirely…..

Now here is an instance where I was actually quite unclear.  It was never my intention to go through all the reasons why I don't believe that your particular prooftexts say that Yahshua is God.  I only meant to give you an indication that I did not see them the way that you do.  Allow me to clear up my statement about Titus 2:13.

What I meant to say is that not all scholars agree on the translation of this verse.  The translation that you use is likely this:

“…while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ … .”

Other translations, including the NASB and the YLT, have it this way:

“…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus… .”

One translation makes Yahshua into the “great God and Savior” while the other shows him as “the glory of our great God and Savior”.

I am pretty sure I know which one you prefer.

As for the other verses, I will simply answer the questions that you put directly to me.  If you really want me to expand on any particular prooftext, just ask.

Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

It’s far more important to look at the context that the NT writers put quote into, than the context of the passage it came from. Or do you know more about the TRUE context of Psalm 45:6 than the writer of Hebrews?

On this, we clearly disagree.  I don't believe that you can divorce a scripture from its context.  Otherwise, you can make scripture say pretty much anything.  I believe that to understand the intentions of the NT writers you must understand the passages from which they pulled their quotes.  The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to see if what they were being taught was true.  The scriptures that they searched were the OT.  NT writings are to be judged by whether or not they harmonize with the OT, not the other way around (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, Isaiah 8:20).

Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

A question for you – if the Word is a non-person, why does John ascribe the noun “theos” to it?

To be completely facetious –   – I will answer your question with a question:

If “wisdom” and “prudence” aren't people, why do they live together, (Proverbs 8:12)?

Seriously, John 1:1-14, (aside from the interjection about John the Baptist), is in poetic form.  It is not a dry doctrinal statement.

Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

Quote And John 20:28, is an exclamation uttered to Yashua but may have been only partly addressed to him, [reference 1 Corinthians 8:6].) Interesting. But I see nothing in the context to indicate a double address, can you explain to me exactly what in the context would suggest this?

It is not uncommon in scripture for people to address YHWH's representatives as YHWH Himself, especially angels.  A great example of this is Moses' discourse with the angel at the burning bush.  (Stephen clearly identifies this being as “an angel” in Acts 7:30.)  Messiah's resurrection proved to Thomas beyond any doubt that Yahshua was YHWH's greatest representative.  It is not out of the question that he would praise both his Lord and his God through Yahshua.  

That, by the way, is where 1 Corinthians 8:6 comes in.  For us, there is One God, (i.e. One Almighty), and one Lord, (i.e. one divinely chosen ruler).  Thomas understood that.

Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

He he. Nice try WIT. It's implicit at best, not explicit. The word 'person' is not even mentioned in the verse. And as i've already mentioned 'kurios' is frequently applied to the Father and 'theos' is several times applied to the Son. Furthermore, if 1 Cor 8:6 was designed to teach us that the Father is exclusively “our God”, then I guess no one told Thomas. Jesus was his God. Or Peter (2 Pet 1:1), or John (John 1:1…)….and even Paul didn't consistently live this precept out either, since he instructed others that they should be “looking for the blessed hope and the apparing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus”….

Great.  Then can you tell me what 1 Corinthians 8:6 is really saying?  [Note: In order to get us off the merry-go-round, I will not comment on your answer to this sincere question, unless you bring up a completely new issue in your answer.  It's tough not to comment sometimes!]

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
Compare Gen 42.42 above with Lk 15.22f
“The Father said to him
'Quickly, bring out the best robe and put it on him
and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet..”.”

'

[Is 1:18]

Hi WIT,
Just wanted to let you know that I noticed your post and will respond in the near future….

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Woutlaw @ June 02 2006,16:08)

Folly begets folly. Trinitarians say that the Godhead is a mystery. The bible says it's not, Romans 1:20. Who are we gonna believe????

Hi Woutlaw,
Its funny the way you do that, strongly reminds me of the school bully's side kick who stands behind him in confrontations with others, and casts insults…..

I am wondering if you would allow me to test the soundness of your christological beliefs Woutlaw? Others have been less than forthcoming with direct answers to some questions of mine, but i'm hoping you might be more obliging…..

Interested?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Who is the school bully?
Or is it the Word that causes pain?
If I have caused pain I apologise.

Do you accept that the relationship between the Pharaoh and Joseph is a type for that between the Father and the Son?

If so then in terms of human government in Egypt;

Was Joseph always equal with the Pharaoh?
Did he obtain functional equality in authority?
Was he given functional equality in authority?
Did he receive the respect due to the Pharaoh ?
Was he given that equivalent respect by the Pharaoh?
Was the Pharaoh always, however, the head of Joseph?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2006,09:52)

The word 'person' is not even mentioned in the verse.

Hi,
Are there verses that say God is a person?
Are there any that say the Father is a person?
Are there verses that say Jesus is a person?
Are there verses that say the Spirit is a person?
Are there verses that say there are three persons in one God.

None
Never

So what do you mean about verses about God with person in them?

Perhaps it is only in a human theological view of God you would find them?

[Woutlaw]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 02 2006,21:08)

Is 1:18 wrote: Quote Hi WIT, In addressing a lot of points you raised in your post I would just be recycling and emphasising previous statements I have made. I don't think arguing in circles is going to be productive for either of us, and I have said all I think I need to, so I’ll leave those matters as they are… Agreed.  We can get off the merry-go-round as you suggest.  However, there are a couple of issues that you brought up in your last post that I must address first. Is 1:18 wrote: Quote And besides, you're completely ignoring the inferential evidence for the deity of Yahshua, which IMHO is substantial. The NT writers showed no hesitancy in applying to Yahshua Old Testament descriptions and privileges that are reserved specifically for YHWH. Actually, here is an interesting exercise if ever you have the time or inclination, go through the NT and try and collate all the direct applications of OT quotes in which YHWH was referenced, segregating them on the basis of whether they’re applied to the Father or Yahshua, and see what the split is. You might be surprised….. As you well know, what you infer from one scripture depends greatly on your understanding of other scriptures.  I know the framework from which you operate: you believe that Yahshua is God and that several scriptures “explicitly” say so.  However, I am not sure that you completely understand the framework from which I operate.  I think that it will help you better understand my position if I explain it briefly. There are several people who came before Messiah who were archetypes in some way or another of the Messiah to come.  David is clearly one.  So is Solomon, Joshua, Moses, Joseph, etc..  Each one of them helps to show us a little bit about the Messiah that YHWH had planned from the beginning.  Let's take a look at a couple of the things said about two of them, Moses and Joseph. Of Moses it is said: Quote Exodus 4:16 “So he[Aaron] shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God.” Exodus 7:1 “So the LORD said to Moses: 'See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.'” Here we see YHWH saying that Moses is “as God” to Aaron, to Pharaoh, and by extension, to the people under Pharaoh and Aaron.  Moses is not God, but he appears to them to be because of the things that he does and the authority that he has. Moses speaking says: Quote Exodus 18: “15 [YHWH] your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of [YHWH] your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of [YHWH] my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ 17 And [YHWH] said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good.'” Here we see that the Prophet to come was to be like Moses in that he would speak for YHWH to the people.  He would be “as [YHWH]” to them. As for Joseph: Quote Genesis 42: “39 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, 'Inasmuch as God has shown you all this, there is no one as discerning and wise as you. 40 You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you.' 41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, 'See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.' 42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring off his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand; and he clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. 43 And he had him ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried out before him, 'Bow the knee!' So he set him over all the land of Egypt. 44 Pharaoh also said to Joseph, 'I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.”” Here we have a great parallel to the images found in Daniel and Revelation, where the Most Powerful One delegates all of His authority to another. Now, skip ahead to Yashua's day, and hear what he has to say about himself: Quote Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.'” Yahshua is the recipient of YHWH's delegation of authority and power.  Yahshua is not the source of that authority and power!  It was given to him. Where you look at scripture and infer deity, I look at scripture and see delegation.  It's all a matter of perspective. (This could easily be a whole thread by itself, but I am just giving you my framework here.) Is 1:18 wrote: Quote Hang on WIT, a few lines back you wrote this statement: “I count only four verses in three books of the NT that call Jesus “God”“ [emphasis mine] And now it seems you trying to disprove your own statement. Either the verses call Jesus God or they don’t. Which is it? I don’t believe the statement you made was a slip up, I think you know that the verses do call Jesus God, but this blatant incompatibility with your current Christology won’t let you go there…. I am really not sure why you even brought this up given that the answer to your question lay in the part of the sentence that you left out.  Here is the entire sentence that I wrote: “Assuming that your assertion here is correct, (which I obviously do not believe personally), I count only four verses in three books of the NT that call Jesus 'God'.” I am not sure that I could have been any clearer that I did not personally believe that any of the verses that you listed called Yahshua God.  I was allowing for your presupposition and commenting based on that.  Then, I went on to give my own opinion. Is 1:18 wrote: Quote I’m genuinely surprised you would use this argument WIT….. “Titus 2:13 is disputed”?? Well yeah. And…. Evolutionists “dispute” the Christian notion o f creationism – does their objection invalidate it? Atheists “dispute” the existence of God – does their objection invalidate it? Some people, even today, “dispute” the sphericity of Earth – does their objection invalidate it? The fact that something is disputed means precisely nothing WIT. I would think that the correct interpretation of nearly every verse in the Bible has been contested at one time or another. And yes the prooftexts for Jesus’ deity are constantly debated. It’s hardly surprising given the investment in refuting the belief that Jesus is God by some sectors. Whether or not their lexical arguments are credible relative to the trinitarian ones is another matter entirely….. Now here is an instance where I was actually quite unclear.  It was never my intention to go through all the reasons why I don't believe that your particular prooftexts say that Yahshua is God.  I only meant to give you an indication that I did not see them the way that you do.  Allow me to clear up my statement about Titus 2:13. What I meant to say is that not all scholars agree on the translation of this verse.  The translation that you use is likely this: “…while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ … .” Other translations, including the NASB and the YLT, have it this way: “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus… .” One translation makes Yahshua into the “great God and Savior” while the other shows him as “the glory of our great God and Savior”. I am pretty sure I know which one you prefer. As for the other verses, I will simply answer the questions that you put directly to me.  If you really want me to expand on any particular prooftext, just ask. Is 1:18 wrote: Quote It’s far more important to look at the context that the NT writers put quote into, than the context of the passage it came from. Or do you know more about the TRUE context of Psalm 45:6 than the writer of Hebrews? On this, we clearly disagree.  I don't believe that you can divorce a scripture from its context.  Otherwise, you can make scripture say pretty much anything.  I believe that to understand the intentions of the NT writers you must understand the passages from which they pulled their quotes.  The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to see if what they were being taught was true.  The scriptures that they searched were the OT.  NT writings are to be judged by whether or not they harmonize with the OT, not the other way around (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, Isaiah 8:20). Is 1:18 wrote: Quote A question for you – if the Word is a non-person, why does John ascribe the noun “theos” to it? To be completely facetious –   – I will answer your question with a question: If “wisdom” and “prudence” aren't people, why do they live together, (Proverbs 8:12)? Seriously, John 1:1-14, (aside from the interjection about John the Baptist), is in poetic form.  It is not a dry doctrinal statement. Is 1:18 wrote: Quote Quote And John 20:28, is an exclamation uttered to Yashua but may have been only partly addressed to him, [reference 1 Corinthians 8:6].) Interesting. But I see nothing in the context to indicate a double address, can you explain to me exactly what in the context would suggest this? It is not uncommon in scripture for people to address YHWH's representatives as YHWH Himself, especially angels.  A great example of this is Moses' discourse with the angel at the burning bush.  (Stephen clearly identifies this being as “an angel” in Acts 7:30.)  Messiah's resurrection proved to Thomas beyond any doubt that Yahshua was YHWH's greatest representative.  It is not out of the question that he would praise both his Lord and his God through Yahshua.   That, by the way, is where 1 Corinthians 8:6 comes in.  For us, there is One God, (i.e. One Almighty), and one Lord, (i.e. one divinely chosen ruler).  Thomas understood that. Is 1:18 wrote: Quote He he. Nice try WIT. It's implicit at best, not explicit. The word 'person' is not even mentioned in the verse. And as i've already mentioned 'kurios' is frequently applied to the Father and 'theos' is several times applied to the Son. Furthermore, if 1 Cor 8:6 was designed to teach us that the Father is exclusively “our God”, then I guess no one told Thomas. Jesus was his God. Or Peter (2 Pet 1:1), or John (John 1:1…)….and even Paul didn't consistently live this precept out either, since he instructed others that they should be “looking for the blessed hope and the apparing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus”…. Great.  Then can you tell me what 1 Corinthians 8:6 is really saying?  [Note: In order to get us off the merry-go-round, I will not comment on your answer to this sincere question, unless you bring up a completely new issue in your answer.  It's tough not to comment sometimes!]

All I can say is wow Whatistrue. surely you have been led by the Holy Spirit. because all of what you said is TRUTH. May God continue to use you to open the eyes of many.

God bless you brother.

[Woutlaw]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 03 2006,00:56)

Quote (Woutlaw @ June 02 2006,16:08) Folly begets folly. Trinitarians say that the Godhead is a mystery. The bible says it's not, Romans 1:20. Who are we gonna believe???? Hi Woutlaw, Its funny the way you do that, strongly reminds me of the school bully's side kick who stands behind him in confrontations with others, and casts insults….. I am wondering if you would allow me to test the soundness of your christological beliefs Woutlaw? Others have been less than forthcoming with direct answers to some questions of mine, but i'm hoping you might be more obliging….. Interested?

i'm no bully's side kick, just one who has cried out to the Father for the truth. He has shown me that and I will hold fast to it and defend it with my life. I would welcome any of your questions IS 1:18.

[Is 1:18]

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i'm no bully's side kick, just one who has cried out to the Father for the truth. He has shown me that and I will hold fast to it and defend it with my life.

No offense Woutlaw, It was just the way you always seem to be chiming in after someone elses attempted refutation of trinitarianism (or any aspect of it) with a comment of your own, often of an antagonistic nature. It reminded me of the kid in every school that stand's and delivers a verbal barrage from the relative safety of the bully's back. BTW, I wasn't inferring that I felt bullied here – it was purely a comment on your modus operandi.

But while you seem very willing to deliver your considered opinion on the “faultiness” of the trinity doctrine, I don't think I have ever seen you expose your own christology to scrutiny. It's fine to cast dispersions of the beliefs of others if you are prepared to have the integrity of your own tested….

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I would welcome any of your questions IS 1:18.

Great. Thank you for the opportunity. Can I have specific, biblically-based and direct answers for the following q/ns:

1. Did Yahshua pre-exist His incarnation?

2. Was He involved in creation of 'all things'. If so, in what (general) capacity?

3. Was He a lower class of being than His Father?

4. If the answer to the last question was yes – what kind of being was He?

5. When was He begotten (before or after incarnation)?

6. What does it mean to you that the Father is 'greater'?

7. Is Yahshua called 'God' in the Bible.

8. What do you understand “fullness of deity” (Col 2:9) to mean?

I'll have some follow up questions too, if that's okay. Thanks Woutlaw, appreciate you offering your time and effort on this.

Blessings

[Proclaimer]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 05 2006,22:58)

True, true Rev 22 is often used to support the idea that Jesus is co-equal, supposedly the Throne of God and the Lamb is proof of this. I would venture to say that it is a joint throne but not co-equality.

True true true.

Yes if Jesus were equal to God because he is seated on the Fathers throne, then we are equal to Christ.
As it is written:

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

So it appears that God shares his throne with his son, and the son shares his throne with those who overcome.

So just as overcomers are not Christ, Christ is not God.

But even if Jesus were equal to God, then even that doesn't prove that he is God. To be equal to something is the same as saying that you are not that thing.

E.g., (2+7)=(3+4). They are not the same just because they add up to the same number.

5 apples = 20c. They too are not the same thing.

(God)=(Jesus). In this case they are still not the same.

They are clearly 2 different identies. Jesus is like God because he came from God. He is God's image. This is what scripture teaches us. So let us teach scripture.

Amen.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 04 2006,03:51)

Quote i'm no bully's side kick, just one who has cried out to the Father for the truth. He has shown me that and I will hold fast to it and defend it with my life. No offense Woutlaw, It was just the way you always seem to be chiming in after someone elses attempted refutation of trinitarianism (or any aspect of it) with a comment of your own, often of an antagonistic nature. It reminded me of the kid in every school that stand's and delivers a verbal barrage from the relative safety of the bully's back. BTW, I wasn't inferring that I felt bullied here – it was purely a comment on your modus operandi. But while you seem very willing to deliver your considered opinion on the “faultiness” of the trinity doctrine, I don't think I have ever seen you expose your own christology to scrutiny. It's fine to cast dispersions of the beliefs of others if you are prepared to have the integrity of your own tested…. Quote I would welcome any of your questions IS 1:18. Great. Thank you for the opportunity. Can I have specific, biblically-based and direct answers for the following q/ns: 1. Did Yahshua pre-exist His incarnation? 2. Was He involved in creation of 'all things'. If so, in what (general) capacity? 3. Was He a lower class of being than His Father? 4. If the answer to the last question was yes – what kind of being was He? 5. When was He begotten (before or after incarnation)? 6. What does it mean to you that the Father is 'greater'? 7. Is Yahshua called 'God' in the Bible. 8. What do you understand “fullness of deity” (Col 2:9) to mean? I'll have some follow up questions too, if that's okay. Thanks Woutlaw, appreciate you offering your time and effort on this. Blessings

No offense Is 1:18, But you always seem to be chiming in after someone teaches truth by making an opposite comment often of an antagonistic nature. You remind me of the kid in every school that stand's and delivers a verbal barrage whenever someone has something good to say.

What Woutlaw is doing is called encouragement. That is an absolute valid thing to do and we all need it from time to time when confronted by ignoramuses.

Are we to abandon truth, scripture, and logic to follow you?
Or shall we allow the Spirit and scripture to guide us. If we choose the second option, then encouraging such people is what we should be doing. Why? Because every truth spoken by men is a victory against evil and the Kingdom of Darkness.

Blessings.

[malcolm ferris]

Hi Is1:18

Before I look at 8 burning questions you pose – and JMTCW about them
I have a question of my own for you or anyone out there.

Was Jesus in his earthly life ever called God before he began his ministry after John baptized him on the river Jordan?

Okay

1. Did Yahshua pre-exist His incarnation?

Yes

2. Was He involved in creation of 'all things'. If so, in what (general) capacity?

God made all things BY him, even as God redeemed all things BY him.

3. Was He a lower class of being than His Father?

Is a son of a human a lower class of being than his father? Or is he simply in a lesser status as a child and through until maturity. Also – does the father pre-date the father?
Any son of any being is the same life as his father, yet is in a condition bodily (at least as far as earthly physical creatures are concerned) that is weaker than his parent and dependant until maturity, upon his parent for protection, nurture etc. Also the son holds a status commensurate to this bodily condition. (Gal 4:1-3)

4. If the answer to the last question was yes – what kind of being was He?

Answer was no so disregarding it.

5. When was He begotten (before or after incarnation)?

Before – he could not have had a glory with his Father before the foundation of the world if he had not been begotten. (Jn 17:5)

6. What does it mean to you that the Father is 'greater'?

Simply that He alone has a will and purpose for all of His family and for creation which He made for them to enjoy with Him.

7. Is Yahshua called 'God' in the Bible.

Even prophets are called 'Messiah' and gods – on the basis that in the shadow of the old testament they were a pre-figure of the relationship of Father and Son that was to be revealed in the new testament in Jesus Christ. (Heb 1:1-3)

8. What do you understand “fullness of deity” (Col 2:9) to mean?

Jesus explains it thus:

JOHN 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Even as when God spoke in (and therefore through) His servants the prophets – it was called the Voice of God – they heard the Word of God. They knew the God whom you could not otherwise know, saw him in His declared will and purpose.

So that’s JMTCW

[Cubes]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 03 2006,19:44)

3. Was He a lower class of being than His Father? Is a son of a human a lower class of being than his father? Or is he simply in a lesser status as a child and through until maturity. Also – does the father pre-date the father? Any son of any being is the same life as his father, yet is in a condition bodily (at least as far as earthly physical creatures are concerned) that is weaker than his parent and dependant until maturity, upon his parent for protection, nurture etc. Also the son holds a status commensurate to this bodily condition. (Gal 4:1-3)

Hi Malcolm:

I felt to comment on this portion, to add I hope and not to detract to what you are saying, though feel free to correct me or clarify if I've gotten you wrong.  

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father… we know that in his particular case, he was concieved of the holy spirit so that would make God his literal Father.  

On the other hand, we are also born again of this very same spirit of the Father and time does not permit me to post a few scriptures to that end right now but I hope to in the coming days.

My point here is that:  Christ has the preemminence in all things but we that are in him are all born of the SAME Spirit of God genetically, thus he DOES NOT have a likeness to God which we CANNOT also partake of when born again, except that he has preemminence in all things and is the firstfruits.  Does that make sense?

When I say “except that…” I am aware that I can't grasp the greatness and awesomeness of that state fully but I do know that it is such that all creatures in the universe would bow to him and acknowledge him as Lord and that is no small exception!.  Essentially, however, we are his brethren because we have the SAME Father and so the SAME genetics of the Spirit birth and parentage by God's grace!

[Cubes]

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My point here is that: Christ has the preemminence in all things but we that are in him are all born of the SAME Spirit of God genetically, thus he DOES NOT have a likeness to God which we CANNOT also partake of when born again, except that he has preemminence in all things and is the firstfruits. Does that make sense?

I thought to post a few scriptures to validate my above post now:

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 16:26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. …1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

If we are earthy as Adam, then as Christ, we become heavenly because the two are the prototypes which we are fashioned after.

Blessings.

[Proclaimer]

Amen Cubes.

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 03 2006,13:51)

3. Was He a lower class of being than His Father? 4. If the answer to the last question was yes – what kind of being was He?

Hi Is:

A couple more scriptures that came to mind… :

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Col 2:9 For IN HIM DWELLS ALL THE FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, WHO IS THE HEAD of all principality and power.

The previous verses which I quoted prior also tell us that God dwells in US. The Fullness of God dwells in Christ who is the head of us…

Thus as Christ is to the Father genetically, so are we that have eternal life from the Father THROUGH him.

Oh and you asked: “What kind of being was He?”
What kind of being are we going to become when we see him as he is (for that is what we too shall be by God's grace)? Suggestions: heavenly, spirit, incorruptible. The fruit of which he is firstfruits As he is, so shall we be. If he is as the Father, then so shall we be for we are brethren.

My warmest regards.

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