- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi Malcolm, I enjoyed reading and replying to your post as usual. Hope this finds you well…..
Quote True the rebirth gives us that. But we are told that the fullness of Godhead dwelt in him, we have the same Spirit by measure that he had without measure.
1. Does “theotes” equate to “spirit”?
2. Are men every said to be indwelt by “theotes”
3. Any evidence attesting to the fact that God gives us less than a full measure of His Spirit? (and what part measure does He give us?)Quote David was called the King of Israel – who is the King of Israel? Isn't that a title of God also?
The word King has a broad application, and can of course be used to designate an ‘earthly’ Monarch. Israel is a country on Earth. Is it surprising that David would be given this title? I have to be honest and say that I find this a weak counter-argument (counter-point of discussion).Quote When Jesus said 'destroy this temple and I will raise it up again', who was speaking? Who raised Jesus from the grave? My bible tells me it was God who did! Yet Jesus said 'I'…
John 2:18-21 (KJV)
18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21But he spake of the temple of his body.Jesus planly claimed to raise up the temple of His body. There is nothing in the context of this passage that would suggest that it was the Father speaking through him. It seems to be that you are simply imposing your preconception that Yahshua isn't God onto the verse. But He is explicitly called 'Theos' many times in Scripture (and by the Father in Heb 1:8!), so yes God did do the raising. It's not a contradiction.
Quote This is a good question how do you tell when it was God and when it was Jesus? Well considering that Jesus aligned his will to God's in such perfection, I just assume it is God unless it states otherwise.
Can you give me a good reason why we should assume that it’s the Father vocalizing unless the context suggests otherwise?Quote This is referring to Melchizedek – who is said to have no beginning of days or ending of life, therefore it is God and not the Son as sons have beginnings. When Jesus spoke he made it pretty clear he was saying what the Father showed him to say.
Hebrews 3:7
3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.I think the writer of Hebrews was using the 'eternality' of the “Son of God”, a title derived from Daniel 7:13, as an illustration of the perpetuity of Melchizedek’s priesthood. I think the “having neither beginning of days “ is a reference to Yahshua’s pre-incarnate origin (or lack of it). Melchizadec, after all, must have had a beginning of days. He was a man, as the next verse bears out:
Hebrews 3:7
4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.Quote Obviously when we see him saying things like 'forgive them Father' or 'Father glorify me with the glory I had with you …' we can see it is the son speaking in these instances.
So every word spoken by Jesus that affirms His humanity was ‘Him’ speaking by His own volition, and the words that implied deity were actually His ‘Father’ speaking directly through Him. That’s very convenient Malcolm. Can you offer me any evidence to verify that this is the correct way to read the Gospel narratives?Quote You only need to consider Jesus' own words when he explains about the great white throne judgement – in which he explained that when the one approaching the throne had visited one of the saints that was sick they had done it to him (Jesus) why? Because we are his body. Jesus was the body for God, we are told God died for us, God cannot die, He is eternal, yet Jesus was the blood of God, the one in whom God was well pleased (to dwell in).
God is our saviour, how? Through Jesus Christ.
None of this addresses the fact that, according to John, when the soldier “pierced His side” in John 19 vs 34 it was a fulfillment of a scripture that YHWH made of Himself in Zech 12:10. Who’s lifeless body did “they” “look upon” Malcolm?Quote Jesus was the channel through which God created all things. God chose to do it this way.
Okay, I accept that. God created THROUGH or BY Jesus. No problem so far…But, look at this verse:
HEBREW 1:10
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine handsThe writer of Hebrews precisely explicates The Logo's involvement in the Creation event by quoting Psalm 102:25, and applying it to Him. However……Psalm 102:25 was written in exclusive reference to the Most High God, YHWH.
Psalm 102:22-27
22When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. 23He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days. 24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. 25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no endThe writer of Hebrews unequivocally tells us that it was by the Logo’s hands (an idiom designating ‘work’) that the worlds were made. It shows that the pre-incarnate logos was the actual executor of the creation event, and IS YHWH. According to the writer it is the Father Himself who personally addresses His Son as THE Creator of the cosmos!
These OT applications of YHWH to Jesus are quite ubiquitous in the NT; e.g. 1 Pet. 2:3 is nearly an exact quotation o
f Psalm 34:8, where “Lord” is YHWH. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that “the Lord” in vs 3 is Yahshua. Also, the text in 1 Pet. 3:14-15 is a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is YHWH.Quote He changes not
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever” (Heb 13:8)Quote at the end of the bible we find that a new heavens and a new earth are established in which God sits on a throne to rule it all. The throne of God and the Lamb. And His servants see him (not them – God is invisible). And worship him.
Can you please explain what you mean by: “And His servants see him (not them – God is invisible).”Quote Every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God that Father. So it is not too dissimilar to what Jesus said when asked by his disciples to show them the Father…
Here is another instance where an OT reference to YHWH is applied to Yahshua:Isaiah 25
22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD [YHWH] have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25In the LORD [YHWH] shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.Romans 14
9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.Isaiah 25:23-24 is also quoted and applied to the Father in Romans 14:9-12
So:
1. Isaiah, in Isaiah 25:23-24, prophesied that that every knee will bow to YHWH and every tongue will confess to YHWH.
2. Isaiah 25:23-24 is quoted and applied to both the Father and Jesus.
3. Therefore the name YHWH is applicable to both the Father and Son.Its just the sheer weight of the scriptural evidence Malcolm…….
Quote Hebrews 3:7
3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.I think the writer of Hebrews was using the 'eternality' of the “Son of God”, a title derived from Daniel 7:13, as an illustration of the perpetuity of Melchizedek’s priesthood. I think the “having neither beginning of days “ is a reference to Yahshua’s pre-incarnate origin (or lack of it). Melchizadec, after all, must have had a beginning of days. He was a man, as the next verse bears out:
Hebrews 3:7
4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Correction: the verses I quoted are Heb 7:3 and 7:4….D'oh – editing privileges sure would be handy at times…had to do some remedial work on this part too:
Here is another instance where an OT reference to YHWH is applied to Yahshua:
Isaiah 25
22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD [YHWH] have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25In the LORD [YHWH] shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.Romans 14
9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.Isaiah 25:23-24 is also quoted and applied to the 'the Lord' in Romans 14:9-12 but it is indisputably 'the Son' in Philippians 2:10
Phillipians 2
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.So its conclusive that:
1. Isaiah, in Isaiah 25:23-24, prophesied that that every knee will bow to YHWH and every tongue will confess to YHWH.
2. Isaiah 25:23-24 is quoted in the NT and applied to both the Father and Jesus.
3. Therefore the name YHWH is applicable to both the Father and Son.Hi Is 1.18,
Your God is too small. You seem to have reduced Him to be tiny, and as man, yet scripture tells us“even the highest heaven cannot contain Him”
He fits even into the garden of Eden, a place on earth, for you.
Was He not in heaven when Adam was formed on earth?
He is as small as the Son of God who did fit into a human form and walked the earth.Your God is too small.
Without meaning to you insult His Majesty.
Please be careful.You need to know his Might and fear Him to whom even the mighty Sun is but a miniscule example, one of the many Suns he has created. You need to feel as the Israelites did when they were terrified even to approach the mountain in Heb 12.13.
If Jesus says “no man has seen God” we need to start from that truth and work backwards to gain understanding, not seem to challenge his words. We are not scientists judging and weighing the words of God in our petty balances but servants grasping crumbs of knowledge from the table of God.
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
Take care my friend with these vital matters.Hi Nick,
I do not take what you say lightly and do not class this forum as some type of competition. I PERSONALLY believe that confusion occurs when we look at Jesus as the Son incarnate only and not of that which he has come.
I am impressed with your arguments they have tested my faith even to the boundaries.First I do NOT believe that Jesus is the Father like Oneness Pentecostals believe.
I believe the Son is in Father and the Father is in the Son, they are truly one.
I also believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and he is the only mediator between God and Man he performs this role as the Son incarnate.Here are my thoughts about the following scriptures.
Who proclaims the LORD here?
Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,The LORD stood with him there the LORD passed before him! Who is this that declares the LORD.
Joh 1:18 NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, HE HATH DECLARED HIM.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself who hath sent me hath given testimony of me: NEITHER HAVE YOU HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.
Who Humbled himself to behold heaven and earth!
Psa 113:5 Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high,
Psa 113:6 WHO HUMBLETH HIMSELF to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth!And as for John17:3 well yet again another great revelation.
Joh 17:3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
AMEN.
But keep reading.Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh 17:5 AND NOW GLORIFY THOU ME, O FATHER, WITH THYSELF, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, WITH THEE.Is this not UNITY IN ONE GOD?
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead CORPOREALLY.
CORPOREALLY G4985 σωματικῶς sōmatikōs so-mat-ee-koce'
Adverb from G4984; CORPOREALLY OR PHYSICALLY: – BODILY.The word was MADE flesh! Should we take the word for truth or should we try and add our own philosophy?
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man cheat you by PHILOSOPHY and vain deceit: ACCORDING TO THE TRADITION OF MEN according to the elements of the world and not according to Christ.
What testimony should we believe, the testimony of God or that of men?
1Jo 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, THE TESTIMONY OF GOD IS GREATER. For this is the testimony of God, which is greater, because he hath testified of his Son.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth in the Son of God hath the testimony of God in himself. He that believeth not the Son maketh him a liar: because he believeth not in the testimony which God hath testified of his Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony that God hath given to us eternal life. And this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life. He that hath not the Son hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things I write to you that you may know THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE: you who believe in the NAME OF THE SON OF GOD.THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD!
WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD?Phi 2:10 That at the NAME of JESUS EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, OF THINGS IN HEAVEN, AND THINGS IN EARTH, AND THINGS UNDER THE EARTH;
WHERE IS JESUS IN THE NEXT VERSE
Isa 45:23 I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That UNTO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE.“I am God and there is no one else” WHAT A GREAT TESTIMONY OF THE ONE GOD!
How many times does God have to say there is NO ONE ELSE!
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
Why is it that when God says there is NO OTHER Jesus is always revealed?
Isa 45:18 FOR THUS SAITH THE LORD THAT CREATED THE HEAVENS, God himself that formed the earth, and made it, the very maker thereof: he did not create it in vain: he formed it to be inhabited. I am the Lord, AND THERE IS NO OTHER.
That’s right there is NO OTHER but God the Father FROM WHOM and God the Son BY WHOM.
Deu 32:39 See ye that I ALONE AM, and THERE IS NO OTHER God besides me: I will kill and I will make to live: I will strike, and I will heal, AND THERE IS NONE THAT CAN DELIVER OUT OF MY HAND.
Deu 32:40 I will lift up my hand to heaven, AND I WILL SAY: I LIVE FOR EVER.THERE IS NO OTHER GOD! Yet again ANOTHER REVELATION.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice. And I know them: and they follow me.
Joh 10:28 And I GIVE THEM LIFE EVERLASTING: and they shall not perish for ever. AND NO MAN SHALL PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND.NONE shall puck them out of the Sons hand and none shall snatch them out of the Fathers hand. Does pluck and snatch not mean deliver out.
Joh 10:29 That which my Father hath given me is greater than all: and NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF THE HAND OF MY FATHER.
BUT THERE IS NO ONE ELSE HOW CAN THIS BE?
Let the NEXT VERSE reveal the word of Truth.Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.
The Father and the Son are ONE WHAT?
The first and the last the great I AM the Saviour redeemer the name above all and the name every knee in the universe will bow to.
The word of God has tested that there is no OTHER GOD BUT ONE.Where does the Son of God fit into the commandments if he does not belong to the greatest and first commandment of love! I am VERY interested to know.
Jesus is the Son BUT HE IS UNCREATED, in fact NOTHING was created without him.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him: AND WITHOUT HIM WAS MADE NOTHING THAT WAS MADE.
READ GENESIS AGAIN you can see that the Son is one with the Father, the one GOD, the great commandment.
Where is Jesus here?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning GOD CREATED heaven, and earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of GOD MOVED over the waters.
Gen 1:3 And GOD SAID: Be light made. And light was made.What does this verse REALLY say!
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said TO HIM: My Lord and my God.
HE SAID TO JESUS. [TO HIM] not my words but Gods words.
Joh 20:31 BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN, THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD: AND THAT BELIEVING, YOU MAY HAVE LIFE IN HIS NAME.
It would be VERY misleading for Gods Word to say TO HIM in this GREAT REVELATION of which then goes on to say that by believing you my have eternal life!
If the word of God was intended to say TO HIM and HIS Father. SHOULD WE ADD OUR OWN PHILOSOPHY to what the word of God really says?This would be like me calling you, MY friend and MY Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit lives in you.
Jesus did not correct Thomas when he called him God.
Likewise Jesus never corrected anyone for worshipping him. Why because Jesus is to be worshiped, unlike Peter who clearly rebukes such worship. Who was the greater teacher?Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Act 10:26 BUT PETER TOOK HIM UP, SAYING, STAND UP; I MYSELF ALSO AM A MAN.Phillip another true disciple had trouble
understanding who Jesus was, but yet he understand him as the one that the prophets wrote about. Still this true disciple did not understand him as the Creator of all things.Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph
Phillip even knew that HE WAS LORD. But he did not understand fully.
Joh 14:8 Philip SAITH TO HIM: LORD, shew us the Father; and it is enough for us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou: Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I AM IN THE FATHER and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe you not that I AM IN THE FATHER and the Father in me?Yet Jesus gives no warnings for us to see him as God!
It can get very puzzling if you try and work out who Jesus is by that which he humbled himself to do. This is because there is over one hundred titles for him as the incarnate Son.
Jesus humbled himself to become
The Good Shepherd, High Priest, King of the Jews, True Vine, Last Adam, Head of the Church, the Gate and the Lamb of God to name just a few.
Jesus performs all of these tasks.
We can find revelations of Jesus in the Old Testament that also reveal him as the humble one! This makes him appear not to be one with God because he has ALSO become the Son of Man the New Adam to complete the bridge between Man and God, only God WHO become man can complete this bridge, the Christ who is Emmanuel.But we need to look at who he was BEFORE he HUMBLED HIMSELF.
Is scripture talking about Jesus as the Son incarnate here the last Adam.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.What does it say about this last Adam?
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, EVEN THE FATHER; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.Col 3:11 Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. BUT CHRIST IS ALL AND IN ALL.
1Co 12:6 And there are DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, but it is the SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL.
Does not the Father reveal that the Sons throne is FOREVER when he reveals him as God?
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, IS FOR EVER AND EVER: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
What need is there for the Son to perform the tasks of the Gate, the Shepherd when all the flock have been lead in and the gate has been closed. Will Jesus not retire from this role as the Son of Man so that the One God can be ALL IN ALL.
Just because Jesus humbled himself to become the Last Adam is he not that which is also heavenly, the lord from heaven. Is he not also one with his father as the one true GOD.
Remember not only does scripture reveal Jesus as the Last Adam before saying God will be all in all it also reveals him as the last Adam after this statement, but it clarifies who this Last Adam will be!
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; THE LAST ADAM WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; AND AFTERWARD THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: THE SECOND MAN IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: AND AS IS THE HEAVENLY, SUCH ARE THEY ALSO THAT ARE HEAVENLY.Again Jesus has performed all of the tasks as the Son incarnate, the way, the gate, the Shepherd, the Last Adam etc and as the Son incarnate he has defeated death the last enemy. But we need to look at Jesus as the Son in essence to see the true glory he has with his Father.
We need to look at Jesus here!
Joh 1:1 …the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 …without him was made nothing that was made.
Again there are over one hundred titles for the tasks Jesus completes and fulfills as God made flesh after the scripture below!
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us….
Who can fully understand the Mystery of God, but he has left us with an example as we are created in his image, that being the family.
PLEASE note, the comparison I use has nothing to do with sexual organs that identify gender but the process of creation and life.
The Father the Man OF WHOM the SOURCE who gives unto the Mother the Woman BY WHOM and IN WHOM receives this life source creates a wonderful and fearfully made Child jointly with the source from the Father and her own chromosomes. This Child is born form Love that the Mother and Father share in unity. The Father doesn’t bear the pain of giving birth bringing the Child into the world. The Mother has become the Gate to life. The Woman is obedient to the Man just as the Child is obedient both to the Man and the Women. Of course God is uncreated and man is created so we need to look at the process and not the human weakness of this concept.
The word of God uses the same word to say the LORD is ONE as he says they TWO shall be ONE flesh.
ONE H259אחד'echâd ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; PROPERLY UNITED, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: – a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD:
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE flesh. [H259אחד'echâd ekh-awd']
Also note we are not meant to be left as individuals it says that the when the Man leaves his family he shall create his own family. The word Man he also implies the same of that which Women should do when she leaves her family.
It is the family that is created in the image of God and not the individual.
Gen 1:26 And GOD SAID, Let us make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS….
Gen 1:27 And God created man to HIS OWN IMAGE: to the image of God he created him: MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM.It was only when the Man and Women where two person but ONE flesh and knew good from evil that the LORD GOD SAID man has become ONE OF US.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as ONE OF US,
Why is it that God is revealed as more than one person but still ONE GOD both Gen 1:26 and Gen 3:22 when he talks about Man being made in his image and becoming like him?
Does this hidden Mystery not show who created all things?
Eph 3:8 To me, the least of all the saints, is given this grace, to preach among the Gentiles THE UNSEARCHABLE RICHES OF CHRIST:
Eph 3:9 And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the MYSTERY WHICH HATH BEEN HIDDEN FROM ETERNITY IN GOD WHO CREATED ALL THINGS:What a great Mystery
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of si
ns:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 FOR IN HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, WHETHER THRONES, OR DOMINATIONS, OR PRINCIPALITIES, OR POWERS. ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND IN HIM.BY HIM AND IN HIM!
Col 1:17 And he is before all: and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy:Did Jesus come from the ONE essence he had with his Father
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father and am come into the world: AGAIN I LEAVE THE WORLD AND I GO TO THE FATHER.Why are there no warnings about worshipping Jesus or calling him God or giving him the same glory as he has with the Father? Doesn’t it make you wonder why the greatest teacher the son incarnate wouldn’t warn us ESPECIALLY when he is revealed as God?
Why did the Jews kill Jesus?
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.Please show me scripture that shows we should not give Jesus the same Glory as the Father.
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, EVEN AS THEY HONOUR THE FATHER. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth MY WORD, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Whose Glory did Jesus have from the beginning? Joh 17:5What if Jesus is not one in the same God, will he judge us when for calling him God when he never has taught us not to call him God?
??Psa 94:1 O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself.
Psa 94:2 LIFT UP THYSELF, THOU JUDGE OF THE EARTH: render a reward to the proud.Joh 5:22 For THE FATHER JUDGETH NO MAN, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:30 Therefore I WILL JUDGE YOU, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.Who will Judge us?
???
Is this not yet again another revelation of the one GodNow what if Jesus is God, WHAT THEN? Is he not revealed many times as God!
Jesus is not a creature he is NOT from the dust HE IS FROM ABOVE!Why should we not cry out like Thomas, My Lord and My God!
I WILL LOVE JESUS WITH ALL MY HEART ALL MY SOUL AND ALL MY MIND!
Why shouldn’t I?
Deu 6:4 HEAR, O ISRAEL, THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD.
Joh 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.Jesus I trust in you!
Put all your trust in him he will not let you down!
God Bless
Sorry for the long post but I wanted to get all my thoughts across I have not used all the scriptures that reveal Jesus as God but I hope you see where I am coming from.
The Beloved Apostle John taught Ignatius of Antioch directly.
What did Ignatius call Jesus.“We have also as a Physician THE LORD OUR GOD, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin.” Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (A.D. 110).
Here are more writings that show the early Church Fathers called Jesus God.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_c….ition-IHi Is1:18
Good to hear from you
Once again good posting from you, I too enjoy our discussion and the learning involved in it.
Quote
1. Does “theotes” equate to “spirit”?
2. Are men every said to be indwelt by “theotes”
3. Any evidence attesting to the fact that God gives us less than a full measure of His Spirit? (and what part measure does He give us?)Good question – theotes : translated – godhead.
Jn 4:24 – God is A spirit – what kind of spirit? The Holy Spirit.
So you are correct the measure and fullness statement I made needs to be elaborated upon.
We receive OF His fullness – and really when you are speaking of God – its not a matter of quantity.
How does one quantify an eternal, infinite, omnipotent, omniscient being? Right?JOHN 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.EPHESIANS 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.One drop of the ocean contains all the elements of the entire ocean, the fulness of the ocean in that sense.
Yet it is not the full ocean. If you see what I mean?The drop of the ocean that we receive upon rebirth is the same Life, same Spirit in essence as the entire ocean.
Yet God is not an ocean or any vast quantity of any kind of resource, He is a person.So what does it mean therefore to have the fullness of the godhead dwelling in you?
To me it would mean to have the full person living in you.
When Jesus says 'It is not me that speaks but the words are my Father's that is dwelling in me' – then I do not understand that to mean it is the spirit of my Father in me that is saying what my Father would say if he were here.When Jesus said, If you see me you have seen Him, if you hate me you have hated both me and my Father, I believe him.
Remember Jesus never was reborn, there was no need he was born right to start with (i.e. without sin) So the Spirit of God that he received upon his baptism was not unto a rebirth, it was His Father dwelling in Him.
By contrast we receive the Spirit of God (not the person – the life from God) unto a rebirth. The life we receive by that spirit is eternal life, God's life, but is not the person God.One way to view it is this –
God is the Lifesource – the progenitor or Father.
The sons of God are the Lifestream – the children of the Father.
As it is in any family, only this is a spiritual family not a natural earthly one.
A family of eternal life, not a mortal family of fixed lifespan.Quote The word King has a broad application, and can of course be used to designate an ‘earthly’ Monarch. Israel is a country on Earth. Is it surprising that David would be given this title? I have to be honest and say that I find this a weak counter-argument (counter-point of discussion). Weak or not the fact is that when Israel asked Samuel for a King, God was the one bearing a direct insult. Israel was His people, His own nation, He had made them out of no nation, a people out of no people – His chosen.
They were not to be a nation like others, were called to be separate from all other nations, and He alone was their King, yet they desired an earthly King and God granted them their request – firstly with Saul – the people's choice.
David however was God's model of His choice for a King for His people: a man after His own heart. So David was made King and his reign was used by God as symbolic of the reign of Messiah to come, the Son of David.Quote Jesus plainly claimed to raise up the temple of His body. There is nothing in the context of this passage that would suggest that it was the Father speaking through him. It seems to be that you are simply imposing your preconception that Yahshua isn't God onto the verse. But He is explicitly called 'Theos' many times in Scripture (and by the Father in Heb 1:8!), so yes God did do the raising. It's not a contradiction. So Jesus raised himself? That is not what my bible tells me unless Jesus was his own Father, which I am sure you don't believe.
GALATIANS 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)This pretty directly states that he was raised from the dead how? By God the Father.
I CORINTHIANS 15:15
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.Once again Christ was raised by God. Nowhere do I see a statement that Jesus raised himself, that Christ raised Christ. But everywhere it says God raised him. And more specifically God the Father.
ACTS 2:23-24
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.ACTS 3:14-15
But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.ACTS 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.ACTS 13:30
But God raised him from the dead:ROMANS 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.I PETER 1:20-21
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.Quote Can you give me a good reason why we should assume that it’s the Father vocalizing unless the context suggests otherwise? Well you could take the above example for a start as one. But like I said personally that's the way I view it, looking to the Holy Spirit for guidance of course, to be able to see any exceptions that might be there. Considering that he came not to do his own will but that of His Father, and to declare not himself but His Father, then the odds are pretty good for the outcome being that what he says is the Father's words.
Quote Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.I think the writer of Hebrews was using the 'eternality' of the “Son of God”, a title
derived from Daniel 7:13, as an illustration of the perpetuity of Melchizedek’s priesthood. I think the “having neither beginning of days “ is a reference to Yahshua’s pre-incarnate origin (or lack of it). Melchizadec, after all, must have had a beginning of days. He was a man, as the next verse bears out:Hebrews 7:4
Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.Interesting, but I disagree. He was made like unto the son of God. In a likeness such as the son of God. Now of the son we are told he is the image of the invisible God, the full outray (effulgence) of His glory and the express image of His person. That is what the likeness of the son of god is. This is the same likeness and image that he made man in.
This man cannot remain a priest perpetually if he were just a mortal man for a couple of reasons.
Firstly his priesthood would have ceased when Jesus' began! For even though we learn that Jesus is made a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek – Melchizedek's priesthood would have ceased when Jesus began mediation. For we are told there is one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus.
It would have to say there are two men mediating.Secondly if he were a mortal man there is no possibility that he remained alive through the ages in order to be a perpetual priest.
HEBREWS 7:11
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?Paul points out that the Levitical priesthood was not perfect and outlines some of its shortcomings including the fact that it is not a perpetual priesthood like this Melchizedek one, it is not a heavenly priesthood with perpetual priests but rather an earthly one with mortal priests
HEBREWS 7:15-16
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.HEBREWS 7:23-25
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.The contrast given between the two priesthoods: that of Melchizedek and Levi – is that one is by virtue of an endless life a perpetual priesthood, the other by virtue of a mortal life is not a perfect priesthood.
This was God appearing in the form of a man as seen also in Genesis 18.
Quote So every word spoken by Jesus that affirms His humanity was ‘Him’ speaking by His own volition, and the words that implied deity were actually His ‘Father’ speaking directly through Him. That’s very convenient Malcolm. Can you offer me any evidence to verify that this is the correct way to read the Gospel narratives? Let me see, how would the words of Jesus do?
JOHN 8:17-18
It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.JOHN 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.JOHN 12:49-50
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.Based on these statements by Jesus himself I feel pretty comfortable therefore to consider that the words of Jesus were God's words. But like I say, this is how I personally approach these words. And certainly there are many cases where Jesus the Son is speaking independently of His Father.
Quote None of this addresses the fact that, according to John, when the soldier “pierced His side” in John 19 vs 34 it was a fulfillment of a scripture that YHWH made of Himself in Zech 12:10. Who’s lifeless body did “they” “look upon” Malcolm? Doesn't it? Can God literally die? Can He be eternal, holy, have no part with sin, as He declares of Himself in the Word of God and then turn around and contradict this? He changes not, and neither does or can His Word.
If I have a son, that son is my own flesh and blood, my life expressed in a son, my life stream – making me a father.
My son is not me, yet he contains the fulness of my life in him. I do not literally live in him, yet my life is in him to make him a son.
God is a Spirit, His son was also begotten in this form.
God is not a mortal man – yet God acts in and through mortal men.
And a spirit does not have blood unless that spirit is housed in a body of flesh and blood.
I believe Jesus was the body – the tabernacle that God dwelt in, the blood of God.Quote Quote
Jesus was the channel through which God created all things. God chose to do it this way.
Okay, I accept that. God created THROUGH or BY Jesus. No problem so far…
But, look at this verse:HEBREW 1:10
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine handsThe writer of Hebrews precisely explicates The Logo's involvement in the Creation event by quoting Psalm 102:25, and applying it to Him. However……Psalm 102:25 was written in exclusive reference to the Most High God, YHWH.
Psalm 102:22-27
22 When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.
23 He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days.
24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no endThe writer of Hebrews unequivocally tells us that it was by the Logo’s hands (an idiom designating ‘work’) that the worlds were made. It shows that the pre-incarnate logos was the actual executor of the creation event, and IS YHWH. According to the writer it is the Father Himself who personally addresses His Son as THE Creator of the cosmos!
These OT applications of YHWH to Jesus are quite ubiquitous in the NT; e.g. 1 Pet. 2:3 is nearly an exact quotation of Psalm 34:8, where “Lord” is YHWH. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that “the Lord” in vs 3 is Yahshua. Also, the text in 1 Pet. 3:14-15 is a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is YHWH.Okay I will have to make this the last bit for tonight and get the rest of your post another day.
LUKE 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.JOHN 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.JOHN 10:25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.JOHN 10:37
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.Who was doing what here? The Father working, the Son working, the hand of God the finger of God.
Jesus was the vessel or channel for God in creation, in salvation, he remains the channel for God forever. He is the way you see the invisible God that you otherwise cannot see as a person.Will address the rest of this l8r
Hi SS,
Thank you for your post.
One of the areas he confusion is whether “unity” means eternally in retrospect in being. If so the Word of God is not who God and he said he is, the Son of God.
“The Father and I are one”.
does not say
“the Father and I always have been one being”
Otherwise there would be no need to mention two beings
The Father, and I
The Father and the Son.“It was the Father's good pleasure for
the fullness of deity to dwell in Him”Whose good pleasure? The Father who is God
Who dwelled? The fullness of deity-God-as Spirit
Where? In him-in Christ
So did Christ dwell in Christ? Hardly, God did, as Spirit.God filled Christ with His Spirit.
Mk 1.10
..He saw the heavens opening and the Spirit like a dove descending on him;and a voice came out of the heavens
'You are My beloved Son , in You I am well pleased'
Immediately the Spirit impelled himout into the wilderness”2Cor5
“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
Who was God in? Christ.
So was Christ in Christ? Hardly.Jesus said whoever saw him saw the Father. The Spirit of the Father dwelled in him so what Thomas said was truth. He saw Christ and God in Christ.
Hi SS,
Scripture also says in 1Cor 8 “there are many gods and many lords”
but continues
“But for us there is one God, THE FATHER, and one Lord, Jesus Christ”Who did Jesus tell us to worship?
In Jn4 he says that”true worshippers with worship the Father..”
Should we not believe him?Jesus told the Jews that THE FATHER was the one they called God[Jn 8.54]
The angel told John at the end of the last book“Worship God”
Why follow hints and inferences which lead only to speculation about folly, such that Jesus is not the Son of God, but God Himself?
Simple faith in a God who is not a God of confusion but of peace is that God does everything through his Son, who is less than Him and calls Him “My God”
Hi SS,
Scripture is made to be prayerfully studied and some of it is not easily able to be grasped, as Peter said of the words of Paul in 2Peter.We are told in Hebrews 1-2 that there are instances in the OT when it is Jesus being spoken of and called God. There may be others too. But that does not give anyone the right to declare that all the other odd verses prove that Jesus is YHWH God.
But the work of trintarians seems to be to search the scriptures looking for discrepancies and unusual passages and then proclaiming these as evidence, or even proof, that Jesus is called YHWH and is the God of the Old Testament. They find and bring forward all these different verses. While it is interesting to look at all that is unusual that is not how we should be handling scripture respectfully.
That only arises because they are searching scripture to prove the position they hold that scripture does not declare, that God is a trinity. That is not an openminded approach. The better way is to find the obvious and declare what is often and clearly stated.
Jesus Christ is the SON of the living God.
Hi ss,
The great mystery of scripture is not that ;
“Jesus is not the Son of God but the two are really one being”We do not cobble together similar scriptures about the Father and the Son to state that the two beings are really only one being.
We do not prove from scripture what is not to be believed, but rather receive what it says is truth and compare our speculations with those revelations. We check out what is unusual by basing all our findings on what is known, not building new doctrine based on unusual aspects.
So if our speculations lead us to the conclusion that Jesus never has been the Son of God, a fact soundly established in scripture, then guess who messed up and has to go back to the start again?
Hi Malcolm,
I'm seriously impressed with the eloquence and intelligence expressed in your posts, not to mention the efficiency at which you can pump them out! I'll try to carefully read what you have written, consider it and get back to you.
Is 1:18 wrote:
Quote Something to think about: Do we actually know that every reference to YHWH in the OT was actually a reference to The Father? I don't think this could be true. Especially considering there are numerous occasions where YHWH spoke to men, was seen by them and even ate with them. Yet Jesus and Paul wrote:
John 5:37
“And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form”1 Timothy 6:15-16
15which He will bring about at the proper time–He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.Doesn't add up to me.
Interesting. So you acknowledge that 1 Timothy 6:15-16 speaks of the Father and not the Son? What does it say, again?
“He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen”
That's a strange distinction for Paul to make between “God the Father” and “God the Son”, don't you think? Of course, in verse 13, Paul makes it clear through simple grammar that Yashua and God are not the same being:
1 Timothy 6:13
“I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate… .”You have said in the past the “trinity model” fits scripture best. Does it fit this scripture best? What does your logic tell you?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 15 2006,10:46) Isaiah 25
22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD [YHWH] have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25In the LORD [YHWH] shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.Romans 14
9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.Isaiah 25:23-24 is also quoted and applied to the Father in Romans 14:9-12
So:
1. Isaiah, in Isaiah 25:23-24, prophesied that that every knee will bow to YHWH and every tongue will confess to YHWH.
2. Isaiah 25:23-24 is quoted and applied to both the Father and Jesus.
3. Therefore the name YHWH is applicable to both the Father and Son.Its just the sheer weight of the scriptural evidence Malcolm…….
Hi Is 1.18,Of course you mean Is 45.22f not Is 25
” Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn to Myself.The WORD has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to ME every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
They will say to Me
'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength'Men will come to HIM, all who were angry with HIM will be put to shame. In the Lord all the offspring of Israel will be justified and will glory”
Magnificent.
Pretty well sums it all up really.
God is the only God for us.
The Word of God has gone forth to bring men back to the Lord God.
and in him [the Word] is the Lord to whom all will bow. Those who are angry with him [the Word] will fail to succeed. In God, and in Christ, will be salvation.ps It is also quoted in Phil2.9
” For this reason also, God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name that is above every other name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”So Almighty God has blessed his lesser son and given him absolute and complete authority such that all will have to bow and confess that he is Lord under God to the Glory of God, who is the Father.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 15 2006,10:46) But, look at this verse: HEBREW 1:10
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine handsThe writer of Hebrews precisely explicates The Logo's involvement in the Creation event by quoting Psalm 102:25, and applying it to Him. However……Psalm 102:25 was written in exclusive reference to the Most High God, YHWH.
Psalm 102:22-27
22When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. 23He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days. 24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. 25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no endThe writer of Hebrews unequivocally tells us that it was by the Logo’s hands (an idiom designating ‘work’) that the worlds were made. It shows that the pre-incarnate logos was the actual executor of the creation event, and IS YHWH. According to the writer it is the Father Himself who personally addresses His Son as THE Creator of the cosmos!
These OT applications of YHWH to Jesus are quite ubiquitous in the NT; e.g. 1 Pet. 2:3 is nearly an exact quotation of Psalm 34:8, where “Lord” is YHWH. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that “the Lord” in vs 3 is Yahshua. Also, the text in 1 Pet. 3:14-15 is a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is YHWH.
Hi Is 1.18,
Ps 102 and Is 8 have treasures hidden in them concerning the Son of God. This is revealed by the New Testament writings but without them we would not have known.Why should we demand that every verse in the OT remain in context as referring to YHWH? Does not God have the right but put a verse here and a verse there applying to the Son rather than Himself.
All it should teach us is to not jump to conclusions about interpreting the OT without the context of the New, and start speculating for ourselves that unusual verses “prove” something that is totally opposed to the whole of scripture, such as saying God never had a Son and is triune.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 19 2006,22:49) Interesting. So you acknowledge that 1 Timothy 6:15-16 speaks of the Father and not the Son? What does it say, again? “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen”
That's a strange distinction for Paul to make between “God the Father” and “God the Son”, don't you think? Of course, in verse 13, Paul makes it clear through simple grammar that Yashua and God are not the same being:
Interesting indeed. Thanks WIT, I haven't really looked at this verse in detail before. I only cited it because I remembered the reference to the 'never being seen' and made the automatic association with John 5:37. I will have to look into this passage in depth, and reserve comment until I can make an informed one…Quote 1 Timothy 6:13
“I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate… .”You have said in the past the “trinity model” fits scripture best. Does it fit this scripture best? What does your logic tell you?
He he….
If this one verse was all the data we had on the nature and identity of Yahshua then I might have to re-evaluate my Christology -yes. I say 'might' because I don't actually see an ontological contradistinction being drawn between the Father and the Son. If the passage read:“I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who is Not God and does not give life to all things (My insertion) and witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate… .”
Then I would have to rethink things. Naturally.
So yes WIT, not every verse n the Bible fits neatly into my current theology – which BTW is dynamic and evolving (since I am a flawed human and learning all the time). But I don't think there is anyone on Earth who has perfect theology, and who doesn't have their own 'problem' verses that they can't properly account for or readily explain. I see the monarchial monotheists struggle a great deal to supply plausible explanations to trinitarian and modalist prooftexts also. If I recall correctly, i've even seen you offer the 'plural of majesty' (Royal We) as a viable explanation for Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7!….
It's true that I currently favour the trinitarian position because I think, on balance, it best accounts for ALL the biblical data on The Father, Son and Holy Spirit that we are presented with. Since I don't recall a verse in the Bible that warns us that we need to have perfect understanding of God's metaphysical ontology, i'm not going to get an go out of my way to defend it though. However, It IS manifestly apparent to me that Yahshua IS God and what people believe about Him matters a great deal, even unto salvation, and that is why, when I am here, I will continue to invest a great deal of time and energy defending the true Jesus.
Blessings.
Hi Is 1.18,
But the “true Jesus” you preach is not the Son of God, but God Himself..2Cor 11.3f
” But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully”…come on, be fair about this NH. When have I ever gone outside Scripture in proclaiming my Jesus? If I call Him:
“God” – John 1:1
“My God” – John 20:28
“O God” – Heb 1:8 (definitive article used)
“Mighty God” – Isaiah 9:6
“Great God” – Titus 2:13
“First and Last” – Revelation 1:17, 2:8….
“Alpha and Omega” – Revelation 22:13
“I AM” – John 8:24, 28 & 58
“The YHWH or Righteousness” – Jeremiah 23:6
“Lord of Lords and King of Kings” – Revelation 19:16
“Most High” – Dan 7:18, 22, 25, 27.
or even “YHWH” or “YHWH of Hosts” (Zech 14)…I am being entirely scriptural. These are all apellatives assigned directly to Jesus in the Bible. How can I possibly be preaching another Jesus…..??
When have I ever gone outside the Bible when attempting to define what “Son of God” actually means?…I've tried to do the opposite.
Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
YHWH or YHWH is never applied to Jesus Christ in the bible.
You have speculated because of associations and inferences that this so so but show me where
IT IS WRITTEN.The Triumphant Son of God carries YHWH as Spirit within him always and forever so any references to him can also be references to the treasure within him.
God is not divided. The Spirit of God is not divided. I would suggest you stop seeing division in the Spirit between the Father and the Son. Therer now is none. They are ONE.
Quote The Triumphant Son of God carries YHWH as Spirit within him always and forever so any references to him can also be references to the treasure within him.
Yes, but isn't that is true of all christians? – we all have the Spirit of YHWH in us. John 14:16-17 tells us the Helper/Spirit of Truth will be with us and in us forever:John 14:16-17
16″I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.No other man is called “YHWH” in Scripture. Why is that?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
