Christians who Kill

[Cubes]

Quote (david @ May 29 2006,03:21)

Cubes, I will comment on the rest of your posts later.  I have to be somewhere now. david

No rush. At your leisure.

[seekingtruth]

David,
Just as Cubes posted (good posts by the way), there is a practical and spiritual. With the spiritual we are fed by every word which proceeds from God, but the practical (as stated in James) says we should meet others physical needs as it is within our ability.

The pharisees also took good scriptures and overemphasized adherence beyond their intention. No one here is saying we want to go to war, personally I have never even hit someone in anger or defense of myself, but I believe I would (and should) defend the defenseless.

Scripture is taking the whole in proper balance.

[david]

Just out of curiousity, what are these “defenceless” countries we keep referring to? Canada? New Zealand? Iraq? Vatican City?

Iraq has had their major cities captured. Are they defenceless enough yet for you to defend them? There have been civilian causulties. So, you'll go to Iraq and find a machine gun and defend Iraq? They do seem defenceless. Many viewed the invasion on Iraq as a violation of international law, breaking the UN charter. Koki Anan, secretary General of the UN stated on the BBC news that it was an “illegal” act that “contravened the UN charter.” So it could be called “illegal,” the reporter asked him. “If you wish,” was the responce. Of course, they tried to make it seem like they had backing, gaining a “coilitian of the willing,” made of up 30 countries, a very odd list of countries if you look at it, really, anyone they could find. Other than their friends the UK, they didn't really have support. Yet, off they went.
Bush has since stated that “much of the intellegence turned out to be wrong.” (3d speech before Iraqi vote)

hmmm. Human intellegence wrong? What? hmmm. There couldn't be any ulterior motives here, could there? The reasons for the invasion changed over time.

Anyway, I don't know much about this war–just what the U.S. News channels tell me and what the encyclopedia I just read through said. But in such a war, it does not seem that the U.S. is the “defenceless” ones.

The Iraqi civilians caught in the middle of this war over Iraq seem to be the defenceless ones. Would you consider defending Iraq?
Or are there other requirements for a country to gain your help in defence?

It seems to me that whichever country 'YOU' live in is the defenceless one.
Are there presently an defenceless countries and are you willing to defend?

[seekingtruth]

David,
I was not necessarily talking about war David but the principal is the same. You seem to have a dislike for the US. after all, we must not be very smart since we only want oil and yet we invaded Afghanistan (lots of it there). However I noticed you quoting the UN (now that's scary).

Of course now I've used your tactic, change the subject to something less related where you position your opponents argument on something less defensible (you must have done well in debate class). Since I'm sure you'll ask for an example, you always change, defending others, to warmongering.

[david]

I thought this topic was on whether or not Christians should go to war and kill.
I know no one here is saying that they “want” to go to war. Cubes has said that several times, as have you. That is not the question. The question is, will you? Is it right to, for a follower of Christ, to kill people for human governments? No one wants to go to war and kill people, or so they say. Yet, it happens all the time.

I don't have a dislike for the U.S. I love disneyworld. It's one of my favorite places. I'm going there in the winter. You have some great cities. I've been to many of them. I was in New York and Washington 2 weeks after 9/11. But I imagined you were from the U.S. Based on your above post, you are. So I use that as an example. Will the U.S.A ever be the “defenceless” ones you want to defend? It seems there would be more criteria involved, otherwise….
I was quoting the general secretary, to show that even governments do things that are illegal. One goes to war because their government sanctions it. But what if that government is breaking international law in doing so?

So based on your lack of response, am I to assume that there are other requirements for defending a country?

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I was not necessarily talking about war David but the principal is the same.

‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
This is not necessarily talking about war, but the principle is the same.

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The pharisees also took good scriptures and overemphasized adherence beyond their intention.

So what level of emphasis do you put on the principle Jesus stated above? Any? In what way does it affect you? The principle Jesus stated is still true. Jesus said something (return your sword to it's place) and expained some reasoning (for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.) This principle hasn't changed. Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.

Those words sound similar to these:
GENESIS 9:6
“Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.”
(All mankind today are descendants of Noah; hence, this divine law that emphasizes respect for life is binding on all humans who desire God’s approval.)

Am I overemphasising this scripture?
LUKE 21:20-21
““Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judéa begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her;”

(In those days, Jewish factions were fighting one another, both verbally and by shedding blood. But Jesus’ disciples did not get mixed up in those revolutionary campaigns. For some 30 years they waited in Jerusalem. Then they obeyed Jesus’ prophetic sign by “fleeing to the mountains.” Their neutral stance and their flight resulted in their salvation.)

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Of course now I've used your tactic, change the subject to something less related where you position your opponents argument on something less defensible (you must have done well in debate class). Since I'm sure you'll ask for an example, you always change, defending others, to warmongering.

I don't think I changed the subject. It's easy to say something, but real life practicalisms bring things into perspective. War is real. You live in the U.S. There is a war. Somewhere in this war, there are those that need defending. They are not in your country. The war is not being fought on your land.
I'm just wondering how you will actually put into practice your defending of the defenceless.

While I have read books on logic and reasoning, and spent most of my life studying how people are decieved, I've never been in debate class. I am quite a quiet person and was teasingly called “Mr. Mute” for a while in school. I think often when you are not directly speaking to the person, a different image is portrayed.

Quote

Of course now I've used your tactic, change the subject to something less related where you position your opponents argument on something less defensible

What did I say that you find hard to defend? What do you consider “less defensible”? You are defending human warefare. I am showing war for what it is.

david.

[seekingtruth]

“I thought this topic was on whether or not Christians should go to war and kill.”
It is titled “Christians who Kill” Police are also put in positions of defense which result in shooting someone. I had a Christian friend who was a police detective he had to shoot and had been shot a couple of times.

“I love disneyworld. It's one of my favorite places. I'm going there in the winter.”
We do agree on something, I'll be there too.

“Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God?”
It sounds noble but he was fighting against Gods will.

“What did I say that you find hard to defend? What do you consider “less defensible”? You are defending human warefare.”
Thank you, you proved my point. I'm talking defending the defenseless but you group it under all warfare. I have stated in these posts that I could not participate in a war which was aggressive and if it was a war defending the defenseless, I would still only want to help in non-combative ways.

what I do defend is that God has setup authorities and it is within their mandate to govern and protect their people. I'm not going to defend everything the US does, I don't agree with all of it either.

[david]

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Thank you, you proved my point. I'm talking defending the defenseless but you group it under all warfare. I have stated in these posts that I could not participate in a war which was aggressive and if it was a war defending the defenseless, I would still only want to help in non-combative ways.

So then, you wouldn't go to war? Is that what you're saying?

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what I do defend is that God has setup authorities and it is within their mandate to govern and protect their people. I'm not going to defend everything the US does, I don't agree with all of it either.

You're right. The U.S. (or any country for that matter) is only human, and do wrong things. They are not perfect. They are HUMAN governments that God, the universal soverieign and ultimate ruler has allowed to rule for our benefit, so their is not utter chaos, until his kingdom removes all these human kingdoms.

We must realize that God is the one who told us to obey these superior authorities. And that God is above them. It is God that let's them exist. And it is God's kingdom that Christians should have their ultimate allegience to. Yes, we live in the world, but we are no part of it. Yes, we live in a country, but we look to God's kingdom for the real solutions.

Yes, it is within their mandate to govern and protect the people.

However in the Bible, we do have examples of worshipers of God who disregarded the government when it meant violating God's laws. God is above human governments. If the two conflict, would it not be wise to follow these words:
“We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”

Here's something else: They are to govern and protect. What if they decide that preaching the good news is “subversive,” and ban or outlaw you from talking to others about the Bible or the good news of the kingdom? It's happened over and over again to us. They say they are protecting. Usually, it's a time of war that this happens, as citizens will allow the governement to do whatever it feels like in such times. Questions aren't asked.
So, God says to preach. The governement which God is allowing to rule says you may not preach. Whom do you obey?

There are examples of ones in the Bible who flatly refused to follow governement orders, even though it would mean their death. They were obeying higher orders–from God.

Does not this make sense?

Yes, God has “set up authorities.” So clearly if God says one thing and the authority that he has put us under says something contrary, whom do we obey?

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I'm talking defending the defenseless but you group it under all warfare.

It is differnet to choose to be a soldier and go to war and kill other people for whatever purpose the government decides, whether it is called “defending freedom,” or whatever other fancy pretty words you give it–there is a difference between taking and choosing such an active role and having the war come to you. If in your backyard, there are people dying, save them, hide them in your basement, run, or defend yourself. But if it means you have to kill othes, that is between you and God.
GENESIS 9:6
“Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.”
Man is made in God's image. Are you going to judge man, made in God's image, as worthy of death? If God gives life, who are you to take it? It's a question you should consider.

Again, there is a difference between defending yourself when attacked and choosing to go to war and being trained to kill. Do you see any difference?

Seeking truth, I'm sorry if you haven't specifically been talking about war, and I assumed wrongly. It's just that for the last 15 pages or so, that has been the topic. If I am talking about war and you are talking about defending yourself from a personal attack, no wonder there is confusion.

david

[Cubes]

Hi David:

I hope to read and respond to your last post on page 16 sometime later in the week, given my schedule.

I skimmed through the above post and would like you to clarify this if you don't mind as I don't see the difference beyond scale/proportion and duration:

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Again, there is a difference between defending yourself when attacked and choosing to go to war and being trained to kill. Do you see any difference?

… bottomline being that the objective tends to be the same: a person or group of persons protecting themselves from another person or group.

[david]

War is rarely “defending the innocent.” There are two sides to every war. Most often, both sides are wrong, or partially wrong. War accomplishes many things. If “war” was solely about defending the innocent, and everyone understood this and everyone agreed on who these defenceless ones were, there would be no war.

When you choose to become a soldier, choose to take up arms, choose to follow your government in it's path of war, for whatever their reason, or reasons, whatever the purpose, choose in advance that killing for other humans is an acceptable thing, that you want to be trained in this, that going to another country and killing certain ones whom your government want dead….
Do you not see a difference between this and defending yourself when someone intrudes upon your house, as an example?

[Cubes]

Hi David:

I'd hoped to get to your post yesterday or today (June 2 or 3) but have not been able to. I was doing the Martha stuff that is a drag but necessary and have also just been called to work tonight so my down time to tend to responses is shot for now. I am looking forward to get back to you soon, though.

[david]

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I skimmed through the above post and would like you to clarify this if you don't mind as I don't see the difference beyond scale/proportion and duration: Quote Again, there is a difference between defending yourself when attacked and choosing to go to war and being trained to kill. Do you see any difference? … bottomline being that the objective tends to be the same: a person or group of persons protecting themselves from another person or group.

Hey Cubes.
I believe it was seekingtruth who quoted this scripture in the “love among all” thread:
The law stated:

Quote

Exodus 22:2 “If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;

Cubes, you said: “I don't see the difference beyond scale/proportion and duration.”
Killing is wrong. But in this case, in the law, a defender was not guilty of bloodshed.
I had said: “there is a difference between defending yourself when attacked and choosing to go to war and being trained to kill.”
In the scripture above, the law stated that a man was not guilty of bloodshed if the thief is struck so that he dies by the defender.

Here is another example of relative subjection:
Children are told to be “obedient to your parents.” (eph 6:1) If a Father tells a son to kill someone that the father dislikes, this is wrong. Killing is wrong. Whose authority is greater–God's or the parents? Yes, God said to obey your parents, but when doing so directly conflicts with or violates God's laws, whom do you obey?

david

[Cubes]

Quote (david @ May 29 2006,03:20)

Quote If you want to do away with “it is written…” and replace it with “early christians” or whatever, that would be your prerogative, but I do not advise it. My experience as a christian has taught me that Jesus does quote from the OT scriptures and did often point to them to explain his position. No, nothing of the sort.  I began using scriptures.  I began talking about the tremendous differences between the wars of Israel, (wars which clearly had God's backing) and the wars of today.  But we seem to disagree on scripture. So, since Jesus and the apostles had it right…. They did have it right, didn't they Cubes?  [yes] And the ones they taught that came directly after them most likely were not misunderstanding them…. right?  I mean, those who lived in the first century for example, they had the example of the early Christians, they actually saw what the early Christians believed in how they acted to certain situations.  At some point in time, something changed, JUST AS FORTOLD.  Now, because the early Christians who saw firsthand or secondhand through great grandparents how Jesus and his true followers lived and what they believed–because these early Christians felt so strongly against going to war, so strongly that they would rather surrender their lives than kill others–does not this make you wonder?  Of course this refusal to go to war changed, as fortold.  Many things changed.  Suddenly, it was ok for christians to be a part of the world, to be involved in politics and war, etc. I believe this is a strong line of reasoning, and an example to follow.  Paul said: 'Become imitators of me, even as I am of Christ.' Eventually, people were not so closely imitating Paul or Christ.  That is clear.    Anyway, I have used Scriptures.  But since we disagree on them, I thought the best place to look would be with the earliest Christians.  When I say “early Christians” I don't just mean the ones who lived 200 years after Christ, I mean those who lived from the time of Christ to 160-180 C.E. Ok, so let's start back at the beginning.  I'll show you the scriptures that compel me to believe that the early Christians were basing their unwillingness to go to war on the the following scriptures.  Then, you can again show me which scriptures you use to support the belief that the early Christians were wrong in not going to war and that Christians should go to war. LUKE 22:49 “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?” MATTHEW. 26:52 “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’” (Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.) MATTHEW 22:39 “The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’” JOHN 15:14,17 “YOU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU. . . .These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another.” LUKE 6:27, 28: “I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.” JOHN 13:35 “By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”” 1 JOHN 4:20 “If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.” 1 JOHN 3:10-12 “The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.” (No Christian can war against another Christian—it would be like a man fighting himself.) ISAIAH 2:2-4 “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded Jehovah’s judgment give evidence that he is their God.) 2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.” (Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.) MICAH 4:3 “And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” JOHN 17:6 “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (When the WORLD goes to war, what does a Christian do?) MATTHEW 5:9 ““Happy are the peaceable,” (See 2 Cor 13:11) ROMANS 12:17-21 “Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men.  Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.”  Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” ROMANS 13:10 “Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.” JOHN 6:15 “Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.” JOHN 18:36 (Jesus told the Roman governor) “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” JAMES 4:4 “Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as 1 John 5:19 says, “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as being “the ruler of the world.” So, no matter what worldly faction a person might support, under whose control would he really come?) ACTS 4:19 “But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to YOU rather than to God, judge for yourselves.” ACTS 5:29 “In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” MATTHEW 22:21 “Pay back . . . Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to G od.” (When Caesar demands what belongs to God, we must acknowledge that God has the prior claim.) REVELATION 13:10 “If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.” GENESIS 9:6 “Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.” (All mankind today are descendants of Noah; hence, this divine law that emphasizes respect for life is binding on all humans who desire God’s approval.) ROMANS 12:19-21 “Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” LUKE 21:20-21 ““Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judéa begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her;” (In those days, Jewish factions were fighting one another, both verbally and by shedding blood. But Jesus’ disciples did not get mixed up in those revolutionary campaigns. For some 30 years they waited in Jerusalem. Then they obeyed Jesus’ prophetic sign by “fleeing to the mountains.” Their neutral stance and their flight resulted in their salvation.) “A slave of the Lord does not need to fight.”–2 Timothy 2:24   (While the context shows that Paul was here referring to verbal fights, the original language word rendered “fight” (ma?khe?sthai) is generally associated with armed or hand-to-hand combat.) PSALM 2:2 “The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,” DANIEL 2:44 ““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;” 1 CORINTHIANS 11:3 “But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” (God is above man.) JOHN 19:10-11 “Hence Pilate said to him: “Are you not speaking to me? Do you not know I have authority to release you and I have authority to impale you?” Jesus answered him: “You would have no authority at all against me unless it had been granted to you from above. This is why the man that handed me over to you has greater sin.”” TITUS 1:16 “They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.” ACTS 10:34,35 “God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” PSALM 46:9 “He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.” 1 PETER 3:11 “let him seek peace and pursue it.” GALATIANS 5:22,23 “fruitage of [God’s] spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” ISAIAH 9:6,7 Jesus, is “prince of peace.” Luke 3 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. 1 TIMOTHY 1:18 “This mandate I commit to you, child, Timothy, in accord with the predictions that led directly on to you, that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare;” 2 TIMOTHY 2:3 “As a fine soldier of Christ Jesus take your part in suffering evil.” ACTS 17:26-28 “[God] made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of men, for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist.” (How different history would have been if mankind in general had taken note of Paul’s words! Today, mankind is riven by nationalism, class distinctions, racial hatreds, and social inequities. Yet, Paul’s words still apply.  All of us are descendants of that one man created by God. All of us are, in that sense, brothers and sisters.) So, I think these are some of the scriptures (not all) that the early Christians must have looked at (along with the example of the first Christians themselves) in determining whether warefare is something for those who worship the God of peace. Now, if you'd like to show me your scriptures again.  I know there is the one about obeying or being in subjection to the superior authorities. (But I've shown Biblical examples of where true worshipers of God, such as Daniel's companions, etc, have decided that obeying God is more important than obeying the government when the two conflict.)  So I don't see that as applying.  The question is: Are there other scriptures that show that Christians are to engage in warefare? Well, there's the Israelites, you say.  Well, I asked about Christians.  But let's look at the Israelites, again: I believe I have already stated: “Jehovah God decreed that Israel should make war to rid the Promised Land of the depraved Canaanites. (Leviticus 18:1, 24-28; Deuteronomy 20:16-18) Just as God had punished evildoers by means of a deluge in Noah’s day and fire in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, so he wielded the nation of Israel as his sword of execution.—Genesis 6:12, 17; 19:13, 24, 25. According to the Bible, Israel fought other battles under God’s direction, usually to repel unprovoked enemy threats. When the nation obeyed Jehovah, the wars it fought ended favorably. (Exodus 34:24; 2 Samuel 5:17-25) But disaster usually resulted when Israel dared to do battle contrary to divine counsel. Consider the case of King Jeroboam. Ignoring a direct prophetic warning, he dispatched his huge army in civil war against Judah. When the mayhem finally ended, 500,000 of Jeroboam’s soldiers were dead. (2 Chronicles 13:12-18) Even faithful King Josiah once picked a battle that was not his. The rash decision cost him his life.—2 Chronicles 35:20-24. What do these events show? That in ancient Israel, the decision to make war rested with God. (Deuteronomy 32:35, 43) He had his people fight for specific purposes. However, these purposes were long ago accomplished. Furthermore, Jehovah foretold that those who serve him “in the final part of the days” would “beat their swords into plowshares” and not “learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:2-4) Clearly, Biblical wars do not justify modern-day conflicts, none of which are fought under God’s direction or at his command. And, similarly, “Jehovah directed ancient Israel to use warfare to take possession of the land that he himself designated as their inheritance and to execute people whose depraved practices and defiance of the true God caused Jehovah to view them as being no longer fit to live. (Deut. 7:1, 2, 5; 9:5; Lev. 18:24, 25) Nevertheless, mercy was shown to Rahab and to the Gibeonites because they demonstrated faith in Jehovah. (Josh. 2:9-13; 9:24-27) In the Law covenant God laid down rules for warfare that he would approve, stipulating exemptions and the manner in which this warfare was to be carried out. Such were truly holy wars of Jehovah. That is not true of the carnal warfare of any nation today. With the establishing of the Christian congregation, a n ew situation came into existence. Christians are not under the Mosaic Law. Christ’s followers were to make disciples of people of all nations; so worshipers of the true God would in time be found in all those nations. However, what is the motive of those nations when they go to war? Is it to carry out the will of the Creator of all the earth or is it to further some nationalistic interest? If true Christians in one nation were to go to war against another nation, they would be fighting against fellow believers, against people who prayed for help to the same God that they did. Appropriately, Christ directed his followers to lay down the sword. (Matt. 26:52) He himself, glorified in the heavens, would henceforth carry out the execution of those who showed defiance of the true God and His will.—2 Thess. 1:6-8; Rev. 19:11-21.” Also, similarly, “Some try to justify today’s religious wars by noting that God approved of the killing of Canaanites by ancient Israelites. Yet, that is no justification for professed Christians to wage war today. Why? Because the Israelites were directly instructed by God to act as executioners of his righteous judgments against demon-worshiping peoples, whose worship included gross sexual immorality and child sacrifice.—Deuteronomy 7:1-5; 2 Chronicles 28:3. An evidence that the wars of ancient Israel were no ordinary conflicts is the miraculous nature of the victories that God gave the nation. For example, the ancient Israelites were once directed to use horns, jars, and torches—hardly instruments of classic warfare! On another occasion singers were positioned at the front of an Israelite army that was facing an overwhelming force of invading armies from several nations.—Judges 7:17-22; 2 Chronicles 20:10-26. Moreover, when, on occasion, the Israelites engaged in wars that were not ordained by God, they were not blessed by him and they suffered defeat. (Deuteronomy 28:15, 25; Judges 2:11-14; 1 Samuel 4:1-3, 10, 11) Israel’s wars, therefore, cannot be invoked to justify the wars waged in Christendom.” And I think I said this too: “We have to remember that this was a sanctified warfare by means of which Jehovah, the Judge of all the earth, had demon-worshiping nations exterminated. The Canaanites, for example, were squatters in the Promised Land and followed a demonistic, immoral life-style that would endanger God’s holy people. Jehovah had the land “vomit” those depraved humans out of their territory, using theocratic warfare to have it done. (Leviticus 18:1-30; Deuteronomy 7:1-6, 24) This justifies the spiritual warfare of the Christian today.—2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Ephesians 6:11-18 However, Jehovah did not approve of indiscriminate bloodshed. Thus, it is written concerning a king of Judah: “There was also innocent blood that Manasseh shed in very great quantity, until he had filled Jerusalem from end to end.” Though Manasseh later repented and humbled himself before Jehovah, that bloodguilt remained on him and his dynasty. Manasseh’s God-fearing grandson, King Josiah, acted positively to cleanse the land and restore true worship. But he could not remove that bloodguilt. During the reign of Josiah’s son Jehoiakim, Jehovah moved to bring Nebuchadnezzar against Judah, to execute judgment against that nation. “It was only by the order of Jehovah that it took place against Judah, to remove it from his sight for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he had done; and also for the innocent blood that he had shed, so that he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and Jehovah did not consent to grant forgiveness.”—2 Kings 21:16; 24:1-4; 2 Chronicles 33:10-13.” I cannot conceive of using the wars of ancient Israel as a defence against wars fought today.  They are different on every level.  God clearly backed the israelites.  It was God who decided that that would be their land.  It was God “the judge of all the earth” who decided that the Canaanites weren't deserving of death.  And it was His right to make that judgement.  Do we have a similar situation today?  Or rather, do we have God's people found in all countries?  How does that tie in with loving your brothers if you kill them?  How is that love? And here's a question I've been meaning to ask:  Just when did it become ok to be a part of the world for Christians?  And what do you think being “no part of the world” meant?  I know how the early Christians understood it.  How do you? OK, so we have the being in subjection to superior authorities and we have Israel fighting for God.  Other than that, could you show me the scriptures that you believe show that Christians should go to war? david.

Hi David:

Finally got around to it.  Thanks for bearing with me.
Well, having read and considered the scriptures you posted, I am afraid that they rather validate my position still.  No need to quote any other scriptures as you had plenty and we can both relate to the same ones:

The scriptures you quoted do not address the issues of warfare or the whole concept of defense, whether it be one to one or on a much larger scale.

The scriptures you cited shape our character as christians, to be loving, not attack others, not cause strife, to be peaceable, etc.  To live that way amongst ourselves and extend it to those who even hate us for Jesus sake.  Wars can be avoided that way, as far as depends on us.

I'll tell you a true story as was told to me by my mother many years ago (early-mid 90s).  She lived in Africa with my sisters and a Son in law who lived at the house to assist with the family business.  A group of known and unknown individuals stormed the house one day (after some period of legal dispute over property) with all sorts of sticks, machetes and whatnots with intent to mortally kill my family in broad daylight.  My youngest sister was close to fullterm in the pregnancy of her firstborn son who just turned 11, so yes, about 11 years ago.

About the same time, I was living in New York… and  remember the day as being Tuesday only because it was the normal day for mid week services at that particular church (TIME SQUARE CHURCH in Manhattan… God bless you!), and I attended fellowship that evening, putting forth my prayer need on a piece of paper “prayer request,” which was one of hundreds if not a thousand or more but I had all faith in God.

I am not a dreamer… I can't remember most of my dreams and yet, on rare occasions, the Lord impresses me this way and I usually have learned to pray about these dreams.  So it was that I had a disturbing dream about my family in Ghana on Monday night through Tuesday morning.  I couldn't even tell you the details now as I no longer remember it.  That it was disturbing was a fact, because I prayed about it.  I had a roommate at the time, a beloved friend.  We went jogging that morning and I shared the contents of the dream with her and asked her to pray for me and my family that day.  After work that evening, I followed through to church as was my habit and it was then I wrote on a piece of paper that I had such and such a dream and would like prayers for my family.

There was no way to reach my family in those days by phone so I didn't get in touch.  I continued to pray upon remembrance until the urgency passed and I fell into my usual rut.  About a month or so later when I had all but forgotten the dream, my mother wrote me and inserted a small newpaper article of the events she was talking about in her letter. I still have that article.

The people did come to attack them and were so many more, and had every intent to steal, kill and destroy.  My family could not have physically defended themselves but somehow, they managed to each escape and were scattered and remained in hiding for some days.  I would not write how that means of escape came about but I was told how my pregnant sister had trouble hiding because of her height and pregnancy and I thought
how awful and depraved that she should have been put to that.  The then president of my country was later reported to have sent a delegate of nine people to my mother's house to ask if everyone was safe… police were dispatched to protect and deter for a short time until things settled.  

In my mind the prayers God led me and others to pray helped in their deliverance on the day of the attack.  And surely in their over all safety following those events.  

Things have changed and they've since been living in peace, thanks be to God.  To my knowledge, not one member of my christian family has sought to go against the scriptures that you cited in your post.

I would not trade God's deliverance for anything… still, were my family that day without any route of escape, were they with any means to withstand their attackers and hold their ground I would pray that they do according to what God enables them to do to overcome their attackers.  If they could not have escaped (or be protected or defended), as many as were in the house that day, would have been killed.  (Those attackers even went to other known relatives homes and all our family members were not safe for a period of time), and I'd have been writing a different story today…

[david]

I'm glad your family is ok. I think that in many places, safer places, people look at violence and war as something that takes place in other places. So it's something they can figure out when it comes to them. It's not very real yet. So they don't face the issues. I am glad they are ok.

Let me tell you a true story. A Catholic in one country goes to war and shoots and kills a Catholic in another country. They are both Catholics. What does it mean to be a Catholic?
Another story, similar. A protestant in one country (insert just about any denomination) goes to war and shoots and kills his brother, of the same religion. What does it mean to be of his religion?
Another story. A muslim's nation goes to war with another nation. There are muslims in both nations. Brother kills brother. Were they really brothers? What does it mean to be muslim?
Of course, each of these stories is true and each could be multiplied countless times.
And one more story. This one isn't a true story. A follower of Christ goes to war and kills another follower of Christ. It never happened. It couldn't happen. It is inconceivable. What does it mean to be a Christian? It means you are not like the world. It means you are no part of the world. It means you are different, distinct, separate.

MATTHEW 5:43-48
““YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.”
(We are to be different than the people of the nations. Vs 8)
If you look around and aren't any different than the people of the nations. If you have the same attitudes towards war and life, what should that alert you to?

Cubes, I believe that robbers breaking in (whether night or day) and you defending yourself is a different thing than deciding to take up your governements fight and become trained to kill people from other lands.

I hear what you're saying about “someone has to defend the defenceless.” But is that a Christian's mission? When the world goes to war, what does that have to do with a follower of Christ?
I realize that the world is unjust and bad things, terrible things happen. So the motivation to take things into your own hands is there. But is that a Christian's role. Is killing for your government (or defending peace, or whatever nice words one uses) something that is a Christians role?

david.

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No need to quote any other scriptures as you had plenty and we can both relate to the same ones:

Ahh, but I found more, in other studies.

[Cubes]

Thank you, David. Let us be faithful to pray for all peoples everywhere as admonished in the scriptures. We are the salt of the earth even to that end, and the fervent prayers of the righteous do avail much.

Well, all I know is that the scriptures that you quoted form and develop the character of Christ in us and it is obvious to those who know us when we've been transformed that way.
I agree that the world should see the difference between christians and non-believers in the day to day, and I believe that they do. They shouldn't have to find out during the time of war and I don't know that soldiers at war is the barometer to test the fruit of christianity. I find that it's the day-to-day mundane stuff that challenges and defines where I am with Christ. The tiny, almost imperceptible shades and hues of character which becomes the very fabric of who we are. The daily posture and attitude one has towards God. That, David, is what is critical. Not that some army invades our country and we do what we can to repel them in defense. That's what those scriptures say to me.

Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

That's how I see it.

[Cubes]

Quote (Cubes @ June 06 2006,07:00)

Not that some army invades our country and we do what we can to repel them in defense.

Clarification: What I meant by “Our” here is not limited to my particular country of affiliation. It applies to all decent people in all nations.

[david]

Hi Cubes,

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They shouldn't have to find out during the time of war and I don't know that soldiers at war is the barometer to test the fruit of christianity.

Simply refusing to be a soldier does not a Christian make. However, killing ones spiritual brothers shows a great lack of love “among yourselves” and shows things as they truly are in the reflection of God's Word:
JOHN 13:34-35
“I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””

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I find that it's the day-to-day mundane stuff that challenges and defines where I am with Christ.

Yes. And somewhere in Luke, Luke 16:10 maybe, it says that “he who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much. He who is unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much.”
A lot of people say they are willing to die for Christ. Yet, they are not willing to live for him.
If we can manage the little things, it should be easier for us to remain firm when the hard choices come.

Quote

The daily posture and attitude one has towards God.

Yes, Christianity should be a “way” of life. It was to the early Christians. Some called it the way. We should seek God's thinking in all matters of life, big and small.

[david]

Hi Cubes. You mentioned this topic. I thought I would bring it back.

THE UNCERTAINTY WE ARE DISCUSSING: Whether the Bible condones or condemns Christians partaking in worldly wars.

FACT: The scriptures foretold an apostasy among Christians–a deviation from the straight path, following twisted thinking and false teachers.

FACT: Because of their Bible trained conscience and understanding of Scripture, the early Christians refused to go to war, even if it meant their imprisonment or death.

FACT: This changed.

The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under “Jehovah’s Witnesses”), second paragraph:
“The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. Their services are kept simple. They have no ornate buildings or clerical vestments, no divisions of members into clergy and laity. All are brothers, and every one baptized is under obligation to be a minister.” (Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol. 6)

I have seen the above quote in a couple of places in our publications, but it always came without the exact reference. This quote seemed a little fishy. Usually, our Canadian References speak of the persecution and legal troubles our brothers experiences during war years. But they don't ever speak like this. Could it somehow have been taken out of context? I had to dig through these encyclopedias in our main library downtown to find this quote. I’m not sure how or why this statement found it’s way into our Encyclopedia, but there it is, and I fully agree with it.

“All are brothers.” In the “first and second centuries of our era,” you did not find Christians killing one another. You did not find them going to war at all. It was completely out of harmony with their beliefs. Then, something changed. A lot of things changed. But this was foretold.

Noting an interesting parallel (about what the Bibles says), lecturer in church history Geoffrey F. Nuttall commented: “The early Christian attitude to war was more like that of the people who call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses than it is comfortable for us to suppose.”

Speaking about them, the editor of Holocaust Educational Digest noted: “No Jehovah’s Witness will ever go to war. . . . If everyone in the world in position of power had been of this faith, [World War II] would never have happened.”
Christine Elizabeth King wrote: “Only against the Witnesses was the [Nazi] government unsuccessful, for although they had killed thousands, the work went on and in May 1945 the Jehovah’s Witness movement was still alive, whilst National Socialism was not. The Witnesses’ numbers had increased and no compromises had been made. The movement had gained martyrs and had successfully waged one more battle in Jehovah God’s war.”—The Nazi State and the New Religions: Five Case Studies in Non-Conformity, page 193.

During Hitler’s Third Reich, while those of other religions in Germany followed their military chaplains. These gave the active right hand of support to the German political machine and made their stand clearly seen by heiling Hitler and saluting the swastika flag.
What position did Jehovah’s Witnesses take? The book “Of Gods and Men” states: “Only the Jehovah’s Witnesses resisted the regime. They fought tooth and nail and as a result one-half of their number was imprisoned and one-quarter executed. . . . They, in contrast to [other religions], are nonworldly in the sense that they do not seek the approbation or the rewards of the material world and do not consider themselves to be members of it. They are political ‘neutrals’ since they belong already to another world—God’s. . . . They do not seek or offer compromises. . . . To serve in the army, to vote, or to give the Hitler salute would have meant a recognition of the claims of this world as dominant over the claims of God.”

I’m going to repeat that quote. With reference to what the early Christians believed and how they acted, this quote from The Encyclopedia Canadiana is absolutely true:
“The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. . . . All are brothers.”

David.

[Cubes]

Quote (david @ July 19 2006,03:49)

The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under “Jehovah’s Witnesses”), second paragraph: “The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era.  Their services are kept simple.  They have no ornate buildings or clerical vestments, no divisions of members into clergy and laity.  All are brothers, and every one baptized is under obligation to be a minister.” (Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol. 6)

Hi David:

If Christ is glorified in any life or organization, praise be to God. Too often, reproach is brought on the name through our actions altogether.

Now back to this topic at hand:

Your facts are noted.

The JWs resisted Hitler by not joining his armies and so sided with God on that. In those same regions and other nations, others resisted Hitler by also directly and indirectly coming against his purposes and so sided with God.

God used the allied armies to crush Hitler's regime and so bring victory to all. I am sure the resistance of the JWs as well as others contributed to this over all effort. Point is, Hitler didn't get to rule the world and JWs could be said to have triumphed but it is equally true that the allied armies were used to achieve that aim.

A LIGHT MOMENT: Did you ever hear the one about….

The story goes that there was a severe storm forecasted and people in a certain region were asked to evacuate. There was a religious man who refused to leave because he said he expected his deliverance to come from God. So it was that he declined every offer to safety… the storm came, the waters in his house kept rising… a boat came by to offer him a ride: no the Lord will take care of me… then he was forced to get on the roof of his house, a helicopter came by… no, God said he would save me. His next appearance reportedly was before “St. Peter's presence.” The guy is upset, he wants a word with the Lord. Why did you tell me you'll save me and didn't come. I was waiting for you and now look at me? His Lord said to him, what did you want me to do? I sent all these people your way to deliver you, first the announcements, then the ground patrols, then the boat, finally the helicopter but you would not come…

Anyway, a little humor in this serious business of war.

[seekingtruth]

Gods ways are not our ways. I believe we will find that there is a lot of truth to that story.

We pray for God to use us, then when He brings trials our way, we resist, what we should embrace, so that God could be glorified.

[david]

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Thank you David. What about a man who murders an abortion doctor? The man is a christian and murders believing he is saving innocent lives by killing this doctor. Is this justified? I cannot see murder, reguardless whether if it is to defend our nation or not, if you have Jesus in your heart.

H, here is a thread that is related.

[Author]

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