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Dear Ty,
Then my understanding of your interpretation is correct. Your stand is wobbly. You have the nessessary components, but you don't put them in the proper pretenses. And because of this, you abuse the faith.
What I mean is if you teach this way, it can be damaging to a believer, for it is not on solid ground. I tried to explain it to you before, and I will attempt to do so again. You can choose to accept it or oppose it. The thing is, if you teach it here, I will use God's Word to prove you wrong and point your teaching out as wrong.
Now, please use your head which the Lord gave you and your heart that has the love of Christ within. If you don't accept this, I ask you as a brother in the Lord to do this, if you are a sincere brother. Pray and fast one day a week for three weeks and pray that the Lord answer you on if your teaching is right or my teaching is right. Just know this, I believe and stand on that my teaching comes from God.
Anyway, if a man has hands laid on him, and is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, after being shown the scriptures of the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that he has understanding and this man does not speak in tongues, it does not mean this man has not received the baptism. What it does mean however is this man is weak in faith. What it also can mean is that the enemy may have planted a seed of doubt in this man that has caused a weakness in faith. Yet, it does not mean that this man will never speak in tongues.
As for being saved, it is unscriptural to say that if a person had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they are not saved. What kind of garbage is this? Don't you realize how foolish that is? Think about the countless millions who accepted Christ into their hearts and had never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Don't you understand that for most of the age of the church, it had been stopped by the pagan catholic church? Did God not allow any who where washed by the blood of the lamb to enter the kingdom of heaven because they did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? God forbid. Come on brother, use common sense. God would not have done that. When a man accepts Christ, he is saved. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was given to man to help him in his walk of faith. The baptism itself has nothing to do with obtaining his salvation, but has everything to do with keeping his salvation. For it is the Holy Ghost that gives the increase in the faith. It is the watering of the our faith.
Hi H,
If you are to lecture and rebuke others please make sure your own stand is scriptually provable, word by word, phrase by phrase-lest we all see the mote in your own eye.IMHO you have not laid a good scriptural base yourself for any comments such as these.
“As for being saved, it is unscriptural to say that if a person had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they are not saved. What kind of garbage is this? Don't you realize how foolish that is? Think about the countless millions who accepted Christ into their hearts and had never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Don't you understand that for most of the age of the church, it had been stopped by the pagan catholic church? Did God not allow any who where washed by the blood of the lamb to enter the kingdom of heaven because they did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? God forbid. Come on brother, use common sense. God would not have done that. When a man accepts Christ, he is saved. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was given to man to help him in his walk of faith. The baptism itself has nothing to do with obtaining his salvation, but has everything to do with keeping his salvation. For it is the Holy Ghost that gives the increase in the faith. It is the watering of the our faith”
typsrn agrees with Peter and we both find Peter most reliable in these matters, and rather more so than yourself or for that matter ourselves.
If you are not led by the Spirit then you are not a child of God. The Holy Spirit is the seal of God. I believe if you repent (please lets not get into this again) and die before you could continue then the Father would save you knowing the heart. HOWEVER, if you repent and deliberately do not follow up then you are putting yourself in jeopardy of eternal damnation.
Nick, Ty does not agree with Peter. On the contrary, he only agrees with you. You two can start your own religion. As for the gospel of Christ, I will continue to stand of the faith and uphold all that is faithful and true.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 17 2006,22:54) Dear Ty, Then my understanding of your interpretation is correct. Your stand is wobbly. You have the nessessary components, but you don't put them in the proper pretenses. And because of this, you abuse the faith.
What I mean is if you teach this way, it can be damaging to a believer, for it is not on solid ground. I tried to explain it to you before, and I will attempt to do so again. You can choose to accept it or oppose it. The thing is, if you teach it here, I will use God's Word to prove you wrong and point your teaching out as wrong.
Now, please use your head which the Lord gave you and your heart that has the love of Christ within. If you don't accept this, I ask you as a brother in the Lord to do this, if you are a sincere brother. Pray and fast one day a week for three weeks and pray that the Lord answer you on if your teaching is right or my teaching is right. Just know this, I believe and stand on that my teaching comes from God.
Anyway, if a man has hands laid on him, and is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, after being shown the scriptures of the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that he has understanding and this man does not speak in tongues, it does not mean this man has not received the baptism. What it does mean however is this man is weak in faith. What it also can mean is that the enemy may have planted a seed of doubt in this man that has caused a weakness in faith. Yet, it does not mean that this man will never speak in tongues.
As for being saved, it is unscriptural to say that if a person had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they are not saved. What kind of garbage is this? Don't you realize how foolish that is? Think about the countless millions who accepted Christ into their hearts and had never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Don't you understand that for most of the age of the church, it had been stopped by the pagan catholic church? Did God not allow any who where washed by the blood of the lamb to enter the kingdom of heaven because they did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? God forbid. Come on brother, use common sense. God would not have done that. When a man accepts Christ, he is saved. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was given to man to help him in his walk of faith. The baptism itself has nothing to do with obtaining his salvation, but has everything to do with keeping his salvation. For it is the Holy Ghost that gives the increase in the faith. It is the watering of the our faith.
H,As far as fasting goes, I fast very often sometimes for 48-72 hours at a time (without solids or liquids). I do not say that to seem righteous. We both know the Pharisee mentioned his fasting and was not justified (Luke 18). I say that because you suggested that I do something that I am doing and will continue to do.
As far as me using my common sense (which I think I have a fair share of), when it comes to the scriptures, I could care less about my sense. That is another major problem in the church today. There is too much dependence on intellect (Is.55:8; 1 Cor. 1:18-25; 1 Cor. 2:1-16).
Most that I encounter, agree with your position on this. That being said, I completely disagree. It is sad that people are walking around thinking they have something that they don't have. Many are in for a rude awakening.
Hi,
The church in Acts shows us what God would have us do.
It shows men preaching the Son of God as the way to God through repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and then the laying on of hands for the Son in the apostles to baptise in the Spirit, and God showed his approval through the signs and wonders done by Him thgrough His obedient servants.Nowhere do we see anyone inviting Jesus into their hearts to be their personal Lord and saviour
and
Nowhere do we see this preached as a way of salvation.We still need to learn from these examples because nothing has changed.
HOWEVER, if you repent and deliberately do not follow up then you are putting yourself in jeopardy of eternal damnation.
Brother, where does it say a man must be baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved. Please show me the scripture. Where does it say a man must be baptized in water to enter into the kingdom of God. Please show me the scripture. If is is not written, you are doing the job of God by saying a man is or is not saved. Are you to judge the hearts of men? God will decide in these matters. Should we urge that all things should be done. Certainly, for it says to do so. Yet, it does not say what the will happen if these things are not followed. It does say though, judge and ye shall be judged.
One thing it does say is if you believe in Jesus with all of your heart and ask for forgiveness of yours sins, you will be saved. This is written. One thing it does say is a man must be born again to enter into the kingdom of God. This is written.
So we strive to bring those who are lost into the kingdom and we strive to make sure they receive the baptisms. We strive to build those who are you in the faith to become strong in the faith. For the ground must be solid and the house must be built out of stone. We must leave no room for the enemy.
Hi H,
You say
“One thing it does say is if you believe in Jesus with all of your heart and ask for forgiveness of yours sins, you will be saved.”
Where?
Surely you are not quoting only part of the scriptural story of the Jailor in Acts 16?
Please show the context too.We just follow how it was taught and demonstrated.
The rest is from the fertlie imaginations of men.Show me in scripture then typrsn where it says that it is with the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves a man. Show me in scripture where it says that it is the water baptism that saves a man. It says it no place. To say it does is to add to God's Word.
It does say that faith in Christ saves. There is many scriptures that point to this. It does say that it is the blood of the lamb that washes away our sins and sanctifies us, makes us Holy. This is written.
Think of the countless millions who were saved, but because of ignorance or deception, went to the grave without the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why would God have wasted his time saving them, if only to allow them to not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and go to the grave. Would that not be a waste of time. Would not Jesus's death have been in vain for these people?
Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.Scripture says that you receive the Holy Spirit and when you do and allow the Spirit to lead then you are a child of God.
So if you don't have the Spirit of God then you are NOT a child of God. And if not a child of God then not an heir to the thrown and NOT a brother with Christ.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Hi H,
Does Jesus tell his brothers to seek the gift of the Spirit, even to demand such things with persistence??Lk 11.5-13
“5Then He said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;6for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
7and from inside he answers and says, 'Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.'
8″I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet (A)because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
9″So I say to you, (B)ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10″For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
11″Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12″Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13″ÂIf you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
Should they not obey him?
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 17 2006,23:13) If you are not led by the Spirit then you are not a child of God. The Holy Spirit is the seal of God. I believe if you repent (please lets not get into this again) and die before you could continue then the Father would save you knowing the heart. HOWEVER, if you repent and deliberately do not follow up then you are putting yourself in jeopardy of eternal damnation.
kenrch,It is true that if you are not lead by the Sprit of God, you are not a child of God. A man can't be lead by the Spirit if he doesn't have it to lead him. We become God's children when we receive the Holy Ghost. Paul calls this the Spirit of adoption (Rom. 8:15; Ephes. 1:5; Gal. 4:4-7). If we don't have the Sprit of Christ, we are none of His (Rom. 8:9) and are external of His body (1 Cor. 12:13). The seal that you speak of signifies ownership (Ephes. 1:13).
The thief on the cross died in faith under the Old Testament and received not the promise (Heb. 11:39,40). All I can say is I hope you are right in your last statement.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 17 2006,23:43) Nick, do I have to take you by the hand? I thought you knew the scriptures?
Hi H,
Your hand would lead me off the path of simplicity into the byways of men at times.
My hand is already being held by one I can fully trust thanks.Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
When does Christ enter the man? When he is saved. And if Christ is in that man, what man can say the Holy Spirit is not there also. When a man is saved, part of the Holy Spirit is there also, for that is what led the man to repentance.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the immersion of the Holy Spirit that comes after the cleansing of the person by the blood of Christ. If the person is not saved first, the person will not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 17 2006,23:50) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 17 2006,23:43) Nick, do I have to take you by the hand? I thought you knew the scriptures?
Hi H,
Your hand would lead me off the path of simplicity into the byways of men at times.
My hand is already being held by one I can fully trust thanks.
I am sorry Nick.I will show you the scripture. I should have understood that you asked not for your benefit, but for those who are following the forum.
Hi H,
When you can rid your teaching of the added rationalisations and justifications and just show us what is written it will be more helpful thanks.Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 17 2006,23:17) Nick, Ty does not agree with Peter. On the contrary, he only agrees with you. You two can start your own religion. As for the gospel of Christ, I will continue to stand of the faith and uphold all that is faithful and true.
H,You pick certain passages out of the scriptures to support your view, instead of viewing the scripture in it's totality on this subject.
This has nothing to do with me, you or Nick. This is what the Word says. I do agree with Peter and the rest of the apostles, especially the Apostle (Jn. 17:20; Acts 2:42; Heb. 2:1-3; Heb. 3:1).
Ty, show me where it says that if you don't receive these baptisms that you will not be saved.
I can show you where it says judge and ye shall be judged. Do you know the hearts of men. Are you God? Can you see into the heart of the man and say who will and will not be saved? NO.
All I am saying is to say if a man does if a man does not receive the baptism of water or if a man does not recieve the baptism of the Holy Spirit that the man is not saved is to be the judge of that man. Should we insist they be baptized? Certainly. Should we say they will lose their salvation if they do not receive it? No. But what we may do is say that we are not certain how the Lord will judge disobedience to the baptisms.
We are talking about the saved, blood bought souls here brothers. Those who have accepted Christ as their saviour. We are not talking about the unsaved. You are attempting to judge that which has been made clean by the blood of the lamb. Woe to those who judge period, but woe much more to those who judge that which the Lord has bought with his blood.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 17 2006,23:50) Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. When does Christ enter the man? When he is saved. And if Christ is in that man, what man can say the Holy Spirit is not there also. When a man is saved, part of the Holy Spirit is there also, for that is what led the man to repentance.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the immersion of the Holy Spirit that comes after the cleansing of the person by the blood of Christ. If the person is not saved first, the person will not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
H,Come on. Now you are really wresting the scriptures. To your own destruction I might add. What in the world is “part of the Holy Spirit?”
You are must understand that when the gospel is preached and believed, the blood is applied. That is why Cornelius and his received the Holy Ghost before Peter could even finish preaching (Acts 10:44). I've already shown you the Old Testament type from Ex. 12 and Ex. 14 that first the the blood is applied, then comes the baptism in the cloud and in the sea. You do err not knowing the scriptures.
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