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I am starting this thread as a continuation of what T8 and I were discussing here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….st=1160
It occurs to me that no one has ever discussed this here. It should be discussed. While I of course have much to say on this, I will begin simply with this:
In the first 23 chapters of Matthew, over 80 times we find a common Greek verb for “come,” which is eŕkho·mai.
It often conveys the thought of approaching or drawing near, as at John 1:47: “Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him.”
Depending on usage, the verb eŕkho·mai can mean “arrive,” “go,” “get to,” “reach,” or “be on one’s way.” (Matthew 2:8, 11; 8:28; John 4:25, 27, 45; 20:4, 8; Acts 8:40; 13:51)But at Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39, Matthew used a different word, a noun found nowhere else in the Gospels: pa·rou·sía.
Since God inspired the writing of the Bible, why did he move Matthew to choose this Greek word in these verses when penning his Gospel in Greek?The fact is, Christ does much more than simply “return.” That word, like “coming,” implies a single event in a brief moment of time. But the Greek word that Jesus and his followers used means much more. The word is pa·rou·sía, literally meaning a “being alongside” or a “presence.”
Most scholars agree that this word incorporates not only an arrival but also a subsequent presence—as in a State visit from a royal personage. This presence is not a momentary event; it is a special era, a marked period of time.
At Matthew 24:37 the Greek word pa·rou·sía is used. Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford, 1968) gives “presence, of persons,” as its first definition of pa·rou·sía.
The sense of the word is clearly indicated at Philippians 2:12, where Paul contrasts his presence (pa·rou·sía) with his absence (a·pou·sía).
On the other hand, in Matthew 24:30, which tells of the “Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” as Jehovah’s executioner at the war of Armageddon, the Greek word er·khóme·non is used.
Some translators use ‘coming’ for both Greek words, but those that are more careful convey the difference between the two.
Matt. 24:37-39:
“Just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [“coming,” RS, TEV; “presence,” Yg, Ro, ED; Greek, pa·rou·sía] of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
(The events of “the days of Noah” that are described here took place over a period of many years. Jesus compared his presence with what occurred back then. Noah was building the ark and warning the wicked for decades before the Flood arrived and wiped out that corrupt world system. Likewise, then, Christ’s presence lasts over a period of perhaps many decades before it too culminates in a great tribulation and destruction.)
Undoubtedly, the pa·rou·sía is not literally visible to human eyes. If it were, why would Jesus spend so much time, as I will discuss later, giving his followers a sign to help them to discern this presence? (Mat 24:3)However, when Christ comes to destroy Satan’s world system, the fact of his presence will be overwhelmingly manifest to all. It is then that “every eye will see him.” Even Jesus’ opponents will be able to discern, to their dismay, that Christ’s reign is real.—See Matthew 24:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Revelation 1:5, 6.
Since no one to my knowledge has ever even mentioned Christ's presence on this forum, I don't even know what to ask.
I guess I'm mostly wanting a comment from T8
david
T8, could you possibly change the Title to:
“Christ's PAROUSIA (PRESENCE)”I'm not sure what happened there.
Thanks.***
I just want to put this down now, before I forget:
C L O U D
Jehovah, whom no man can see, symbolizes his presence by a cloud.
–At the time of giving the Law to Israel, a cloud covered the mountain. “I am coming to you in a dark cloud,” (Ex 19:9) Out of the cloud came lightnings and thunder, the blare of a trumpet, and a loud voice. (Ex 19:16-19; 24:15; Heb 12:18, 19)
It was representative of Jehovah’s presence.–When the tabernacle was set up in the wilderness, the cloud resided over it and “Jehovah’s glory filled the tabernacle,” so that Moses was unable to enter. (Ex 40:34, 35; compare 1Ki 8:10-12; Re 15:8.) After this the cloud stood over the Most Holy, in which was the ark of the covenant, and the cloud became a pillar of fire at night. Doubtless this cloud was visible from any part of the camp, marking the camp’s center.
–Inside the Most Holy, over the ark of the covenant, was a cloud that was very brilliant, the only light to illuminate that compartment. (Le 16:2) When the high priest went into the Most Holy on Atonement Day with the blood of animals, he was symbolically standing in the presence of Jehovah. At other times, when he did not go into the Most Holy but stood before the curtain to present a matter of importance to Jehovah for his answer, he was considered as standing before Jehovah.—Nu 27:21.
–In one instance Jehovah’s own voice was heard out of a bright cloud, expressing approval of his only-begotten Son. This was the brilliant cloud overshadowing Jesus and his three apostles Peter, James, and John on the mount of the transfiguration.—Mt 17:5.
When Jesus ascended into heaven, according to the record, “a cloud caught him up from their vision.” (Ac 1:9) The disciples did not see Jesus riding away on a cloud, but rather, the cloud obscured their vision of him. This helps us to understand Jesus’ words concerning his presence: “They will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory,” and Revelation’s statement: “He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.” (Lu 21:27; Mt 24:30; Re 1:7) In past cases clouds represented invisible presence; but observers could “see” the meaning with their mental “eyes.” In this case the physical occurrences that are visible would cause the one looking to “see” or realize that Christ is invisibly present.—See also Mt 24; Mr 13; Re 14:14.
Hi david,
You say
“But at Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39, Matthew used a different word, a noun found nowhere else in the Gospels: pa·rou·sía.
Since God inspired the writing of the Bible, why did he move Matthew to choose this Greek word in these verses when penning his Gospel in Greek?”Do you regard Jn20 21 as equivalent?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come[2064], what is that to thee? follow thou me.
What of Lk 21.27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming[2064] in a cloud with power and great glory.
Mk13.26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming [2064]in the clouds with great power and glory.Mk 8.38
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh [2064]in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.Seems the word means to COME
Just as Acts 1 shows he will return in the same way he was seen leaving.
Quote Seems the word means to COME Yes, seems the word you are considering does mean “come.”
But we're considering this word: [3952] (The word from Mat 24:3 for example)
Although the king James translates it “coming” it also translates “passover” as “easter” doesn't it?
Note my first post, where I said: “Some translators use ‘coming’ for both Greek words, but those that are more careful convey the difference between the two.”Anyway, now that we have the right word….
Quote Just as Acts 1 shows he will return in the same way he was seen leaving. Acts 1:9-11:
“While they [Jesus’ apostles] were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, and they said: ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky WILL COME THUS IN THE SAME MANNER as you have beheld him going into the sky.’”The world in general was not aware of what happened. Jesus’ departure was observed only by his loyal followers. The same would be true of Christ’s return. Only his faithful anointed disciples would discern his royal presence.
I guess at this point I can again ask:
Undoubtedly, the pa·rou·sía is not literally visible to human eyes. If it were, why would Jesus spend so much time, as I will discuss later, giving his followers a sign to help them to discern this presence? (Mat 24:3)And right now you're wanting to quote things like:
Quote Mk13.26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming [2064]in the clouds with great power and glory.Right, hence my discussion on the difference of his coming and his invisible presence which precedes it.
David
Matthew records in his Gospel. They consist of passages such as Mt 10:23; 16:27-28; 24:34 and 26:64.These are the words of Jesus Christ speaking to His disciples and, in the case of the latter verse, to Caiphas and likely the Sanhedrin council as well. The presents of Christ was in the first century when He came in judgment in AD 70 upon the Jewish people. The reason for the destruction is stated in Matthew chapter 23.
Jesus was well aware of the onslaught for all eyes to see, with the eyes of understanding, at that time of Jerusalem’s annihilation, temple included, what He said would take place. Matthew 24
Luke 23:28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, don't weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.
To take all the scriptures of the coming of the son of man two thousand years into the future is to ignore all the time statement mentioned in scripture. If something says it is near, at the door, soon or quickly or this generation etc. means what it says. Go to a good concordance and type these in to understand what is being said. Even for the coming of the Son of Man.
BT
Quote (david @ Aug. 23 2008,03:03) Quote Just as Acts 1 shows he will return in the same way he was seen leaving. Acts 1:9-11:
“While they [Jesus’ apostles] were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, and they said: ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky WILL COME THUS IN THE SAME MANNER as you have beheld him going into the sky.’”The world in general was not aware of what happened. Jesus’ departure was observed only by his loyal followers. The same would be true of Christ’s return. Only his faithful anointed disciples would discern his royal presence.
I guess at this point I can again ask:
Undoubtedly, the pa·rou·sía is not literally visible to human eyes. If it were, why would Jesus spend so much time, as I will discuss later, giving his followers a sign to help them to discern this presence? (Mat 24:3)And right now you're wanting to quote things like:
Quote Mk13.26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming [2064]in the clouds with great power and glory.Right, hence my discussion on the difference of his coming and his invisible presence which precedes it.
Hi David,
My point was that another common word meaning COME can stand alongside COMING indicating it did not have a mystical meaning.Acts1
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.So to you this means that only a few loyal men will discern the presence of Jesus when he returns? It rather looks to me that is means human eyes will see him return in exactly the way he had left. Why add mysticism to what is plain?
Hi David:
People are marrying and being given in marriage even not ignoring the gospel that is being preached to them even as they ignored Noah when he was building the ark, and they will continue to ignore the gospel until it is too late, and they will be destroyed by the seven last plagues even as those in the time of Noah were destroyed by the flood.
Jesus presence is not something that is going to be invisible as the following scripture states: “every eye shall see him”.
Quote Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen God Bless
Hi all!
Can anyone show me where the scriptures says there is a secret coming and then another coming?
That would be 3 comings would it not?
Traditional church theology holds that the “rapture” will secretly take place, taking only the saved away and leaving all the rest to tribulation and destruction.
It is generally taught that believers will be sitting down in heaven eating supper with Yeshua while the rest of mankind is in terrible tribulation and torments.
Not true. Not found in scriptures.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Meeting Jesus in the air is not his rule on earth.
His rule on earth begins with his feet on the mountain.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 23 2008,10:13) Hi all! Can anyone show me where the scriptures says there is a secret coming and then another coming?
That would be 3 comings would it not?
Traditional church theology holds that the “rapture” will secretly take place, taking only the saved away and leaving all the rest to tribulation and destruction.
It is generally taught that believers will be sitting down in heaven eating supper with Yeshua while the rest of mankind is in terrible tribulation and torments.
Not true. Not found in scriptures.
WJ
Hi Brother WJ:I believe a secret rapture is taught because the scripture states the the Lord will come “like a thief in the night” as the following scripture states:
Quote 1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.But no, there is no secret rapture the following verse explains:
Quote 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.Elsewhere, our Lord tells us to “watch and pray”.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 23 2008,11:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 23 2008,10:13) Hi all! Can anyone show me where the scriptures says there is a secret coming and then another coming?
That would be 3 comings would it not?
Traditional church theology holds that the “rapture” will secretly take place, taking only the saved away and leaving all the rest to tribulation and destruction.
It is generally taught that believers will be sitting down in heaven eating supper with Yeshua while the rest of mankind is in terrible tribulation and torments.
Not true. Not found in scriptures.
WJ
Hi Brother WJ:I believe a secret rapture is taught because the scripture states the the Lord will come “like a thief in the night” as the following scripture states:
Quote 1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.But no, there is not secret rapture the following verse explains:
Quote 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.Elsewhere, our Lord tells us to “watch and pray”.
God Bless
94So then to you there is 3 comings of Christ?
Thief in the night is simply an anology to be ready when he returns. '…but let us watch and be sober”. Just as you do not know when a thief will break into your house, so you do not know the day nor the hour of his return.
Scriptures are clear about the “day of the Lord” as being one event.
I don't have much time, but I challenge you to do a study of “the day of the Lord”.
By the way, how do you get “secret rapture” and “no secret rapture” in the same chapter and context?
Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2008,10:21) Hi WJ,
Meeting Jesus in the air is not his rule on earth.
His rule on earth begins with his feet on the mountain.
NHMeeting the Lord in the air is simply the place of meeting for the believers when Yeshua returns back to the earth.
Remember he said “in like manner he shall return”.
Yeshua didn't start to ascend and then return back and then ascend again.
This is “One event”.
The day of the Lord is not a twofold coming, once for his saints and then once to set up his Kingdom.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 23 2008,13:00) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 23 2008,11:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 23 2008,10:13) Hi all! Can anyone show me where the scriptures says there is a secret coming and then another coming?
That would be 3 comings would it not?
Traditional church theology holds that the “rapture” will secretly take place, taking only the saved away and leaving all the rest to tribulation and destruction.
It is generally taught that believers will be sitting down in heaven eating supper with Yeshua while the rest of mankind is in terrible tribulation and torments.
Not true. Not found in scriptures.
WJ
Hi Brother WJ:I believe a secret rapture is taught because the scripture states the the Lord will come “like a thief in the night” as the following scripture states:
Quote 1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.But no, there is not secret rapture the following verse explains:
Quote 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.Elsewhere, our Lord tells us to “watch and pray”.
God Bless
94So then to you there is 3 comings of Christ?
Thief in the night is simply an anology to be ready when he returns. '…but let us watch and be sober”. Just as you do not know when a thief will break into your house, so you do not know the day nor the hour of his return.
Scriptures are clear about the “day of the Lord” as being one event.
I don't have much time, but I challenge you to do a study of “the day of the Lord”.
By the way, how do you get “secret rapture” and “no secret rapture” in the same chapter and context?
Blessings WJ
Hi Brother WJ:I was agreeing with you. I only see the Lord coming for the church in that event called the rapture, but this not a secret event. The scripture states that “every eye shall see him”.
I do believe that the Lord will come to the earth and establish his kingdom on earth after the 1000 year reign which I believe is in heaven.
God Bless
Hi WJ:
I thought I was agreeing with you, but maybe I am not understanding what you are saying. Are you saying that when the Lord comes for the church that he will set up his kingdom on earth at that time?
Hi 94,
“I do believe that the Lord will come to the earth and establish his kingdom on earth after the 1000 year reign which I believe is in heaven.”Earth or heaven?
Jesus’ Coming or Jesus’ Presence—Which?
“What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”—MATTHEW 24:3.
At Matthew 24:3, we find one of the most important questions Jesus ever answered. Jesus had just warned that Jerusalem’s temple would be destroyed, marking the end of the Jewish system. Matthew’s account adds: “While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: ‘Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [“coming,” King James Version] and of the conclusion of the system of things?’”—Matthew 24:3.
In his reply Jesus spoke of the appearance of leaves showing that summer “is near.” (Matthew 24:32, 33) Hence, many churches teach that the apostles were asking for a sign of Jesus’ “coming,” the sign proving that his return was imminent. But is this correct?
Instead of the rendering “coming,” some Bible versions,use the word “presence.” Could it be that what the disciples asked about and what Jesus said in reply differ from what is taught in churches? What really was asked? And what answer did Jesus give?What Were They Asking?
In view of what Jesus said about the temple, the disciples likely were thinking of the Jewish arrangement when they asked for ‘a sign of his presence [or, “coming”] and the conclusion of the system of things [literally, “age”].’—Compare “world” at 1 Corinthians 10:11 and Galatians 1:4, KJ.
At this point the apostles had but a limited grasp of Jesus’ teachings. They had earlier imagined that “the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly.” (Luke 19:11; Matthew 16:21-23; Mark 10:35-40) And even after the discussion on the Mount of Olives, but prior to being anointed with holy spirit, they asked if Jesus was restoring the Kingdom to Israel then.—Acts 1:6.
Yet, they did know that he would leave, for he had recently said: “The light will be among you a little while longer. Walk while you have the light.” (John 12:35; Luke 19:12-27) So they might well have wondered, ‘If Jesus is going to leave, how will we recognize his return?’ When he appeared as the Messiah, most did not recognize him. And over a year later, questions persisted about whether he would fulfill all that the Messiah was to do. (Matthew 11:2, 3) So the apostles had reason to inquire about the future. But, again, were they asking for a sign that he would soon come or for something different?What Matthew Wrote—In Greek
What did Matthew write in Greek about that conversation on the Mount of Olives? What did he write about the “coming” or “presence” that the disciples asked about and that Jesus commented on?
In the first 23 chapters of Matthew, over 80 times we find a common Greek verb for “come,” which is eŕkho·mai. It often conveys the thought of approaching or drawing near, as at John 1:47: “Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him.” Depending on usage, the verb eŕkho·mai can mean “arrive,” “go,” “get to,” “reach,” or “be on one’s way.” (Matthew 2:8, 11; 8:28; John 4:25, 27, 45; 20:4, 8; Acts 8:40; 13:51) But at Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39, Matthew used a different word, a noun found nowhere else in the Gospels: pa·rou·sía. Since God inspired the writing of the Bible, why did he move Matthew to choose this Greek word in these verses when penning his Gospel in Greek? Pointedly, pa·rou·sía means “presence.” Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says: “PAROUSIA, . . . lit[erally], a presence, para, with, and ousia, being (from eimi, to be), denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property.” Other lexicons explain that pa·rou·sía denotes ‘the visit of a ruler.’ Hence, it is not just the moment of arrival, but a presence extending from the arrival onward. Interestingly, that is how Jewish historian Josephus, a contemporary of the apostles, used pa·rou·sía.
Examples from Josephus: At Mount Sinai lightning and thunder “declared God to be there present [pa·rou·sía].” The miraculous manifestation in the tabernacle “showed the presence [pa·rou·sía] of God.” By showing Elisha’s servant the encircling chariots, God made “manifest to his servant his power and presence [pa·rou·sía].” When Roman official Petronius tried to appease the Jews, Josephus claimed that ‘God did show his presence [pa·rou·sía] to Petronius’ by sending rain. Josephus did not apply pa·rou·sía to a mere approach or momentary arrival. It meant an ongoing, even invisible, presence. (Exodus 20:18-21; 25:22; Leviticus 16:2; 2 Kings 6:15-17)—Compare Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3, chapter 5, paragraph 2 [80]; chapter 8, paragraph 5 [203]; Book 9, chapter 4, paragraph 3 [55]; Book 18, chapter 8, paragraph 6 [284].
The meaning “presence” is clearly borne out by ancient literature, yet Christians are particularly interested in how God’s Word uses pa·rou·sía. The answer is the same—presence. We see that from examples in Paul’s letters. For instance, he wrote to the Philippians: “In the way that you have always obeyed, not during my PRESENCE only, but now much more readily during my ABSENCE, keep working out your own salvation.” He also spoke of abiding with them that they might exult “through [his] presence [pa·rou·sía] again with [them].” (Philippians 1:25, 26; 2:12) Other versions read “my being with you again” (Weymouth; New International Version); “when I am with you again” (Jerusalem Bible; New English Bible); and “when you once more have me among you.” (Twentieth Century New Testament) At 2 Corinthians 10:10, 11, Paul contrasted “his presence in person” with being “absent.” In these examples he plainly was not speaking of his approach or arrival; he used pa·rou·sía in the sense of being present. (Compare 1 Corinthians 16:17.)
What, though, about references to Jesus’ pa·rou·sía? Are they with the sense of his “coming,” or do they indicate an extended presence?
Spirit-anointed Christians in Paul’s day were interested in Jesus’ pa·rou·sía. But Paul warned them not to be ‘shaken from their reason.’ First there must appear “the man of lawlessness,” which has proved to be the clergy of Christendom. Paul wrote that “the lawless one’s PRESENCE is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs.” (2 Thessalonians 2:2, 3, 9) Plainly, the pa·rou·sía, or presence, of “the man of lawlessness” was not just a momentary arrival; it would extend over time, during which lying signs would be produced. Why is this significant?
Consider the verse immediately before that: “The lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his PRESENCE.” Just as the presence of “the man of lawlessness” would be over a period of time, Jesus’ presence would extend for some time and would climax in the destruction of that lawless “son of destruction.”—2 Thessalonians 2:8.*
Jesus urged his followers to stay alert. He provided a sign so that his presence could be recognized, though most would take no note: “As the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”—Matthew 24:37-39.
During the days of Noah, most people of that generation
just carried on with their normal affairs. Jesus foretold that it would be the same with “the presence of the Son of man.” The people around Noah might have felt that nothing would happen. You know differently. Those days, WHICH SPREAD OVER TIME, led to a climax, “the flood came and swept them all away.” Luke presents a similar account in which Jesus compared “the days of Noah” with “the days of the Son of man.”
Jesus admonished: “The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.”—Luke 17:26-30.
All of this takes on special meaning for us because we are living at a time when we recognize the events that Jesus foretold—wars, earthquakes, pestilences, food shortages, and persecution of his disciples. (Matthew 24:7-9; Luke 21:10-12) Such have been in evidence since the history-changing conflict significantly named World War I, though most people treat these as normal parts of history. True Christians, however, sense the meaning of these momentous events, just as alert people understand from the leafing of a fig tree that summer is near. Jesus advised: “In this way you also, when you see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near.”—Luke 21:31.
–Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom, 1996, 8/15, p. 13,14Hi david,
Yes he will come and be present.
Not some sort of ghost that is only seen by some but he will ruled from David's throne in Jerusalem.Quote I don't have much time, but I challenge you to do a study of “the day of the Lord”. Ok, let's start with this verse:
“As the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”—Matthew 24:37-39.Jesus compared “the days of Noah” with the days of the Son of man.
Do you consider this presence of the Lord, the beginning of the Lord's day?I do.
By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, (Rev 1:10)
Most everything in Revelation takes place in the lord's day.REVELATION 6:1-17
“And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as of thunder: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest. And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him. And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de·nar′i·us, and three quarts of barley for a de·nar′i·us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.” And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha′des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.Have you ever noticed how the things mentioned here, above, mirror the events Jesus described in Matthew 24? And in Mat 24, it speaks of Jesus Parousia (presence.) In Revelation 6, we see horseman. One is on a white horse and has a crown. He went forth conquering and to complete his conquest. Then, after this, horrible things for the earth.
Compare this to :
REVELATION 12:7-10
“And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!”Here, Satan is hurled down to the earth, and this results in a time of “woe” for the earth, if we read on. Again, this matches Mat 24.
I believe Jesus, as crowned king, hurled Satan out of heaven, his first act as king. This was the beginning of the last days or the “conclusion of the system of things (world).” Ever since then, we have been in Jesus presence, and have been experiencing the things mentioned in Mat 24; Rev 6 and the woe for the earth of Revelation 12. As well, Jesus is directing the disciple making work. And we have the global preaching of the kingdom as also fortold. (Mat 24:14) But it is woe for the earth, with it's earthquakes, wars, pestilences, etc. Satan is mad, and has little time. We are in the “last days” of this world. Satan has already been expelled from heaven, and he's angry.
Perhaps you've also noticed that the world changed significantly when, for the first time, the whole world went to war, 1914.
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