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You mean like the blood scriptures I posted Ty. I will post them again. I don't think I left many out. There are all that pertain to the first baptism. The baptism that saves us.
Why do believers want to rob salvation of the blood that saves them? Do you not understand the importance of the blood. Without the blood, there would be not remission of sins. What is more important, water or blood? The church for too long has turned it's back on the blood of the lamb. I rebuke all who do this. It is time to change this. For the power is in the blood of the lamb.
Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Acts 20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.
Romans 3:25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance;
Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of his cross.
Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh: (WEB KJV WEY ASV BBE DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV NIV)
Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.
Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered outside of the gate.
1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a faultless and pure lamb, the blood of Christ;
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
Revelation 7:14 I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.
Revelation 12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
Gee ty, you mean to tell me that when a man is born again, and Christ is in that man, that the Holy Spirit is not in that man. That is what I am referring to as part of the Holy Spirit.
Think of the countless millions who were saved, but because of ignorance or deception, went to the grave without the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why would God have wasted his time saving them, if only to allow them to not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and go to the grave. Would that not be a waste of time. Would not Jesus's death have been in vain for these people?
Now you are talking a different story. Now you are getting into the righteousness of God.
IF YOU DELIBERATELY do not follow up with baptism and the Holy Spirit then you are putting yourself in danger of eternal damnation.
As far as judging we should be obedient to the word. If not then it is the Word that judges.
Hi H…in theclouds,
You say
“We are talking about the saved, blood bought souls here brothers. Those who have accepted Christ as their saviour”Come again.
Where is salvation by accepting Christ written?
Is this a new WAY?Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 18 2006,00:07) Ty, show me where it says that if you don't receive these baptisms that you will not be saved. I can show you where it says judge and ye shall be judged. Do you know the hearts of men. Are you God? Can you see into the heart of the man and say who will and will not be saved? NO.
All I am saying is to say if a man does if a man does not receive the baptism of water or if a man does not recieve the baptism of the Holy Spirit that the man is not saved is to be the judge of that man. Should we insist they be baptized? Certainly. Should we say they will lose their salvation if they do not receive it? No. But what we may do is say that we are not certain how the Lord will judge disobedience to the baptisms.
We are talking about the saved, blood bought souls here brothers. Those who have accepted Christ as their saviour. We are not talking about the unsaved. You are attempting to judge that which has been made clean by the blood of the lamb. Woe to those who judge period, but woe much more to those who judge that which the Lord has bought with his blood.
You mention something that I taught on just last night. You say ” Those who have accepted Christ as their Savior”. The real question is…has He accepted them? How do we know that we are accepted? When He fills us with His Spriit which is His seal (Acts 11:17,18; Ephes. 1:13,14; Rom. 5:5), the Sprit of adoption. Again if any man (typrsn, H, Nick, George Bush, the pope, and any other man) have not the Sprit of Christ, He is none of His (Rom. 8:9). Many are called (invited), but few are chosen (approved/elected/accepted). It is the host that decides.Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 18 2006,00:11) Gee ty, you mean to tell me that when a man is born again, and Christ is in that man, that the Holy Spirit is not in that man. That is what I am referring to as part of the Holy Spirit.
H,I will not even respond to your post above, as you are dull of hearing.
Do you not understand that the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, the Spirit of Christ, etc. refers to the same thing? Christ is not in the man if the man does not have His Spirit. What about that can you not comprehend?
Nick, how can you consider yourself a christian and not know these things? Here is proof that Christ is in us. The first two scriptures and the rest deal with being saved.
Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are.”
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are.”
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.Romans 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
This scripture is for those who do not understand that it is Christ that enters into the heart of the man during salvation.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn't receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 18 2006,00:12) Think of the countless millions who were saved, but because of ignorance or deception, went to the grave without the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why would God have wasted his time saving them, if only to allow them to not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and go to the grave. Would that not be a waste of time. Would not Jesus's death have been in vain for these people? Now you are talking a different story. Now you are getting into the righteousness of God.
IF YOU DELIBERATELY do not follow up with baptism and the Holy Spirit then you are putting yourself in danger of eternal damnation.
As far as judging we should be obedient to the word. If not then it is the Word that judges.
Dear Kenrch,So are you going to tell a man that if he does not get the baptisms, he will go to hell? I might suggest the possibility, but you don't know. Only God says who is and who is not saved.
Let me ask you this? How many people that you know, who claim to be saved to you know for sure are actually saved? Can you see into their hearts? I know catholics who are more loving and do more for the kingdom of God then do many of those who claim to be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
What matters more in the eyes of God? Speaking in tongues or loving your neighbor? Is not the love of Christ that is in the hearts of men what matters. So God is the judge of who goes to heaven and to hell. We must go what we believe is right, but if not grounded in the love of Christ, it is all in vain.
What I am saying is if you cause your brother to fall because you say you are going to hell if you don't speak in tongues, who is more in danger of judgement, he who fell or you for causing him to fall?
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 18 2006,00:30) Nick, how can you consider yourself a christian and not know these things? Here is proof that Christ is in us. The first two scriptures and the rest deal with being saved. Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are.”
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are.”
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.Romans 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
This scripture is for those who do not understand that it is Christ that enters into the heart of the man during salvation.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn't receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
H,I will address each passage you have presented one by one.
1) Paul is saying that it is the Spirit of Christ that is alive in Him. You can't live His resurrected life without His Spirit (Rom. 8:10-13).
2) It is the Sprit that actualizes our sonship (Ephes. 1:5,13,14; Rom. 8:14-17, etc.).
3) No one is questioning that the grace of God brings salvation(Tit. 2:11).
4) ditto
5) faith is definitely the start
6) ditto
7) Yep, Joel 2:32 says that whosoever shall call upon the name of YHWH shall be saved.
8) Yep, Paul said earlier in 2 Thess. 1:8 this is because they obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What's your point? Here you are using passages in isolation again. You refuse to view the subject in it's totality.
Hi H,
You are confused and your teaching very muddled and inarticulate. Perhaps you are trying to say something here but you have given no links and repeated yourself and taken verses out of context.Perhaps you should do it more slowly for us simpler folk?
Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 18 2006,00:27) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 18 2006,00:11) Gee ty, you mean to tell me that when a man is born again, and Christ is in that man, that the Holy Spirit is not in that man. That is what I am referring to as part of the Holy Spirit.
H,I will not even respond to your post above, as you are dull of hearing.
Do you not understand that the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, the Spirit of Christ, etc. refers to the same thing? Christ is not in the man if the man does not have His Spirit. What about that can you not comprehend?
Ty,This is where you make your mistake. For if salvation and the baptism was one in the same, it would not of been done seperately in the scriptures. But the scriptures are plain when it says that salvation comes first and then comes the baptism of the Holy Ghost. At times the baptism of the Holy Ghost came even before the water baptism and then at times it came after the water baptism. And there was times the Lord gave the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation. For the reason of the laying on of hands was not for salvation, but for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
For what man can lay hands on another man and save him?
There are many who believe that water baptism saves. This concept came because many did get saved during the baptism of water. For salvation is a matter of the heart. And often times, while getting baptized by water, people would be saved, and also receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God does things when he whats them done. Not when we want them done.
Hi typsyn
Can we look at the context of this verse quoted to the saved in Rom 10?“7) Yep, Joel 2:32 says that whosoever shall call upon the name of YHWH shall be saved.”
Joel 2.23f
“23So rejoice, O (AZ)sons of Zion,
And (BA)be glad in the LORD your God;
For He has (BB)given you [a]the early rain for your vindication
And He has poured down for you the rain,
The early and [c](BC)latter rain as before.
24The threshing floors will be full of grain,
And the vats will (BD)overflow with the new wine and oil.
25″Then I will make up to you for the years
That the swarming (BE)locust has eaten,
The creeping locust, the stripping locust and the gnawing locust,
My great army which I sent among you.
26″You will have plenty to (BF)eat and be satisfied
And (BG)praise the name of the LORD your God,
Who has (BH)dealt wondrously with you;
Then My people will (BI)never be put to shame.
27″Thus you will (BJ)know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God,
And there is (BK)no other;
And My people will never be (BL)put to shame.
28″(BM)It will come about after this
That I will (BN)pour out My Spirit on all (BO)mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
29″Even on the (BP)male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
The Day of the LORD
30″I will (BQ)display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31″The (BR)sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the (BS)great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32″And it will come about that (BT)whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For (BU)on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who (BV)escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the (BW)survivors whom the LORD calls. “Surely the time of the complete fulfillment of these verses has yet to come and in Rom 10 it is used as a TYPE of spirit baptism?
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 18 2006,00:41) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 18 2006,00:12) Think of the countless millions who were saved, but because of ignorance or deception, went to the grave without the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why would God have wasted his time saving them, if only to allow them to not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and go to the grave. Would that not be a waste of time. Would not Jesus's death have been in vain for these people? Now you are talking a different story. Now you are getting into the righteousness of God.
IF YOU DELIBERATELY do not follow up with baptism and the Holy Spirit then you are putting yourself in danger of eternal damnation.
As far as judging we should be obedient to the word. If not then it is the Word that judges.
Dear Kenrch,So are you going to tell a man that if he does not get the baptisms, he will go to hell? I might suggest the possibility, but you don't know. Only God says who is and who is not saved.
Let me ask you this? How many people that you know, who claim to be saved to you know for sure are actually saved? Can you see into their hearts? I know catholics who are more loving and do more for the kingdom of God then do many of those who claim to be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
What matters more in the eyes of God? Speaking in tongues or loving your neighbor? Is not the love of Christ that is in the hearts of men what matters. So God is the judge of who goes to heaven and to hell. We must go what we believe is right, but if not grounded in the love of Christ, it is all in vain.
What I am saying is if you cause your brother to fall because you say you are going to hell if you don't speak in tongues, who is more in danger of judgement, he who fell or you for causing him to fall?
Look H,Let me chime in if I may. God could give a hill of beans who does what. Haven't you read Matt. 7:21-23? Many say they know Him. The question is, does He know them? (Gal.4:9). Who told you that they are “doing for the kingdom?”
Now you are bringing up tongues. You're just rambling all over the place aren't you? What God is concerned about is us loving our neighbor with His love that is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost that He has given us (Rom. 5:5). He wants us to live His life (Rom. 8:10-13; Gal. 2:20). He wants us to work out, what He works in (Phil. 2:13). The kind of “falling” one should do when they hear the truth is to their knees crying out to God. I did the same some years ago and God filled me His Sprit. Do not get on this forum and use “guilt trip” tactics. It won't work.
Here's my $2 worth. You can be saved, but not filled with the Holy Spirit. It's a bit like having a car with no petrol. You can't grow as a Christian without the baptism in the Holy Spirit, nor benefit yourself or others with the fruit or gifts thereof.
There are many good Christians who have not received the advent of Pentecost, just as there are many Pentecostal Christians who have not entered into Tabenacles. Will it one day be said that only those who have entered into Tabernacles will be saved? God forbid, yet those who have have gained much.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 18 2006,00:55) Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 18 2006,00:27) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 18 2006,00:11) Gee ty, you mean to tell me that when a man is born again, and Christ is in that man, that the Holy Spirit is not in that man. That is what I am referring to as part of the Holy Spirit.
H,I will not even respond to your post above, as you are dull of hearing.
Do you not understand that the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, the Spirit of Christ, etc. refers to the same thing? Christ is not in the man if the man does not have His Spirit. What about that can you not comprehend?
Ty,This is where you make your mistake. For if salvation and the baptism was one in the same, it would not of been done seperately in the scriptures. But the scriptures are plain when it says that salvation comes first and then comes the baptism of the Holy Ghost. At times the baptism of the Holy Ghost came even before the water baptism and then at times it came after the water baptism. And there was times the Lord gave the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation. For the reason of the laying on of hands was not for salvation, but for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
For what man can lay hands on another man and save him?
There are many who believe that water baptism saves. This concept came because many did get saved during the baptism of water. For salvation is a matter of the heart. And often times, while getting baptized by water, people would be saved, and also receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God does things when he whats them done. Not when we want them done.
H,Who said anything about the laying of hands? All who receive the Holy Ghost don't receive it through the laying on of hands. In acts 2 and Acts 10 hands were not laid. I received it in the back of a moving car. No one was in the back, but me. There were no hands laid.
I do believe that this conversation is about exhausted (as far as I am concerned). Again, you are dull of hearing.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 18 2006,01:11) Ty, can a man be saved by the laying on of hands?
H,Please read my post in response to your laying on of hands rambling.
Ty, please don't get angry brother. I love you and believe your stand in the faith is far better then most. I know I have rattled your cage.
The point I am trying to get across is that salvation comes by believing. And then if one has not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which most don't, it is given with the laying on of hands. Salvation does not come by the laying on of hands.
Now, if one does not get the baptisms, will they lose their salvation, who has the right, but God to decide in that matter? Should we encourage all to partake in the baptisms. Cerainly and with all urgency. Why? Because it fulfills all rightiousness.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 18 2006,01:24) Here's my $2 worth. You can be saved, but not filled with the Holy Spirit. It's a bit like having a car with no petrol. You can't grow as a Christian without the baptism in the Holy Spirit, nor benefit yourself or others with the fruit or gifts thereof. There are many good Christians who have not received the advent of Pentecost, just as there are many Pentecostal Christians who have not entered into Tabenacles. Will it one day be said that only those who have entered into Tabernacles will be saved? God forbid, yet those who have have gained much.
Dear Oxy,Brother, what is more important? The gifts of the spirit or the love of Christ? What good is a gift if it is not given from a loving heart?
What benefits the kingdom of God more? To feed the hungry, cloth the naked, take care of the widows, to help the sick or to speak in tongues and to have the gifts of the spirit.
The gifts of the spirit are given to help the growth in faith. But what good is that growth if there is not first love. It is the love of God that matters more then all things. Too many forget this. This is what happened to Israel. They got caught up in the letter of the law and forgot about loving the giver of the law. Let us not make the same mistake. As long as we continue in charity first in all things, through the love of Christ, the rest will take care of itself.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 18 2006,01:05) Hi typsyn
Can we look at the context of this verse quoted to the saved in Rom 10?“7) Yep, Joel 2:32 says that whosoever shall call upon the name of YHWH shall be saved.”
Joel 2.23f
“23So rejoice, O (AZ)sons of Zion,
And (BA)be glad in the LORD your God;
For He has (BB)given you [a]the early rain for your vindication
And He has poured down for you the rain,
The early and [c](BC)latter rain as before.
24The threshing floors will be full of grain,
And the vats will (BD)overflow with the new wine and oil.
25″Then I will make up to you for the years
That the swarming (BE)locust has eaten,
The creeping locust, the stripping locust and the gnawing locust,
My great army which I sent among you.
26″You will have plenty to (BF)eat and be satisfied
And (BG)praise the name of the LORD your God,
Who has (BH)dealt wondrously with you;
Then My people will (BI)never be put to shame.
27″Thus you will (BJ)know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God,
And there is (BK)no other;
And My people will never be (BL)put to shame.
28″(BM)It will come about after this
That I will (BN)pour out My Spirit on all (BO)mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
29″Even on the (BP)male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
The Day of the LORD
30″I will (BQ)display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31″The (BR)sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the (BS)great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32″And it will come about that (BT)whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For (BU)on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who (BV)escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the (BW)survivors whom the LORD calls. “Surely the time of the complete fulfillment of these verses has yet to come and in Rom 10 it is used as a TYPE of spirit baptism?
Nick,You have opened up a new can of worms. You do understand that this a prophecy of the promise of Messiah's deliverance don't you? The key word is “whosoever”. That means Jews and Gentiles. Rather Gentiles would be saved was not the question. The question was the methodology of God. Paul touched on this in detail in his epistle to the saints at Ephesus. Paul explains how that Christ Jesus is our peace, who took two and made one new man, who reconciles both Jew and Gentile in one body, the church. We through him have access by one Spriit to God. Paul picks it up at Heb. 12:22 and says that we are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the “heavenly” Jerusalem and to an innumerable company of angels, etc. According to Peter and Paul, Joel's prophecy has been fulfilled. It was the church that was the mystery! The heavenly Jerusalem and mount Zion are the church!
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