Christians who Kill

[TJStarfire]

Proverbs 13 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

[david]

In the “great apostasy” thread, Nick wrote:

[/QUOTE] The greatest apostasy seemed to occur in the 2nd century AD when parts of the church aligned with the state in Constantine and compromised the teachings of Christ. I believe those that did so cut themselves off from the head of the Body, Christ himself. They have continued to flourish till the present day

Coincidentally, this is the same time that “Christians” reversed there beliefs about going to war. Where they would have previously refused to go to war, even if it meant their death, this belief did a back flip and has continued to flourish till the present day.

[david]

Also, from the same thread:
I wrote:

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“While men were sleeping his enemy came and oversowed weeds…” I'm interested in the timing of this statement. When did it begin? While men were sleeping. Looking at history, it seems that when the apostles who had been acting as a restraint against apostasy fell asleep in death, the congregation became spiritually drowsy. Since this scripture and the other ones that spoke of apostasy seemed to indicate that it was already at work before the apostles even left the scene, we really can't look to any creeds written by men. Jesus, and the inspired writers warned against what was to come. We really can't trust any ideas that were formed over the decades or centuries following the first century. The trinity is one such idea.

Nick's response was:

“Quite so David….”

“We really can't trust any ideas that were formed over the decades or centuries following the first century.”

Quite so indeed. This is why we must seriously consider WHY the early Christians were so determined in their refusal to take part in worldly wars.

2 Cor 10:3,4
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”

[david]

In the self defence thread, T8 stated:

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I have to admit that this for me is a hard question. I also wonder about war. If we were enlisted to fight against an enemy (like the Nazis) would God allow or want us to kill the enemy. Was it God's will that people went to war and ended the reign of terror that the Nazis brought? If so, then it seems that God allows killing in certain circumstances, just as he did during Old Testament times. Or are we to remain seperate to all these things and not participate?

[Cubes]

Hi David,

This is not the response due you but I couldn't help pondering on this scripture and wondering what the Samaritan would have done had he chanced upon the actual mugging and assault of the man?  

a) Would he have stayed out of sight until it was all over even had he had a means to defend them both

b) joined the man from Jericho in solidarity but not fight back so they could both be beaten (assuming obviously that they could not escape) or

c) Or would he have been the kind of guy who would have chased those bandits off by any means required?

The latter option strikes me as being true of this dude.  Anyway, here is the actual account.

Luke 10:30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, *when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

[david]

Maybe he would have followed that option and maybe he wouldn't have. But what we are told from this scripture is the answer to the question: “Who really is my neighbor”? It's not just the person that has the same skin color as you or lives next door or who is of your nationality.
So what does the Bible say about you and your neighbor? What is the command?

Cubes, I know I've asked this of you before, but how do you read this scripture which distinguishes Christians from the world?

2 CORINTHIANS 10:3,4 (New International Version)
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
To continue
2Cor 10.5
“For we are destroying speculations
and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God
and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ
and we are ready to punish all disobedience
whenever your obedience is complete”

So the battle is within ourselves as our minds are transformed to the likeness of Christ by the Word of God.
Speculations and vain imaginings such as trinity and  falsehoods such as “Jesus is Michael” and “Satan does not exist” also are to be cast down.
When men are ignorant and not reborn they are dealt with patiently but when they are reborn of the Spirit the expectations are higher and they do not any longer have ignorance as an excuse.

[david]

Ok.

2 CORINTHIANS 10:3,4 (New International Version)
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”
10:5
“For we are destroying speculations
and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God
and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ
and we are ready to punish all disobedience
whenever your obedience is complete”

Cubes, any thoughts on the first part of this scripture:
“For though we [Christians] live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.”
And that was certainly true of the first Christians, the Christians before the third century.

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So the battle is within ourselves as our minds are transformed to the likeness of Christ by the Word of God.

So is the battle on the battle fields, the fields of blood? Or do we not wage war as the world does, but rather as Christians, is our battle somewhere else, as Nick implies?

What do you think Cubes?

[Cubes]

Hi David:

Regarding your posts on 2 Cor 10:3f:  I answered to that much earlier on in the other ?”love among all” thread in various ways:  

Posted: May 03 2006,06:23

[Cubes]

From May 16, 2006, Page 14 of this thread:

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By DAVID: Hi Cubes.  I had thought you were from the U.S.  So if Africa and the U.S. go to war.  If for whatever reason we find that Africa just happens to be sitting on oil and they don't feel like sharing…..which direction will your gun be pointing and who exactly will you be defending?  I realize that at present this is an unlikely scenario.  Canada (where I'm from) has a lot of oil.  But Canadians are too much like Americans.  We live amongst you.  We look like American's.  We speak the language.  America would never presently get behind a war against Canada.

1.  I have not argued for the right to war for riches, power, glory or something else… only to protect lives…    Secondly, Jesus' answer works well for me:  my brethren is anyone who does the will of God, regardless of what country.  

2.  Regarding Early Christians vs. later ones: For the ordinances of God, I have found it is less confusing and more beneficial to read the word of God directly.  The timeline is irrelevant to me.  Judas Iscariot walked with Christ …!  To those that knew the Apostles (as well as to all generations), John the beloved apostle wrote:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you* know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

God's word and his fellowship through the holy spirit is promised all generations and shall abide so there's no advantage related to timelines.  Those who would hear and believe, do…  those who reject the truth always reject even seeing the Son of God walking on the planet.

Romans 10: 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'”* (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “'Who will descend into the abyss?'”* (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”* (that is, the word of faith which we preach)

[david]

Hey Cubes. It's late. I'll be brief:

You say you've already commented on this scripture:

2 CORINTHIANS 10:3,4 (New International Version)
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”

You quote:
“I do believe that there are a couple of ways to stand against evil:….if necessary….(War)”
“there are the things that belong to Caesar that Christians must contend with and render, and that unfortunately, sometimes include warfare.”

Cubes, in what way is this: 'not waging war as the world does'?

Cubes, I've asked others this, but I don't think I've asked you. If Caesar tells you that you are banned from sharing the Bible with others, and God wants you to do so….
Is this something that belongs to God or to Caesar? Whom will you obey?

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We are children of God but we pay taxes, David, less we offend them. And even that is in the will of God.

Yes, the early Christians were known for paying their taxes and being good citizens. But when told to go to war, they flat out refused, because of their Bible trained conscience.

Cubes, I will respond to the the rest of your post later. I must sleep.

[david]

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The second and great commandment: LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. This is predicated on 1) first loving yourself. 2)loving your neighbor as you love yourself. Question: How are you going to love another person (2) without first loving and protecting person (1) [yourself]? This is the simplest way I can express what I am trying to say.

Hi Cubes.

EPH 5:29
“for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it,”
Yes, we are to love our neighbor as ourself.

So in order to love your neighbor, you must love and protect yourself–keep yourself alive, is that it?

Yes, we are to care for ourselves. But not at the expence of violating God's commands. Our lives mean little in comparison to our relationship with our heavenly Father.

What did Jesus say? Did he not say to disown yourself? Should we be fond of lives?

“If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.” (mt 16:24,25)

MATTHEW 10:38
“And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.”

LUKE 14:27
“Whoever is not carrying his torture stake and coming after me cannot be my disciple.”

JOHN 12:25
“He that is fond of his soul destroys it, but he that hates his soul in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life.”

REVELATION 12:11
“And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.”

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but when both cheeks have been slapped and more and now its at a point where there's no means of escape, we have every God given right to put any means that God might provide at our advantage to drive back any enemy.

Cubes, I think you and I see war very differently. With you, it is always you protecting some helpless child who is about to be killed by an evil guy.
I see war, for the most part as fights over wealth and land and power and these fights are between those in power. Very very very few wars seem to fit the “just war” theory. And when a war does fit that theory, what does this have to do with Christians, who are no part of the world?
Cubes, if you are in your home and someone is coming after you with a gun, hide, or run or protect yourself if you can't do the other. I have never suggested that when there is an option, you just sit there and die.
What I am saying is that choosing to go to war and kill people of another nation because most likely your governement doesn't like them (because of the color of their skin, their oil that you want, their land that you think you should have, because it will help you politically, or a combination of these and a hundred other factors that are motived by greed, fear, and ignorance, “protecting” your so called way of life, etc) is wrong. The early Christians understood this. They understood that even “though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.” Christians are to be no part of the world or it's political maneuvering or squabling.

Here's a question:

God's kingdom,
or
your government?

If you could only choose one, which would it be?

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2. Regarding Early Christians vs. later ones: For the ordinances of God, I have found it is less confusing and more beneficial to read the word of God directly. The timeline is irrelevant to me. Judas Iscariot walked with Christ …! To those that knew the Apostles (as well as to all generations), John the beloved apostle wrote: 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you* know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Yes, of course it's more beneficial. It's great to know how Jesus felt about such things, how the apostles felt about such things. The grandchildren and great grandchildren of people living in the apostles times would know whether or not the apostles and Christians of Jesus time endorsed government killing. Since we seem confused about what the apostles and Bible writers are trying to tell us, it may help to look at how those who came right after them viewed what the earliest Christians believed.

Yes, there was an apostasy. Yes, it was already beginning to develop while the apostles were yet alive. They were like a restraint holding back the tide of apostasy. And when the last apostle died, there was little to hold back what Jesus and the Bible writers fortold–deviations, twisted, unhealthy teachings, false teachers, etc.
We know the Bible writers and Jesus had things right. We know there was to be an apostasy. We know that Christians didn't involve themselves in wars until between 160-180 CE. It seems highly probable that the change in attitude about wars was one of the things were the thinking got twisted, changed from the truth. It is reasonable to believe so.

Jesus and Bible writers and apostles and earliers Christians–
We apparently seem uncertain as to what they taught. (We know they fortold an apostasy.)

Early Christians living up to 160-180 CE–
Refused to go to war and kill, even if it meant their death.

“Christians” after that–
killing is acceptable.

One of those last two groups are wrong. Either there was an apostasy right quick (before a lot of the Bible was even finished, and lasting up to somewhere between 160-180) and then things got straightened out,

or,

those who came right after Jesus and during the time of the apostles and just after the apostles had it right and around 160-180, thinking changed.

Which is more likely?

[Cubes]

Hey Cubes.

Hey David!

You quote:

“I do believe that there are a couple of ways to stand against evil:….if necessary….(War)”
“there are the things that belong to Caesar that Christians must contend with and render, and that unfortunately, sometimes include warfare.”

Cubes, in what way is this: 'not waging war as the world does'?

In what way does eating real food indicate that we do not live by all that proceeds from the mouth of God?
I speak to balance, David, and truth.

Cubes, I've asked others this, but I don't think I've asked you. If Caesar tells you that you are banned from sharing the Bible with others, and God wants you to do so….
Is this something that belongs to God or to Caesar? Whom will you obey?

I should hope to obey God though my courage might fail me, but not willingly. You may know that in the United States, with all our churches, the national spirit is leaning more towards atheism e.g. an example is that the mention of God is discouraged through the banning of prayers in school, the strong trend towards department stores wishing patrons “happy holidays” or seasons greetings as opposed to “Merry Christmas,” which regardless of your position, many common folks associate with the birth of Jesus Christ… the Promise Keepers movement did a bit to keep the flame alive IMO some years back when about a million men assembled at Washington DC and it was something that the secular aspect of our culture could not ignore… anyhow, it is not the most popular thing to speak about God in a any secular society. Still we do and do proclaim him. It is a long way from being persecuted though so I can only pray that God would enable me stand as needed whenever.

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We are children of God but we pay taxes, David, less we offend them. And even that is in the will of God.

Yes, the early Christians were known for paying their taxes and being good citizens. But when told to go to war, they flat out refused, because of their Bible trained conscience.

IMO, God's people of the OT were not warmongers either. They too had the spirit guiding them, contrary to popular belief. It was not their habit to get up and attack other nations for no reason for they knew their God better than that. God IS UNCHANGING. He didn't just decide to become just and merciful! So it really does not hold together to present the OT patriachs as eagles and early christians as doves. Christ didn't change a lot regarding their attitude towards warfare or he would have said so but he did change their attitude to embrace gentiles through him.

I believe that 2 Corinthians 10:3,4 was true of the OT patriach's as well! People like King David often sought God and warred in the spirit through prayers.

(New International Version)

2 Cor 10:3,4
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”

[Cubes]

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Quote The second and great commandment:  LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. This is predicated on 1) first loving yourself.  2)loving your neighbor as you love yourself. Question:  How are you going to love another person (2) without first loving and protecting person (1) [yourself]?  This is the simplest way I can express what I am trying to say.   Hi Cubes. EPH 5:29 “for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it,” Yes, we are to love our neighbor as ourself.   So in order to love your neighbor, you must love and protect yourself–keep yourself alive, is that it?

I do not mean selfishness.  You know that.
And sure, our lives are the Lord's, not our own so for his sake, we shall have grace to lay it down as needed.  However, when it is not, we should also know it and have the discernment and courage to not count our lives worthless due to lack of knowledge.  I do not believe that at every instance when faced with an “enemy,” with the route of escape cut off, the Lord's call to christians is “surrender to the enemy.”  At the same time, I know that FOR HIS SAKE, we are led as sheep to the slaughter all the day long, yet not in every instance or scenario.  I believe there is a place of discernment and resistance given some situations.

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Yes, we are to care for ourselves.  But not at the expence of violating God's commands.  Our lives mean little in comparison to our relationship with our heavenly Father.

True that.

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What did Jesus say?  Did he not say to disown yourself?  Should we be fond of lives? “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me.  For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.” (mt 16:24,25)

I can't argue against that.

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MATTHEW 10:38 “And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” LUKE 14:27 “Whoever is not carrying his torture stake and coming after me cannot be my disciple.” JOHN 12:25 “He that is fond of his soul destroys it, but he that hates his soul in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life.” REVELATION 12:11 “And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.”

I am with you on these too, but I believe that these speak primarily of instances when people for the love of self, would refuse to yield to Christ and follow him.  This can happen in various forms.  People who would deny him when it is not convenient for whatever reason.  I do not advocate that and infact aspire to quite the opposite… that I should always own him and be owned by him.

It still doesn't explain to me though how surrendering in every instance to an enemy makes me a better follower of Christ (i.e. when there is no means of escape).  Where is it written:  surrender to your enemy when you are without a route of escape?

Thus at this juncture, I reserve the right once again to make use of all of the counsel of God presented in his word.  If our Lord Jesus can do it, so can I.  He is my example.

Now he went to the cross, but remember, he had knowledge of the plan and often spoke of it:  for THIS CAUSE came I into the world he was known to say.

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I see war, for the most part as fights over wealth and land and power and these fights are between those in power.  Very very very few wars seem to fit the “just war” theory.  And when a war does fit that theory, what does this have to do with Christians, who are no part of the world?   Cubes, if you are in your home and someone is coming after you with a gun, hide, or run or protect yourself if you can't do the other.  I have never suggested that when there is an option, you just sit there and die.

And I have never suggested that when there is an option, you fight either.  But if there is no such option, I shall play it by the moment as God leads and gives grace.
Thank you all the same for the advise.

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The early Christians understood this.  They understood that even “though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.”  Christians are to be no part of the world or it's political maneuvering or squabling.

I understand that up to a point.  We go to work so we can have an income and necessities… why?  because we are in the world …  we groan… so are they; God causes his sun to shine on the just and the unjust…and shows favor to all; all suffer but more so God's people.  I argue that what is different about us is on the inside; it gives as a certain quality and reality which is different from that of the world.  It would lead us to make different choices, to hate and avoid sin, but the daily grind is largely the same because we are in the world.  Wouldn't you agree?

Also, I'd rather argue about what is written than what the early christian's did, based on 1 Kings 13.  It's safer.  And what I am saying is that Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies etc, does that mean that war has been abolished on earth among christians until his return?  If so, how much of the OT should we abolish?

[david]

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You quote: “I do believe that there are a couple of ways to stand against evil:….if necessary….(War)” “there are the things that belong to Caesar that Christians must contend with and render, and that unfortunately, sometimes include warfare.” Cubes, in what way is this: 'not waging war as the world does'? In what way does eating real food indicate that we do not live by all that proceeds from the mouth of God? I speak to balance, David, and truth.

What?
I know what you're trying to compare but I don't understand why or how?

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IMO, God's people of the OT were not warmongers either. They too had the spirit guiding them, contrary to popular belief. It was not their habit to get up and attack other nations for no reason for they knew their God better than that. God IS UNCHANGING. He didn't just decide to become just and merciful! So it really does not hold together to present the OT patriachs as eagles and early christians as doves. Christ didn't change a lot regarding their attitude towards warfare or he would have said so

The early Christians disagree with you. These are the ones who were untainted by time and human thinking.

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believe that 2 Corinthians 10:3,4 was true of the OT patriach's as well! People like King David often sought God and warred in the spirit through prayers. (New International Version) 2 Cor 10:3,4 “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”

If you march around a city with glass jars and it falls I will believe that you are understanding this scripture correctly. If the “weapons” you fight with are “not th weapons of the world” and you are comparing this to the nation of Israel, I would expect to see some miraculous obvious underdog yet vicorious wars. Today, people use Guns. If God is truly on your side, put the guns down. Pick up stones. If you win, then God is on your side.

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It still doesn't explain to me though how surrendering in every instance to an enemy makes me a better follower of Christ (i.e. when there is no means of escape). Where is it written: surrender to your enemy when you are without a route of escape?

Perhaps what it comes down to is this: Do you have faith that God will ressurect you? Do you think your enemy at this point in his life has heard about God? Will he perhaps hear later? At this point in his life, will God remember him, resurrect him? How do you know at some point in his life he won't completely change? And for you to kill him now, you may take away that chance. If you are friends with God, he WILL remember you. He will bring you back to life. He has promised this. It's as good as done. Are you worthy to judge him of life or death? Just some thoughts.

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And what I am saying is that Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies etc, does that mean that war has been abolished on earth among christians until his return?

No, in fact they were fortold. But Christians are “no part of the world.” What do Christians have to do with the slaughter of other humans?

david

[Cubes]

How's it going, David?:

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Quote   You quote: “I do believe that there are a couple of ways to stand against evil:….if necessary….(War)” “there are the things that belong to Caesar that Christians must contend with and render, and that unfortunately, sometimes include warfare.” Cubes, in what way is this: 'not waging war as the world does'? In what way does eating real food indicate that we do not live by all that proceeds from the mouth of God? I speak to balance, David, and truth.   What? I know what you're trying to compare but I don't understand why or how?

I speak to things that are spiritual vs things that are practical:

a.  God's children are free, for the earth is YHWH's and all the fullness thereof, yet we pay taxes to human authorities and rent to landlords.  Spiritual vs practical.

b.  God's word by which we live is spiritual yet we eat actual food too for norishment.  Spiritual vs. practical.  God could have abolished actual food and sustained us solely by his word.  He can, but has chosen not to do this.

c.  We wrestle not against flesh and blood …., thus by neccessity the weapons of our warefare must be spiritual as laid out in Eph 6.10f, but as with the above, there is a practical side to this wrestling and warfare as well.

Hope that has been clarified?

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The early Christians disagree with you.  These are the ones who were untainted by time and human thinking.

I am not saying that Israel did not fight wars in the OT… What I am saying is that it was not their general attitude to START wars and pick on others.  

That is not to say that when an enemy came against Israel, they were not to fight back.  Naturally, ideally, they were to involve God in all aspects of their lives so when attacked, they also looked to God for strength, guidance and victory and did what they could to repel the enemy.  They took initiatives but also trusted God.  One of my favorite such events was when Jonathan and his armor bearer went out to drive back an entire army (1 Samuel Chapters 13 and 14).  

He didn't even tell his father, King Saul!  He did what had to be done!  No wonder Jonathan took to David who was of a similar spirit.  Discernment, confidence in God, courage!  I don't see the ordinances of Jesus abolishing the need to repel such threats similarly among his followers.    

David, in this particular scenario (1 Sam 14), there was a combination of the Spiritual and practical, even in David's slaying of Goliath!  Jonathan did have a weapon and he used it well, along with his armorbearer!   Yet it was God who obviously gave him victory for being a man who keenly sought and trusted in him!  Should I disregard this aspect of scripture from my over all faith?  Indeed not.

So what and who are the “early christians” disagreeing with?  Scripture, God?  1 Kings 13.

If you want to do away with “it is written…” and replace it with “early christians” or whatever, that would be your prerogative, but I do not advise it. My experience as a christian has taught me that Jesus does quote from the OT scriptures and did often point to them to explain his position.
It's all I am doing too.

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If you march around a city with glass jars and it falls I will believe that you are understanding this scripture correctly.  If the “weapons” you fight with  are “not th weapons of the world” and you are comparing this to the nation of Israel, I would expect to see some miraculous obvious underdog yet vicorious wars.  Today, people use Guns.  If God is truly on your side, put the guns down.  Pick up stones.  If you win, then God is on your side.

Naturally. No genuine christian lives without faith in God and life in the spirit.  And though I do not speak to this type of warfare, you could say I have known some victories too of the sort, enough to know that God is well able.  Not just something I read about.  

But as demonstrated above, there is the spiritual, which is major, and the practical of things that we need to do.  

Oh David, this just came to my remembrance.  When Jesus came to raise Lazarus from the dead, he [Jesus] did what ONLY HE COULD DO, in that 1) he called forth Lazarus to life.  There was something that was in the people's ability to do and that he commanded them to do which was that 2) they should roll away the stone from the tomb and remove Lazarus' burial cloths.  3)  Lazarus himself was in no position to do anything so nothing was required of him.  
The contrast here with Jesus' own resurrection from the tomb is remarkable:  the stone was rolled away and his burial cloths were off without the peoples' assistance.  The Father called his own son back to life.

Anyhow, we have our part to play and God has his through Jesus.  

Again, Jonathan looked firstly to God but he also did use his physical weaponry.  The weapon could not have brought him victory without God on his side, yet God in this case did not begrudge him the use of it either:  thus, the only rule I see here is that a) be just before God b) don't go without God or trust in your own strength (that's absolute); c) you may or may not use physical weaponry but always the spiritual is needed.  There is however no absolute rule yet to my knowledge that we are to NEVER USE PHYSICAL WEAPONS only SPIRITUAL ONES.  I don't believe that's what the related scriptures are saying.  Do you?

Thus you are making #3 absolute to the exclusion of physical weaponry and I am saying that you are without the scriptural authority to do so in light of the entire word of God, and the lack of scripture that says DO NOT war and/or use weapons.

This kind of absolutism (?legalism) is what perhaps got some people in trouble when I read that a certain group had actually brought snakes into their “church” building among the congregation, in the name of Jesus.  They held services with the snakes slithering in their midst because Jesus said we shall step over scorpions and not be harmed and Paul had survived a venomous snake bite in Malta!  I think they had some snake bites and though I don't recall whether or not there were any fatalities as it's been a while since I read the article!  

Was venomous snake bites the point of Jesus' commission to go ye into all the world or was it about the Kingdom of God?  Those people would seem to have made snakebites the focus and missed the whole point.

We are not to be known for our stand or lack of stand on warfare.  We are to be known as God's people who love him, love one another and love our enemies.  This means that I do not pay back an enemy evil for evil, and when there is opportunity to show good to towards him/her, I ought.  It does not mean that I abdicate control of my life and kindred to him/her to bring harm as he/she sees fit.  

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… At this point in his life, will God remember him, resurrect him?  How do you know at some point in his life he won't completely change?  And for you to kill him now, you may take away that c hance.  … Are you worthy to judge him of life or death?  Just some thoughts.

This argument of yours is perhaps best suited in cases where the enemy is clearly subdued already.  In such a case, one has a chance to contemplate… and the taking of such life is done for punishment or vengeance.  What you said applies in this scenario but not when the enemy is not subdued.

We cannot love our God, let alone our enemy, from the grave.  Can we?  We do that in life.  Thus love your neighbor as yourself and if necessary, get yourself a good pair of running shoes, some money and a sword as Jesus was saying to the disciples.  If I have not misunderstood that scripture.

Psalm 6:4 Return, O Lord, deliver me!
Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You;
In the grave who will give You thanks?

[Cubes]

Jonathan rocked!

1 Samuel 14: 6 Then Jonathan said to the young man who bore his armor, “Come, let us go over to the garrison of these uncircumcised; it may be that the Lord will work for us. For nothing restrains the Lord from saving by many or by few.”
7 So his armorbearer said to him, “Do all that is in your heart. Go then; here I am with you, according to your heart.”
8 Then Jonathan said, “Very well, let us cross over to these men, and we will show ourselves to them. 9 If they say thus to us, 'Wait until we come to you,' then we will stand still in our place and not go up to them. 10 But if they say thus, 'Come up to us,' then we will go up. For the Lord has delivered them into our hand, and this will be a sign to us.”
11 So both of them showed themselves to the garrison of the Philistines. And the Philistines said, “Look, the Hebrews are coming out of the holes where they have hidden.” 12 Then the men of the garrison called to Jonathan and his armorbearer, and said, “Come up to us, and we will show you something.”
Jonathan said to his armorbearer, “Come up after me, for the Lord has delivered them into the hand of Israel.” 13 And Jonathan climbed up on his hands and knees with his armorbearer after him; and they fell before Jonathan. And as he came after him, his armorbearer killed them. 14 That first slaughter which Jonathan and his armorbearer made was about twenty men within about *half an acre of land.
15 And there was trembling in the camp, in the field, and among all the people. The garrison and the raiders also trembled; and the earth quaked, so that it was a very great trembling. 16 Now the watchmen of Saul in Gibeah of Benjamin looked, and there was the multitude, melting away; and they went here and there. 17 Then Saul said to the people who were with him, “Now call the roll and see who has gone from us.” And when they had called the roll, surprisingly, Jonathan and his armorbearer were not there. 18 And Saul said to Ahijah, “Bring the *ark of God here” (for at that time the ark of God was with the children of Israel). 19 Now it happened, while Saul talked to the priest, that the noise which was in the camp of the Philistines continued to increase; so Saul said to the priest, “Withdraw your hand.” 20 Then Saul and all the people who were with him assembled, and they went to the battle; and indeed every man's sword was against his neighbor, and there was very great confusion. 21 Moreover the Hebrews who were with the Philistines before that time, who went up with them into the camp from the surrounding country, they also joined the Israelites who were with Saul and Jonathan. 22 Likewise all the men of Israel who had hidden in the mountains of Ephraim, when they heard that the Philistines fled, they also followed hard after them in the battle. 23 So the Lord saved Israel that day, and the battle shifted to Beth Aven.

[david]

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If you want to do away with “it is written…” and replace it with “early christians” or whatever, that would be your prerogative, but I do not advise it. My experience as a christian has taught me that Jesus does quote from the OT scriptures and did often point to them to explain his position.

No, nothing of the sort. I began using scriptures. I began talking about the tremendous differences between the wars of Israel, (wars which clearly had God's backing) and the wars of today. But we seem to disagree on scripture.

So, since Jesus and the apostles had it right….
They did have it right, didn't they Cubes? [yes]

And the ones they taught that came directly after them most likely were not misunderstanding them…. right? I mean, those who lived in the first century for example, they had the example of the early Christians, they actually saw what the early Christians believed in how they acted to certain situations. At some point in time, something changed, JUST AS FORTOLD. Now, because the early Christians who saw firsthand or secondhand through great grandparents how Jesus and his true followers lived and what they believed–because these early Christians felt so strongly against going to war, so strongly that they would rather surrender their lives than kill others–does not this make you wonder? Of course this refusal to go to war changed, as fortold. Many things changed. Suddenly, it was ok for christians to be a part of the world, to be involved in politics and war, etc.

I believe this is a strong line of reasoning, and an example to follow. Paul said: 'Become imitators of me, even as I am of Christ.'

Eventually, people were not so closely imitating Paul or Christ. That is clear. Anyway, I have used Scriptures. But since we disagree on them, I thought the best place to look would be with the earliest Christians. When I say “early Christians” I don't just mean the ones who lived 200 years after Christ, I mean those who lived from the time of Christ to 160-180 C.E.

Ok, so let's start back at the beginning. I'll show you the scriptures that compel me to believe that the early Christians were basing their unwillingness to go to war on the the following scriptures. Then, you can again show me which scriptures you use to support the belief that the early Christians were wrong in not going to war and that Christians should go to war.

LUKE 22:49
“Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”
MATTHEW. 26:52
“Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’” (Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.)
MATTHEW 22:39
“The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’”
JOHN 15:14,17
“YOU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU. . . .These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another.”
LUKE 6:27, 28:
“I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
1 JOHN 4:20
“If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.”
1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”
(No Christian can war against another Christian—it would be like a man fighting himself.)
ISAIAH 2:2-4
“It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded Jehovah’s judgment give evidence that he is their God.)
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4:
“Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.” (Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.)
MICAH 4:3
“And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
JOHN 17:6
“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”
(When the WORLD goes to war, what does a Christian do?)
MATTHEW 5:9
““Happy are the peaceable,” (See 2 Cor 13:11)
ROMANS 12:17-21
“Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
ROMANS 13:10
“Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.”
JOHN 6:15
“Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”
JOHN 18:36 (Jesus told the Roman governor)
“My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”
JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as 1 John 5:19 says, “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as being “the ruler of the world.” So, no matter what worldly faction a person might support, under whose control would he really come?)
ACTS 4:19
“But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to YOU rather than to God, judge for yourselves.”
ACTS 5:29
“In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”
MATTHEW 22:21
“Pay back . . . Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”
(When Caesar demands what belongs to God, we must acknowledge that God has the prior claim.)
REVELATION 13:10
“If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he m
ust be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.”
GENESIS 9:6
“Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.”
(All mankind today are descendants of Noah; hence, this divine law that emphasizes respect for life is binding on all humans who desire God’s approval.)
ROMANS 12:19-21
“Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
LUKE 21:20-21
““Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judéa begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her;”
(In those days, Jewish factions were fighting one another, both verbally and by shedding blood. But Jesus’ disciples did not get mixed up in those revolutionary campaigns. For some 30 years they waited in Jerusalem. Then they obeyed Jesus’ prophetic sign by “fleeing to the mountains.” Their neutral stance and their flight resulted in their salvation.)
“A slave of the Lord does not need to fight.”–2 Timothy 2:24
(While the context shows that Paul was here referring to verbal fights, the original language word rendered “fight” (ma?khe?sthai) is generally associated with armed or hand-to-hand combat.)
PSALM 2:2
“The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,”
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”
1 CORINTHIANS 11:3
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”
(God is above man.)
JOHN 19:10-11
“Hence Pilate said to him: “Are you not speaking to me? Do you not know I have authority to release you and I have authority to impale you?” Jesus answered him: “You would have no authority at all against me unless it had been granted to you from above. This is why the man that handed me over to you has greater sin.””
TITUS 1:16
“They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.”
ACTS 10:34,35
“God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”
PSALM 46:9
“He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.”
1 PETER 3:11
“let him seek peace and pursue it.”
GALATIANS 5:22,23
“fruitage of [God’s] spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”
ISAIAH 9:6,7
Jesus, is “prince of peace.”
Luke 3 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
1 TIMOTHY 1:18
“This mandate I commit to you, child, Timothy, in accord with the predictions that led directly on to you, that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare;”
2 TIMOTHY 2:3
“As a fine soldier of Christ Jesus take your part in suffering evil.”
ACTS 17:26-28
“[God] made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of men, for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist.” (How different history would have been if mankind in general had taken note of Paul’s words! Today, mankind is riven by nationalism, class distinctions, racial hatreds, and social inequities. Yet, Paul’s words still apply. All of us are descendants of that one man created by God. All of us are, in that sense, brothers and sisters.)

So, I think these are some of the scriptures (not all) that the early Christians must have looked at (along with the example of the first Christians themselves) in determining whether warefare is something for those who worship the God of peace.

Now, if you'd like to show me your scriptures again. I know there is the one about obeying or being in subjection to the superior authorities. (But I've shown Biblical examples of where true worshipers of God, such as Daniel's companions, etc, have decided that obeying God is more important than obeying the government when the two conflict.) So I don't see that as applying. The question is: Are there other scriptures that show that Christians are to engage in warefare?

Well, there's the Israelites, you say. Well, I asked about Christians. But let's look at the Israelites, again:

I believe I have already stated:

“Jehovah God decreed that Israel should make war to rid the Promised Land of the depraved Canaanites. (Leviticus 18:1, 24-28; Deuteronomy 20:16-18) Just as God had punished evildoers by means of a deluge in Noah’s day and fire in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, so he wielded the nation of Israel as his sword of execution.—Genesis 6:12, 17; 19:13, 24, 25.
According to the Bible, Israel fought other battles under God’s direction, usually to repel unprovoked enemy threats. When the nation obeyed Jehovah, the wars it fought ended favorably. (Exodus 34:24; 2 Samuel 5:17-25) But disaster usually resulted when Israel dared to do battle contrary to divine counsel. Consider the case of King Jeroboam. Ignoring a direct prophetic warning, he dispatched his huge army in civil war against Judah. When the mayhem finally ended, 500,000 of Jeroboam’s soldiers were dead. (2 Chronicles 13:12-18) Even faithful King Josiah once picked a battle that was not his. The rash decision cost him his life.—2 Chronicles 35:20-24.
What do these events show? That in ancient Israel, the decision to make war rested with God. (Deuteronomy 32:35, 43) He had his people fight for specific purposes. However, these purposes were long ago accomplished. Furthermore, Jehovah foretold that those who serve him “in the final part of the days” would “beat their swords into plowshares” and not “learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:2-4) Clearly, Biblical wars do not justify modern-day conflicts, none of which are fought under God’s direction or at his command.

And, similarly,

“Jehovah directed ancient Israel to use warfare to take possession of the land that he himself designated as their inheritance and to execute people whose depraved practices and defiance of the true God caused Jehovah to view them as being no longer fit to live. (Deut. 7:1, 2, 5; 9:5; Lev. 18:24, 25) Nevertheless, mercy was shown to Rahab and to the Gibeonites because they demonstrated faith in Jehovah. (Josh. 2:9-13; 9:24-27) In the Law covenant God laid down rules for warfare that he would approve, stipulating exemptions and the manner in which this warfare was to be carried out. Such were truly holy wars of Jehovah. That is not true of the carnal warfare of any nation today.
With the establishing of the Christian congregation, a new situation came into existence. Christians are not under the Mosaic Law. Christ’s followers were to make disciples of people of all nations; so worshipers of the true God would in time be found in all those nations. However, what is the
motive of those nations when they go to war? Is it to carry out the will of the Creator of all the earth or is it to further some nationalistic interest? If true Christians in one nation were to go to war against another nation, they would be fighting against fellow believers, against people who prayed for help to the same God that they did. Appropriately, Christ directed his followers to lay down the sword. (Matt. 26:52) He himself, glorified in the heavens, would henceforth carry out the execution of those who showed defiance of the true God and His will.—2 Thess. 1:6-8; Rev. 19:11-21.”

Also, similarly,

“Some try to justify today’s religious wars by noting that God approved of the killing of Canaanites by ancient Israelites. Yet, that is no justification for professed Christians to wage war today. Why? Because the Israelites were directly instructed by God to act as executioners of his righteous judgments against demon-worshiping peoples, whose worship included gross sexual immorality and child sacrifice.—Deuteronomy 7:1-5; 2 Chronicles 28:3.
An evidence that the wars of ancient Israel were no ordinary conflicts is the miraculous nature of the victories that God gave the nation. For example, the ancient Israelites were once directed to use horns, jars, and torches—hardly instruments of classic warfare! On another occasion singers were positioned at the front of an Israelite army that was facing an overwhelming force of invading armies from several nations.—Judges 7:17-22; 2 Chronicles 20:10-26.
Moreover, when, on occasion, the Israelites engaged in wars that were not ordained by God, they were not blessed by him and they suffered defeat. (Deuteronomy 28:15, 25; Judges 2:11-14; 1 Samuel 4:1-3, 10, 11) Israel’s wars, therefore, cannot be invoked to justify the wars waged in Christendom.”

And I think I said this too:

“We have to remember that this was a sanctified warfare by means of which Jehovah, the Judge of all the earth, had demon-worshiping nations exterminated. The Canaanites, for example, were squatters in the Promised Land and followed a demonistic, immoral life-style that would endanger God’s holy people. Jehovah had the land “vomit” those depraved humans out of their territory, using theocratic warfare to have it done. (Leviticus 18:1-30; Deuteronomy 7:1-6, 24) This justifies the spiritual warfare of the Christian today.—2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Ephesians 6:11-18
However, Jehovah did not approve of indiscriminate bloodshed. Thus, it is written concerning a king of Judah: “There was also innocent blood that Manasseh shed in very great quantity, until he had filled Jerusalem from end to end.” Though Manasseh later repented and humbled himself before Jehovah, that bloodguilt remained on him and his dynasty. Manasseh’s God-fearing grandson, King Josiah, acted positively to cleanse the land and restore true worship. But he could not remove that bloodguilt. During the reign of Josiah’s son Jehoiakim, Jehovah moved to bring Nebuchadnezzar against Judah, to execute judgment against that nation. “It was only by the order of Jehovah that it took place against Judah, to remove it from his sight for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he had done; and also for the innocent blood that he had shed, so that he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and Jehovah did not consent to grant forgiveness.”—2 Kings 21:16; 24:1-4; 2 Chronicles 33:10-13.”

I cannot conceive of using the wars of ancient Israel as a defence against wars fought today. They are different on every level. God clearly backed the israelites. It was God who decided that that would be their land. It was God “the judge of all the earth” who decided that the Canaanites weren't deserving of death. And it was His right to make that judgement. Do we have a similar situation today? Or rather, do we have God's people found in all countries? How does that tie in with loving your brothers if you kill them? How is that love?

And here's a question I've been meaning to ask: Just when did it become ok to be a part of the world for Christians? And what do you think being “no part of the world” meant? I know how the early Christians understood it. How do you?

OK, so we have the being in subjection to superior authorities and we have Israel fighting for God. Other than that, could you show me the scriptures that you believe show that Christians should go to war?

david.

[david]

Cubes, I will comment on the rest of your posts later. I have to be somewhere now.

david

[Cubes]

Here's a thought:

The kingdom of heaven is to be advanced without physical warfare.  It is intangible and spiritual in nature, attained by faith in the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ.  Therefore its warfare is similarly fought and won, unlike actual Israel which is a physical possession, and so sometimes defended physically.

If Israel's mission was to get to Israel and be God's people, our mission is to serve Christ and to publish the kingdom of God and the fact that God sent his only begotten son to be the savior of the world.

Now mission aside, we live in the world and must know how to conduct ourselves as sheep in the midst of wolves, by the word of God.

Israel had the various laws which even addressed their nutrition and wardrobe.  They lived primarily in an allotted geographical boundary, we don't;  in exasperation Moses did say the quickest way to settle a fight was to render “an eye for an eye.”  It would seem to me that Israel did things practically …actual circumcision vs circumcision of the heart; sacrifices of animals vs. the presenting of oneself as a holy and living sacrifice to YHWH, for example.  This demonstrates part of the contrast between the law and the spirit.

They had the physical man-made temple of Israel then whereas in Jesus, we have become the temple which builder is God of which Christ is the chief corner stone, etc.  

They had a spiritual component to their way of life and God did call them to live by faith, but much of it was also done physically as a foreshadowing of the better spiritual covenant of the present.  

Now it seems to me that things are reversed, we live primarily by the spirit…though not perfectly or fully, for the return of Christ would take us to unimagined heights and new realities.

For this reason, has God entirely abolished the physical (law)aspects of our way of life now?  I doubt that because it would then mean that we have finally become the people that God sought all along.  They'd have been no need for Israel fighting wars had they listened to God to begin with.  They would have entered into his rest and the whole thing would have been largely spiritual and settled by now.  After all it was God who destroyed Pharoah's army.  All Moses had to do was point the rod!  And yet, they soon started acting out so that it was to be another 40 years before Caleb and Joshua made it home to Israel with the new generation.

I believe therefore that if we live as God would have us, he will protect us himself against any foe and our prayers shall be quickly answered as we seek the Kingdom of God.  The arm of the Lord is not too short nor are his ears deaf.  In this category, he may vanquish a physical enemy as he did Pharoah's army, or use a David or Jonathan or some other example, even give rest as he did during the reign of King David so that no evil came nigh their dwelling.  

We are not able to hold up our end of the bargain and “choose life” so our life in the Spiritual Covenant is largely interspersed with the physical.  We don't even see half of the miracles that Israel saw, and this in light of Jesus' and the apostles lives, what they did and his promise that we shall do greater things!  So naturally, we have had no choice but to live beneath the standards of the physical, which must grieve God! Still he has been merciful and so gracious.  

If Bill Gates, Dell and Job of Apple could put together this medium called computers and the internet, folks, think of all that we are willfully denying ourselves by living between two opinions as the people of Elijah's day?  If God is God, let's serve him and do things his way.  

Now to the glory of God, if I had any doubts, people like Bill Gates actually convince me that God is.  God created the universe and created men.  Men have invented the telephone, aeroplanes, computers, xray, MRI equipments and who knows what else etc.  They've learned to read and interpret data through electrical charges, sound and light waves… Now I know men did not create the world but ARE CREATED THEMSELVES! I know that someone had to have created the world and the men and living things in it… .  How awesome is he then!  I know too that faith moves mountains and things happen spiritually without human intervention so there….  God is.  He said so himself and I'd like us to live a little more within the realms and potential which he has for us.  It's available and for the having if we would believe and do his will.
(sorry folks but my heart is overflowing with a good matter  …).

Finally, it is promised that we shall be persecuted and even killed for Jesus' sake, and to that end, I agree with David.  The scriptures provide examples of how the apostles conducted themselves in the preaching of the gospel and the related persecutions which they suffered.  The OT does not offer any additional or differing view points so it's pretty clear cut this one.

May God bless you all and have an awesome, Christ magnifying week wherever you are!

[Author]

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