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Quote Hi david,
After he comes he is present.
no problemTrue, and why did he need to give a sign of his presence again?
“What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”—MATTHEW 24:3.
Hi david,
Number 3952
Transliteration:
parousia {par-oo-see'-ah}
Word Origin:
from the present participle of 3918
TDNT:
5:858,791
Part of Speech:
noun feminine
Usage in the KJV:
coming 22, presence 2Total: 24
Definition:
presence
the coming, arrival, advent
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of GodHi David,
Surely the visible kingdom of Jesus at the end of the world is as shown in Mt1340As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
and
Luke 1:32
“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;Quote Hi david,
Certainly there will be signs associated with his return.And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming [actually, “parousia”], and of the end of the world?
But Nick, why would they need or ask for a sign of his parousia if he was visible to all, as you say?
Quote Total: 24
Definition:
presence
the coming, arrival, advent
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of GodI'd like to point out that “the coming” (which many dictionaries give as a primary meaning) is a wrong definition.
Several dictionaries say that, but then,they say: “literally it means 'presence.'”
So it means presence even though it has been wrongly understood to mean “coming.” And this wrong understanding is based largerly on poor translation. For just about every dictionary will tell you it literally means: “presence.”
In fact, the Greek word from which “presence” is translated is pa·rou·si′a, formed from pa·ra′ (alongside) and ou·si′a (being; derived from ei·mi′, meaning “be”).Quote Hi David,
Surely the visible kingdom of Jesus at the end of the world is as shown in Mt13Nick, I'm really only saying his presence is invisible. His coming as spoken in many scriptures will be plain to all. But his followers asked for a sign to determine his presence.
Hi david,
Are you suggesting he needed signs of his presence because he was invisible and otherwise few would know he was back? I would suggest rather that using PAROUSIA included both his return and the reason for that return, his earthly kingdom.Quote Are you suggesting he needed signs of his presence No, I'm not suggesting Jesus needed signs of his presence. I'm suggesting that like the days of noah, so too, the days of the son of man, will be more than a few years. And I'm suggesting that he was alerting his followers as to what was to come.
And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
Quote Are you suggesting he needed signs of his presence because he was invisible and otherwise few would know he was back?
I'm suggesting, that much like Jesus illustrations, his sign would not be understood by everyone.I'm suggesting that in asking for a sign of his presence, they were wondering; What are we to look for, so as not to miss out, so as not to be blind, as the Pharisees are to your presence now, even though you are bodily present and still not recognized as the Messiah to them?’
Quote To take all the scriptures of the coming of the son of man two thousand years into the future is to ignore all the time statement mentioned in scripture. –before time
In response to their question Jesus described a composite “sign,” one made up of many evidences, including wars, earthquakes, persecution of Christians, and a preaching about the Kingdom. (Mt 24:4-14, 32, 33) The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple was under consideration when the disciples asked Jesus for the “sign” (Lu 21:5-7), and his reply gave prophecies that applied to Jerusalem and Judea, which were fulfilled during their lifetime. (Lu 21:20; Mt 24:15) But his answer also dealt with the establishment of the Kingdom of God and its effects on all mankind.—Lu 21:31, 35.
Hi david,
So you would suggest he would be sneaking up and nobody would not except the spiritually aware, rather like Peter in Jn6.
I think Rev 19 dispells that notion.Hi David:
Can the word “come” in the following scriptures be translated “presence”?
Quote Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.I don't think so. While it is probably true that every eye may not see him while he is in the air, every eye will see him in that he will come to judge every man. Christians will see him since they will be caught up to meet him in the air.
The signs that Jesus gives in Matthew 24 are for the sake of Christians so that they can remain stedfast in the faith regardless of the circumstances that they may be facing.
Also, Jesus is a man in a glorified body. The spirit dwells within the body.
Quote 1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS; God Bless
Hi david
I congratulate you for your patience.
Let me give you a sign the bible speaks of as prove for the presence of Christ.Dan. 2:44 “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:…”
“These kings”, is a reference to the ten toes of the statue. They represent mans last attempt to rule the world by one government, “The United Nation”, they are the ten toes.
Setting up a kingdom means, getting every one that will rule with Christ in his kingdom ready.
I thing we all agree the saints will rule with Christ. So first of all they have to be resurrected, and then they have to be trained in their position as kings and priests; and yes, that has been going on for some time now. That is why Jesus said his return would be like a thief; the point is, if you're a thief, you don't want to be seen.Good job david, bless you all
Georg
Tiffany,
suprisingly, I agree with almost everything you've said.But I don't look at Dan 2:44 as a sign of Christ's presence. All those governments being destroyed will be a sure unmistakable sign of his coming to execute judgement on Satan's world.
As well, I think the point of saying he'd come as a thief, is, a thief comes when you dont expect it. And so we must always be ready.
Quote Hi david,
So you would suggest he would be sneaking up and nobody would not except the spiritually aware, rather like Peter in Jn6.
I think Rev 19 dispells that notion.Nick, I think you may again be confusing his 'coming' to execute judgement on God's enemies, with his 'presence'.
MATTHEW 24:32-33
““Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.”If I remember, Rev 19 speaks of things that will be so obvious, everyone would know. I'm speaking of the sign Jesus gave so those discerning ones could recognize his presence, and be aware of what was to come.
David
Quote In response to their question Jesus described a composite “sign,” one made up of many evidences, including wars, earthquakes, persecution of Christians, and a preaching about the Kingdom. (Mt 24:4-14, 32, 33) The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple was under consideration when the disciples asked Jesus for the “sign” (Lu 21:5-7), and his reply gave prophecies that applied to Jerusalem and Judea, which were fulfilled during their lifetime. (Lu 21:20; Mt 24:15) But his answer also dealt with the establishment of the Kingdom of God and its effects on all mankind.—Lu 21:31, 35 In Matthew 23 Jesus passes judgment on Israel for shedding innocent blood saying “Your house is left to you desolate” verse (38) telling them “All this will come upon this generation” verse (36) The house obviously is the temple and the expression “this generation” is the first century audience who heard these words. Not a 2000-year or more judgment.
As the disciples leave the temple on their way to the Mount of Olives with this thought on their mind they viewed the temple and its entire splendor. The Lord tells them “It will be a pile of rocks.” Verse (2)
The disciples ask “When will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming PAROUSIA (PRESENCE) and the end of the age.” Matthew 24:3 Or the end of the Jewish economy. Take not without the temple the Jewish system ended.
Jesus gives those sign to look for as a warning of the approaching destruction, “AD 70” saying “All this will come on this generation.” Again it doesn't suggest a generation 2000 years or more into the future. Verse (34)
I'm certain in Matthew 23: 36, there is no dilemma of which generation is doomed. However, most Christians have a problem with Matthew 24:34
The importance of all this was a warning to them not to us; when they witnessed certain events it was time to get out of God's city before the destruction. (Or its time to get out of town 😉 That forewarning was not for us but for them. There are no double meanings, deception, or confusion from the Lord when He gave them the information they requested.
BT
Well said David
I'd like to point out that “the coming” (which many dictionaries give as a primary meaning) is a wrong definition.
Several dictionaries say that, but then,they say: “literally it means 'presence.'”
So it means presence even though it has been wrongly understood to mean “coming.” And this wrong understanding is based largerly on poor translation. For just about every dictionary will tell you it literally means: “presence.”
In fact, the Greek word from which “presence” is translated is pa•rou•si′a, formed from pa•ra′ (alongside) and ou•si′a (being; derived from ei•mi′, meaning “be”).Put that together with the following.
Matt 26:57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.
Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Did Caiaphas see the Son of Man coming (presence) in the clouds of heaven in his lifetime and witness His vindication. If not would that make Jesus a false prophet? When Jesus said something was near, at the door, at hand or quickly that is exactly what it meant. Rev. 22:10, 20
BT
Quote The importance of all this was a warning to them not to us; when they witnessed certain events it was time to get out of God's city before the destruction. (Or its time to get out of town 😉 That forewarning was not for us but for them. There are no double meanings, deception, or confusion from the Lord when He gave them the information they requested. When we compare Revelation 6:2-8 (written after the tribulation on Jerusalem in 70 C.E.) with Matthew 24:6-8 and Luke 21:10, 11, we see that warfare, food shortages, and plague on a greater scale lay ahead.
It seems to match rather closely what Jesus said, and we know it was speaking of things to come.“Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:1-4)
Whether they realized it or not, Jesus’ answer would have a multiple application.
The destruction of Jerusalem’s temple and the end of the Jewish system of things were not the same as the time of Christ’s presence and of the conclusion of the whole world system of things. Nonetheless, in his lengthy answer, Jesus artfully addressed all these aspects of the question. He told them what things would be like before Jerusalem’s destruction; he also told them what to expect the world to be like during his presence, when he would be ruling as King in heaven and would be on the verge of bringing the entire world system of things to its end.
If you read Matthew chapters 24 and 25, Mark chapter 13, and Luke chapter 21, you will see unmistakable evidence that Jesus was talking about our own age. He foretold a time of wars—not just the “wars and reports of wars” that have always marred human history but wars involving ‘nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom’—yes, great international wars.—Matthew 24:6-8.
We've always had wars. But we've only recently had wars that involved the whole world–world wars. Think for a moment about how warfare has changed in our century. When war meant merely the clash of armies representing two opposing nations, slashing with sabers or even firing guns at one another on a battlefield, it was terrible enough. But in 1914 the Great War broke out. Nation followed nation into the conflagration in a domino effect—the first global war.
As Rev 6 says, “peace” was “taken away from the earth” (if I remember correctly.) For us living now, it's hard to understand how that year changed history. But many historians do note the entire world changed in that year in a number of ways, and it has never recovered.War is only one aspect of the sign Jesus mentioned. He also warned that there would be “food shortages.” (Matthew 24:7) And so it has been, though paradoxically the earth is producing more food than is needed to feed all mankind, though agricultural science is more advanced than ever in human history, though speedy and efficient transportation is available to transport food anywhere in the world. Despite all of that, about one fifth of this world’s population goes hungry every day.
(See lukes account and Revelation 6)Jesus also foretold that “in one place after another” there would be “pestilences.” (Luke 21:11) Again, our age has seen a strange paradox—better medical care than ever, technological breakthroughs, vaccines to prevent many common diseases; yet pestilential diseases have made unprecedented strides as well. The Spanish Influenza followed swiftly on the heels of World War I and claimed more lives than the war did. So contagious was this disease that in cities such as New York, people could be fined or jailed just for sneezing! Today, cancer and heart disease claim millions of lives each year—veritable pestilences. And AIDS continues to strike down lives, basically unchecked by medical science.
Whereas Jesus discussed the last days largely in terms of sweeping historical and political conditions, the apostle Paul put the focus more on social problems and prevalent attitudes. He wrote, in part: “Know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, . . . disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, . . . without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5.
Do those words strike a familiar chord with you? Consider just one aspect of social decay in today’s world—the disintegration of the family. The flood tide of broken homes, battered spouses, abused children, and maltreated elderly parents—how these show that people have “no natural affection,” are “fierce,” and even “betrayers,” “without love of goodness”! Yes, we see these traits on an epidemic level today.
So yes, while there was a partial, early fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, Jesus’ words definitely pointed to the future beyond that day. About 30 years after the cataclysm that destroyed Jerusalem, Jesus gave the aged apostle John a vision showing that the prophesied conditions—war, famine, pestilence, and resultant death—were to arrive worldwide in the future. Yes, these distresses would embrace, not any one locality, but “the earth” as a whole.—Revelation 6:2-8.
Revelation 11:18 foretold that in these days when the nations are “wrathful,” mankind would be “ruining the earth.” For the first time in history, pollution and degradation of the environment now threaten the very habitability of this planet! So this feature too is seeing fulfillment in or near its ultimate degree. (I realize that in Noahs day the earth was also said to be ruined in the sight of God, so this “ruining of the earth” could of course also refer to people acting badly)
One of the most noteworthy features of the sign of the last days is recorded at Matthew 24:14: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
This too, is being fulfilled.
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