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Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 11 2006,23:01) If a babe is born then not feed it will die.
kenrch,Please explain what you mean. I do understand what you are saying here.
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 11 2006,23:01) If a babe is born then not feed it will die.
I do not understand what you are saying here.Hi H,
We should not be like Don Quixote, searching for enemies everywhere and finishing up tilting at windmills.
If we do that we show that we still have a mote or two in our eyes that stop us from seeing the real enemy.Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 11 2006,21:57) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 11 2006,18:25) Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 11 2006,02:41) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 11 2006,01:46) Dear Ty, 1) No, if a person does not receive the Holy Ghost, that person is not saved. Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be born again and He described the birth of the Spirit (John 3:1-8). Paul also says in Rom. 8:9 that if any person does not have the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. He also says in 1 Cor.12:13 that by one Spirit we are baptized into one body. Jesus Christ was born again by resurrection. So must we be.
When Jesus told Nicodemus a man must be born again, he was telling him that the man must be born again in the spirit. Since man was dead in the spirit, he had to be reborn.
For how can one be reborn if not first born then die. And since this does not happen in the flesh, the Lord had to be speaking of the spirit. For we are only born once in the flesh.
Now, Nicodemus though Jesus was talking about the flesh, and that is why he asked the question. Notice the word second.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
That is when Jesus explained to him that he was not talking about physical birth, and rebirth, but spiritual birth and rebirth.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Many confuse being born of water with the baptism of water. This is not so. Jesus was trying to make Nicodemus understand that he was not speaking of physical birth, but spiritual birth. When he said a man must be born of water, he was speaking of being born of the flesh. Proof of that lies within th very next verse. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
Also, when we are born into this world, we are born of water. We are born in a sack of water. When that water breaks, we are at that moment born.
When we are born again, we are at that moment changed. Christ comes and lives in us. And if Christ is in us, is not the Holy Spirit? This is not the same as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yet, many have recieved the baptism at the same time of salvation. God gives to whom he gives. It is his will. I was saved at fifteen and did not recieve the baptism of the Holy Spirit until around the age of twentyone.
Now, if I would have died before recieving the baptism, would I have gone to heaven or hell?
Thank you for your answers. This was really the one that concerned me the most and needed dealt with.
God bless brother.
H,The scripture teaches that being baptized in the Spirit and being born of the Spirit are synonymous. I will not discuss water as that discussion has been exhausted as far as I'm concerned. A person's initial salvation is not complete until after they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance (Ephes. 1:13, 14), the firstfruits of the Sprit (Rom. 8:23) the sealing and earnest of the Spirit (1 Cor. 1:22; 2 Cor. 5:5). Repentance unto life only takes place when there is the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Acts 11:15-18).
Ty,If you are going to teach this on this forum, I will meet you one every corner. For that is contrary to the Word of God. So I suggest you gird your loins. For when a man is born again, he has Christ in him and to say that the Holy Spirit of God is not in that man when Christ is in that man is a false teaching. To say that the man is not saved when Christ enters into that man after cleansing that man with his blood is false teaching. I am going to post some scriptures on the power of the blood of the lamb. I suggest you read them. For all who try to steal the redeeming blood of the lamb are thieves. So read it wisely, least you fall into this catagory.
Why do believers want to rob salvation of the blood that saves them? Do you not understand the importance of the blood. Without the blood, there would be not remission of sins. What is more important, water or blood? The church for too long has turned it's back on the blood of the lamb. I rebuke all who do this. It is time to change this. For the power is in the blood of the lamb.
Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Acts 20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.
Romans 3:25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance;
Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of his cross.
Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh: (WEB KJV WEY ASV BBE DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV NIV)
Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.
Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered outside of the gate.
1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a faultless and pure lamb, the blood of Christ;
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
Revelation 7:14 I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.
Revelation 12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
H,As I've said before, so say I now again, the blood is the beginning of the journey, but not the complete journey. If it were not for that beginning there would be no ending. Please do not private message me anymore as the others on this forum are not able to see our dialog. It seems that you are saying that the blood of Christ is all that we need. This is not true. I have said nothing against the blood of Christ. Neither have I taught false doctrine. I teach the same doctrine the apostles taught. Your doctrine is flawed because it doesn't go far enough. If you would take the scriptures that I have provided along with the scriptures that you have provided, you would have a broader view of the gospel message. Not only did Christ die according to the scriptures, but He was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4). You seem to want to identify with a dead Christ, while I choose to identify with a Christ who testified “I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and death (Rev. 1:18). I've identified with this risen Christ, not only through repentance and water baptism in His name (Acts 2:38), but also by being a recipient of His resurrection life which is His Spirit. Adam, my first father has sinned (Is. 43:27; Rom. 5:12; 1 Cor. 20-23, 45-50) and passed death to every man. This is why David said ” I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Ps. 50:5) The last Adam was made a life-giving Spirit and is the Father of eternal life, the everlasting Father (Is. 9:6) by the resurrection from the dead. He is the first of His kind. I have His resurrection life in me now. If this resurrection life is not the Holy Ghost, then why did Christ have to be glorified first (John 7:37-39)?
I emailed you this response to your private message:
“The blood is vital. I competely understand that without it there would be no remission of sins, but it does not end there. No one is disagreeing with you concerning the importance of the blood. After sins are remitted then what? After the filthy garments are removed we must be clothed with a change of raiment (Zech. 1-4). Although Paul says to the church in Romans 5:9 that we are justified by His blood, Paul told the church at Corinth that if Christ be not raised, our faith in is vain and we are still in our sins (1 Cor. 15:17) because He was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification (Rom. 4:25). Christ was born again. Paul says that we shall be saved by His life (Rom. 5:10). Paul is referring to His resurrected life. The life that Paul was living, was the resurrected Christ living in him (Gal. 3:20). His death was the means to life, but not the life itself. We live unto Him that died for us and rose again (2 Cor. 5:15). If we don't have His Spirit, we don't have His life and are none of His (Rom. 8:9).
As I mentioned before, although the blood of the passover lamb in Ex. 12 was the beginning of Israel's deliverance, it was certainly not the end. If they would not have followed Moses through the Red Sea in Ex. 14 they would have died in Egypt. Egypt is a type of the world. Peter says that we have escaped (Exodus) the corruption that is in the world through lusts (2 Pet. 1:4). How do we escape? (Acts 2:38; 1 Cor. 10:1-4).”
What about this do you disagree with? Please respond point by point.
H,Please respond to my post, point by point.
Dear Ty,
I am sorry, I mistook your stand on the trinity or should I say confused you with another new brother on the forum. Forgive me for my lack of memory. I won't forget again. I hope. I am a man though and am capable of sin.
As for our salvation, when we are born again, we are baptized into his death and rebirth at salvation. To not know this is to be indoctrinated in the ways of men. I cannot believe that you can say that when a person asks for forgiveness of sins and his sins are washed away by the blood of the lamb, that you claim they are not saved. If you don't know that it is the forgiveness of sins that is what saves a man, that faith in Christ forgives our sins and causes rebirth, then how is it that you know you have been saved yourself? For if you do not recognize the things of Christ, if your don't recognize the things of the Spirit, either you are so indoctrinated and it has hardened your heart or you subscribe to another Spirit. So one of the two or both could be keeping you from the truth in God's Word. Break away from the indoctinations of men. Pray and fast that the Lord reveal the truth to you. Don't even believe me, which I know you don't already. All I ask is you don't rely on your indoctrination, rely on God. Pray and fast. Be fervent in seeking his face. If you seek him with an earnest heart, he will reveal the truth to you in this matter.
I ask all to do this, but know of none who do. All would much rather rely on their egos, their flesh. To understand the things of the spirit, you must rely on God and to do so, you must let God teach you.Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 11 2006,23:10) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 11 2006,23:01) If a babe is born then not feed it will die.
kenrch,Please explain what you mean. I do understand what you are saying here.
When one accepts Christ he is a babe and unless led by the Sprit and fed the word he will die.Sorry I didn't make it clear before
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 12 2006,01:31) Dear Ty, I am sorry, I mistook your stand on the trinity or should I say confused you with another new brother on the forum. Forgive me for my lack of memory. I won't forget again. I hope. I am a man though and am capable of sin.
As for our salvation, when we are born again, we are baptized into his death and rebirth at salvation. To not know this is to be indoctrinated in the ways of men. I cannot believe that you can say that when a person asks for forgiveness of sins and his sins are washed away by the blood of the lamb, that you claim they are not saved. If you don't know that it is the forgiveness of sins that is what saves a man, that faith in Christ forgives our sins and causes rebirth, then how is it that you know you have been saved yourself? For if you do not recognize the things of Christ, if your don't recognize the things of the Spirit, either you are so indoctrinated and it has hardened your heart or you subscribe to another Spirit. So one of the two or both could be keeping you from the truth in God's Word. Break away from the indoctinations of men. Pray and fast that the Lord reveal the truth to you. Don't even believe me, which I know you don't already. All I ask is you don't rely on your indoctrination, rely on God. Pray and fast. Be fervent in seeking his face. If you seek him with an earnest heart, he will reveal the truth to you in this matter.
I ask all to do this, but know of none who do. All would much rather rely on their egos, their flesh. To understand the things of the spirit, you must rely on God and to do so, you must let God teach you.
H,I also am a man and capable of sin, but you have not sinned simply because you forgot that you had asked me about my belief in the trinity. What I believe is not based upon what men say, it is based upon what the Word says.
I am sick of you implying that just because i don't concur with you, I am wrong and need to achieve the level of understanding that you think that you have. I am completely aware of the fact that the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God as Paul stated in 1 Cor. 2:9-14. I am full of the Holy Ghost and have been for almost 17 years now. I received it just like the folks in Acts. While I'll admit I do not know everything, salvation is Bible 101 to me. I am done with this discussion as I have better things to do with my time than go back and forth with you or anyone else on this issue .
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 12 2006,02:18) Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 11 2006,23:10) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 11 2006,23:01) If a babe is born then not feed it will die.
kenrch,Please explain what you mean. I do understand what you are saying here.
When one accepts Christ he is a babe and unless led by the Sprit and fed the word he will die.Sorry I didn't make it clear before
kenrch,As true as this statement is, I still don't know where you're coming from.
Dear Ty,
If you preach a gospel that is contrary to that other then the gospel of Christ, I will be you opposing force. You teach a teaching that is just not so. Because if a man is not saved, and they go to your house, and you and yours lay hands on this man to put the Holy Spirit into this man, you are attempting to put what is Holy into an unclean vessel. If that vessel is not first made clean, it will not work. And if this unsaved man aquires a spirit, it will be an unclean spirit.Remember the story of the house that had the unclean spirit removed and he left and finding no rest, he went and got seven others more powerful then himself and came back to the house from where he left finding it unprotected. The house ended up in a worse state. If the order of things in God's Word are not done according to God's Word, they will not be honored. This is what caused the church to have a form of godliness, but deny the power of the Holy Spirit many eons ago. Read the sons of perdition.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 13 2006,13:32) Dear Ty,
If you preach a gospel that is contrary to that other then the gospel of Christ, I will be you opposing force. You teach a teaching that is just not so. Because if a man is not saved, and they go to your house, and you and yours lay hands on this man to put the Holy Spirit into this man, you are attempting to put what is Holy into an unclean vessel. If that vessel is not first made clean, it will not work. And if this unsaved man aquires a spirit, it will be an unclean spirit.Remember the story of the house that had the unclean spirit removed and he left and finding no rest, he went and got seven others more powerful then himself and came back to the house from where he left finding it unprotected. The house ended up in a worse state. If the order of things in God's Word are not done according to God's Word, they will not be honored. This is what caused the church to have a form of godliness, but deny the power of the Holy Spirit many eons ago. Read the sons of perdition.
H,Clearly you lack the ability to discern what I've posted concerning these things. Again, it is reception of the Holy Ghost that seals salvation (Ephes. 1:13). One is not a new creation without the Holy Ghost (Tit. 3:5). The gospel that I preach is consistent with the apostles.
It is true that God will not put His Spirit in an unclean vessel. It is the Word that sanctifies the vessel. This is clear from Acts 10:44.
Hi T,
That was certainly the case for the disciples. Does that prove it is for all?
Jn 15.3
” 3″(A)You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you”.Dear Ty,
Now, it seems then we are miscommunicating? So is the baptism of the Holy Spirit what saves a man then? The answer is no. You made it seem as if it was. So when a man is saved, he does aquire the Holy Spirit in part. Yet, it is the baptism in which he is filled. Praise God. If you agree to this, the matter is settled. This is all I asked. The way you made it sound is that a man had to have the baptism to be saved. This is not true. Yet, it is all so nessessary as to the building of the faith of the church and the believer.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 16 2006,00:18) Dear Ty, Now, it seems then we are miscommunicating? So is the baptism of the Holy Spirit what saves a man then? The answer is no. You made it seem as if it was. So when a man is saved, he does aquire the Holy Spirit in part. Yet, it is the baptism in which he is filled. Praise God. If you agree to this, the matter is settled. This is all I asked. The way you made it sound is that a man had to have the baptism to be saved. This is not true. Yet, it is all so nessessary as to the building of the faith of the church and the believer.
H,Please look back through my posts. I don't know how more clear I can be on my stance.
Hi,
This thread is about salvation in Acts. The Apostles, fresh from the teaching they had received from the Master Himself preached faith and repentance and the baptism in water and the Spirit as this was the way shown. The fruit of this work was in other men equipped to carry the torch of the Spirit of God and sent out to bring the Light to the earth.
Nothing has changed.Ty,
I read your posts and I am sorry, but I still come up with the same conclusion as to how you stand. Either you don't have it written how you believe or you do.
Here is how I see what you have written.
A man is not truely born again, saved until he repents and asks forgiveness of sin. Then he must be baptized by water. And then he must receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
When all this is complete, the man us saved? Is this your stand? Am I interpreting your writtings correctly?
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 16 2006,23:44) Ty, I read your posts and I am sorry, but I still come up with the same conclusion as to how you stand. Either you don't have it written how you believe or you do.
Here is how I see what you have written.
A man is not truely born again, saved until he repents and asks forgiveness of sin. Then he must be baptized by water. And then he must receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
When all this is complete, the man us saved? Is this your stand? Am I interpreting your writtings correctly?
H,You are interpreting what I've posted correctly.
Hi Typsrn,
That seems to agree with what Peter said in answer to the question
Acts 2.37f
“37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, (D)what shall we do?”
38Peter said to them, “(E)Repent, and each of you be (F)baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.39″For (G)the promise is for you and your children and for all who are (H)far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 17 2006,20:22) Hi Typsrn,
That seems to agree with what Peter said in answer to the question
Acts 2.37f
“37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, (D)what shall we do?”
38Peter said to them, “(E)Repent, and each of you be (F)baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.39″For (G)the promise is for you and your children and for all who are (H)far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Nick,That is exactly the point that I've been trying to make all along. In some of the other passages we see fragments of this. For example: Acts 16:30, 31 “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Notice they spake unto him the word of the Lord (Rom. 10:9-17). Just because we see the fragment, doesn't mean that the fragment constitutes the totality. Any subject viewed in scripture must be viewed in it's totality to get the full understanding of what God wants us to know about that particular subject. It is unfortunate that many today “take one scripture and run with it”. This is why there is so much confusion and so much division today in the church.
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