- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote Still trying to cure the ills of the world and denigrate authority?
It bothers me that you take my stance as denigrading authority. Rather, I am putting different authorities in their place.Looking at the book of Daniel, for example, logically, Christian submission to governmental authorities is relative, not absolute.—Compare Daniel 3:16-18.
To simply say: 'I will follow the government no matter what,' is to disregard the greatest authority in the universe.
When doing anything, you should consider God's view on matters.Nick, imagine that you had undergone surgery and stitches were securing the wound. Though the stitches are foreign to the body, they serve a purpose for a limited time. Removing them prematurely could be harmful. Similarly, human governmental authorities were not part of God’s original purpose. Until his Kingdom is ruling the earth completely, however, human governments hold society together, performing a function that fits in with God’s will for the present time. We should thus remain in subjection to the superior authorities, while we give priority to God’s law and authority.
Not at all david,
I do feel bored with your repetition but it is a free world and clearly you want to make a point …again…and again…Quote All you have quoted is only known to be true because you and I know and trust that the Spirit of God has penned those words through men. I do know that some of the essence of the truth remains in the Bible, but the majority of what is left there is only there to mislead and inspire disputes over how we treat our cursed bodies of dust or how many times the planet spins round between the times we place bits of colored paper in an offering plate.
Quote Not at all david,
I do feel bored with your repetition but it is a free world and clearly you want to make a point …again…and again…If the conversation bores you or disturbs you, please don't reply. I am ok with that.
Quote (david @ May 07 2006,03:03) Quote Not at all david,
I do feel bored with your repetition but it is a free world and clearly you want to make a point …again…and again…If the conversation bores you or disturbs you, please don't reply. I am ok with that.
Hi david,
I have tried that and all it seems to lead to is harrassment. If I do not reply you take that as agreement with the worst possible answer to the latest future scenario disaster scene you have dreamed up.I know my God has my life including my future in His hands. I do not need to live in dread of the future as He is with me. He said that the yoke was easy and the burden light and thus it has proved to be.
Letting my imagination run amok with horror possibilities is unrealistic when even death is good.
Hi David,
Mat 26:52 Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Mat 5:39 But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other:
Amen!
But these scriptures are addressed to individuals and not those governing forces that are responsible for the WELFARE OF THEIR MEMBERS.
The officer Cornelius is a Religious man and his prayers where heard by God.
Act 10:1 And there was a certain man in Caesarea, named Cornelius, a centurion of that which is called the ITALIAN BAND:
BAND [G4686]
G4686 σπεῖρα speira spi'-rah
Of immediate Latin origin, but ultimately a derivative of G138 in the sense of its cognate, G1507; a coil (spira, “spire”), that is, (figuratively) a mass of men (a Roman military cohort; also [by analogy] a squad of Levitical janitors): – band.Act 10:2 A religious man, and fearing God with all his house, giving much alms to the people and always praying to God.
Act 10:3 This man saw in a vision manifestly, about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him and saying to him: Cornelius.
Act 10:4 And he, beholding him. being seized with fear, said: What is it, Lord? And he said to him: Thy prayers and thy alms are ascended for a memorial in the sight of God.
Act 10:31 Cornelius, thy prayer is heard and thy alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.A centurion was praised by Christ
Mat 8:9 For I also am a man subject to authority, HAVING UNDER ME SOLDIERS; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him. AMEN I SAY TO YOU, I have not found so great faith in Israel.Paul explains that it was by Faith that warriors of the Old Testament such as Gedeon, Barac, Samson etc CONQUERED THE KINGDOMS.
Heb 11:32 And what shall I yet say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, Barac, Samson, Jephthe, David, Samuel, and the prophets:
Heb 11:33 WHO BY FAITH CONQUERED KINGDOMS, WROUGHT JUSTICE, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, recovered strength from weakness, BECAME VALIANT IN BATTLE, PUT TO FLIGHT THE ARMIES OF FOREIGNERS.John the Baptist acknowledged the lawfulness of the soldier’s profession.
Luk 3:13 But he said to them: Do nothing more than that which is appointed you.
Here he is telling the Soldiers do nothing more than that which is appointed to you, basically he is telling them to keep the peace, and prevent men doing violence to one another.
Luk 3:14 And the soldiers also asked him, saying: And what shall we do? And he said to them: Do violence to no man, neither calumniate any man; and be content with your pay.
Above he is then says do violence to no man, he does no say leave your job that has been appointed to you NO, he even tells them to be content with there pay.
So there business as solders of war is that of justice, IT IS TO BE A TERROR ONLY TO EVIL DOERS, BUT A PROTECTION TO THOSE THAT DO WELL.
Rom 13:3 FOR PRINCES ARE NOT A TERROR TO THE GOOD WORK, BUT TO THE EVIL. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same.
Rom 13:4 For he is God's minister to thee, for good. BUT IF THOU DO THAT WHICH IS EVIL, FEAR: FOR HE BEARETH NOT THE SWORD IN VAIN. FOR HE IS GOD'S MINISTER: AN AVENGER TO EXECUTE WRATH UPON HIM THAT DOTH EVIL.
This is important the word of God says FOR HE IS GOD'S MINISTER: AN AVENGER TO EXECUTE WRATH UPON HIM THAT DOTH EVIL.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore be subject of necessity: NOT ONLY FOR WRATH, BUT ALSO FOR CONSCIENCE' SAKE.
Rom 13:6 For therefore also you pay tribute. FOR THEY ARE THE MINISTERS OF GOD, SERVING UNTO THIS PURPOSE.Rom 13:1 LET EVERY SOUL BE SUBJECT TO HIGHER POWERS. FOR THERE IS NO POWER BUT FROM GOD: AND THOSE THAT ARE ORDAINED OF GOD.
We have to be subject to our authorizes
1Pe 2:13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God's sake: WHETHER IT BE TO THE KING AS EXCELLING,
1Pe 2:14 OR TO GOVERNORS AS SENT BY HIM FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF EVILDOERS and for the praise of the good.That’s right AS SENT BY HIM FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF EVILDOERS.
Evil doers sometimes require force. Our Lord Himself used physical force against evildoers.
Joh 2:15 And when he had made, as it were, a scourge of little cords, HE DROVE THEM ALL OUT of the temple, the sheep also and the oxen: AND THE MONEY OF THE CHANGERS HE POURED OUT, AND THE TABLES HE OVERTHREW.Authority comes from above!
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered: Thou shouldst not have any power against me, UNLESS IT WERE GIVEN THEE FROM ABOVE. Therefore, he that hath delivered me to thee hath the greater sin.Where does Pilate’s authority come from?
Pro 8:12 I, wisdom, dwell in counsel, and am present in learned thoughts.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the Lord hateth evil; I hate arrogance, and pride, and every wicked way, and a mouth with a double tongue.
Pro 8:14 COUNSEL AND EQUITY IS MINE, prudence is mine, strength is mine.
Pro 8:15 BY ME KINGS REIGN, AND LAWGIVERS DECREE JUST THINGS.
Pro 8:16 BY ME PRINCES RULE, AND THE MIGHTY DECREE JUSTICE.Our Lord is a man of war!
Exo 15:2 The Lord is my strength and my praise, and he is become salvation to me: he is my God, and I will glorify him: the God of my father, and I will exalt him.
Exo 15:3 THE LORD IS AS A MAN OF WAR, ALMIGHTY IS HIS NAME.
Exo 15:4 Pharao's chariots and his army he hath cast into the sea: his chosen captains are drowned in the Red Sea.
Exo 15:5 The depths have covered them, they are sunk to the bottom like a stone.
Exo 15:6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is magnified in strength: thy right hand, O LORD, HATH SLAIN THE ENEMY.Murder is against the law of Love but not protecting innocent Children Women from murder from evil doers is also against the law of Love and Justice. There is no law against Love and if it takes killing [NOT Murdering] to save many innocent people from being murdered love will always prevail.
I hope you understand where I am coming from and don’t take it the wrong way.
God Bless
Quote Hi david,
I have tried that and all it seems to lead to is harrassment. If I do not reply you take that as agreement with the worst possible answer to the latest future scenario disaster scene you have dreamed up.I know my God has my life including my future in His hands. I do not need to live in dread of the future as He is with me. He said that the yoke was easy and the burden light and thus it has proved to be.
Letting my imagination run amok with horror possibilities is unrealistic when even death is good.
War is horror and it's not unrealistic. Yes, the train and the children were unrealistic. But, I too at that point was growing somewhat weary of this topic and decided to take it in a different direction.Quote I have tried that and all it seems to lead to is harrassment. If I do not reply you take that as agreement with the worst possible answer
When you do not reply Nick, I always take it the same–you cannot reply because your position is wrong–namely, following the governments no matter what. There are many Bible examples that show this to be wrong and in present times, governments tend to enjoy banning preaching. So what do you do? Do you stick to your “follow the government,” and not preach, or do you favor God, as the ultimate authority and preach?
You have never answered this question, and it's one that Jehovah's Witnesses the world over have faced and face.JOHN 15:18-20
“If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU. Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also; if they have observed my word, they will observe YOURS also.”Hi Scripture seeker. I have addressed most everything in your post. They can be found in this thread, the “Looking into JW” thread, and the “love among all” thread.
I have one question: Why do you think the early Christians would rather die than enter the military?
Quote Mat 26:52 Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Mat 5:39 But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other:
Amen!
But these scriptures are addressed to individuals and not those governing forces that are responsible for the WELFARE OF THEIR MEMBERS.
Somehow I doubt military leaders read these scriptures to their troops. But as an “individual,” Jesus words stand. The principle is true. Anyone shedding blood, by man will his own blood be shed.LUKE 22:49
“Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”MATTHEW. 26:52
“Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”No more noble cause could there have been–fighting for the Son of God. Yet, Jesus words stand.
Quote The officer Cornelius is a Religious man and his prayers where heard by God. Act 10:1 And there was a certain man in Caesarea, named Cornelius, a centurion of that which is called the ITALIAN BAND:
BAND [G4686]
G4686 σπεῖρα speira spi'-rah
Of immediate Latin origin, but ultimately a derivative of G138 in the sense of its cognate, G1507; a coil (spira, “spire”), that is, (figuratively) a mass of men (a Roman military cohort; also [by analogy] a squad of Levitical janitors): – band.Act 10:2 A religious man, and fearing God with all his house, giving much alms to the people and always praying to God.
Act 10:3 This man saw in a vision manifestly, about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him and saying to him: Cornelius.
Act 10:4 And he, beholding him. being seized with fear, said: What is it, Lord? And he said to him: Thy prayers and thy alms are ascended for a memorial in the sight of God.
Act 10:31 Cornelius, thy prayer is heard and thy alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.A centurion was praised by Christ
Mat 8:9 For I also am a man subject to authority, HAVING UNDER ME SOLDIERS; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him. AMEN I SAY TO YOU, I have not found so great faith in Israel.Were not these men (dont' forget Sergius Paulus also) associated with the military? Yes, at the time they accepted the Christian message. The Scriptures, though, do not tell us what Cornelius and others did after their conversion. No doubt Sergius Paulus, who was an intelligent man and “astounded at the teaching of Jehovah,” would soon scrutinize his secular position in the light of his newfound faith and make a proper decision. Cornelius would have done likewise. (Acts 10:1, 2, 44-48; 13:7, 12) There is no record that the disciples told them what action they must take. They could see that from their own study of God’s Word.—Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:3.
MICAH 4:3
“And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
ISAIAH 2:2-4
“It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded Jehovah’s judgment give evidence that he is their God.)Quote We have to be subject to our authorizes Here's something that occured to me today. Wives are to be subject to their husbands, children to their parents.
What if a husband wants a wife to do something that goes against God's laws? Are we to remain loyal to the scripture that says 'wives are subject to husbands,' or are we to remain loyal to the scripture that the husband wants the wife to break? What do you think?Quote Our Lord is a man of war!
Exo 15:2 The Lord is my strength and my praise, and he is become salvation to me: he is my God, and I will glorify him: the God of my father, and I will exalt him.
Exo 15:3 THE LORD IS AS A MAN OF WAR, ALMIGHTY IS HIS NAME.
Exo 15:4 Pharao's chariots and his army he hath cast into the sea: his chosen captains are drowned in the Red Sea.
Exo 15:5 The depths have covered them, they are sunk to the bottom like a stone.
Exo 15:6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is magnified in strength: thy right hand, O LORD, HATH SLAIN THE ENEMY.
There is a grand different between us and the Lord. Unlike human wars, his wars don't have casualties. He is completely just and wise. He is the judge of all the earth and has the right to decide who has the right to life. You do not possess that authority.Quote
I hope you understand where I am coming from and don’t take it the wrong way.
I think I do understand where you are coming from. I believe you are coming from where everyone else seems to be coming from–the world.Scripture Seeker
Great post, I'm in full agreementDavid,
Why did Jesus say put your sword back in it's place and not throw it away?Your always quoting “beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears” but this takes place after the Lord's return when He will rule with a rod of iron.
Quote David,
Why did Jesus say put your sword back in it's place and not throw it away?“Then they said: “Lord, look! here are two swords.” He said to them: “It is enough.”” (lu 22:38)
The fact that two swords were available among the disciples on the night of Jesus’ betrayal was not unusual for those times, and there is evidence that for Galileans in particular it was not uncommon to carry arms. (See The Jewish War, by F. Josephus, III, 42 [iii, 2].)ummm. Wolves perhaps? (John 10:12,13) People back then had to deal with things we dont. Yes? Where I live, carnivors aren't a problem. Back then, things were different. While we today don't usually have guns just laying around, it seems not unusual for them to just have a couple swords laying around, and they no doubt had their reasons.
David,
What point did Christ make after the sword was used?Suffer ye thus far?
Then He let them put Him to death, RIGHT?Even though I've mentioned it about 15 times, I have never really gotten a responce.
Early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army, in both the legions and auxilia, considering such service as wholly incompatible with the teachings of Christianity.In his treatise “The Chaplet, or De Corona” (XI), when discussing “whether warfare is proper at all for Christians,” Tertullian (c. 200 C.E.) argued from Scripture the unlawfulness even of a military life itself, concluding, “I banish from us the military life.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1957, Vol. III, pp. 99, 100.
WERE THE EARLY CHRISTIANS WRONG?
WAS THEIR REFUSAL TO ENGAGE IN MILITARY ACTION EVEN IF IT MEANT THEIR DEATH, SILLY?
HOW ARE WE TO UNDERSTAND THIS?Hi david,
Is this the Tertullian who first proposed God as a trinity, regarded Acts as heretical and eventually abandoned the church for the heresy of Montanism?David,
You quote writings from 200 C.E. as though they were scripture. You say you've never gotten a response, I still maintain that scriptures show that early Christians were just as prone to error as we are (as I submitted earlier). We should be following the teaching of scriptures, not other writings which support our view point.Quote Hi david,
Is this the Tertullian who first proposed God as a trinity, regarded Acts as heretical and eventually abandoned the church for the heresy of Montanism?I quoted about 20 references earlier. Here they are again:
Says Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (CX): “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 254)
In his treatise “The Chaplet, or De Corona” (XI), when discussing “whether warfare is proper at all for Christians,” Tertullian (c. 200 C.E.) argued from Scripture the unlawfulness even of a military life itself, concluding, “I banish from us the military life.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1957, Vol. III, pp. 99, 100.
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)
“It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” (The Early Church and the World, by C. J. Cadoux, 1955, pp. 275, 276)
“In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity.” (A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, p. 382)
“The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.” (Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125) “The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers.” (The New World’s Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West, 1929, p. 131)
“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.” (“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)
“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.
British historian C. J. Cadoux summarized the uncompromising position of the early Christians very well in his book, The Early Christian Attitude on War, on pages 245 and 246: “The early Christians took Jesus at his word, and understood his inculcations of gentleness and non-resistance in their literal sense. They closely identified their religion with peace; they strongly condemned war for the bloodshed which it involved; they appropriated to themselves the Old Testament prophecy which foretold the transformation of the weapons of war into the implements of agriculture [Isa. 2:4] . . . With one or two possible exceptions no soldier joined the Church and remained a soldier until the time of Marcus Aurelius (161-180 A.D.). Even then, refusal to serve was known to be the normal policy of the Christians—as the reproaches of Celsus (177-180 A.D.) testify. . . . The application of Jesus’ teaching to the question of military service was in a way unmistakable.”
A History of Christianity, Professor K. S. Latourette writes: “One of the issues on which the early Christians were at variance with the Græco-Roman world was participation in war. For the first three centuries no Christian writing which has survived to our time condoned Christian participation in war.”
The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, who reported: “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”
“The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces,” states an article in The Christian Century magazine. It explains that until the decade of 170-180 C.E., there is no evidence whatever that Christians served in the army. The article then adds: “Only gradually did Christians abandon their opposition to military service.”
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.
“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.”—Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.
“They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.“Origen [who lived in the second and third centuries of the Common Era] . . . remarks that ‘the Christian Church cannot engage in war against any nation. They have learned from their Leader that they are children of peace.’ In that period many Christians were martyred for refusing military service.”—Treasury of the Christian World Edited by A. Gordon Nasby, p 369
(Because Christ’s disciples refused to serve in the emperor’s legions, the Romans put many of them to death.)“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. The Christians . . . .felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.” (On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8)
Speaking of the early Christians, the book World History, The Story of Man’s Achievements says: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”
“The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces,” states an article in The Christian Century magazine. It explains that until the decade of 170-180 C.E., there is no evidence whatever that Christians served in the army. The article then adds: “Only gradually did Christians abandon their opposition to military service.”
“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . They would not hold political office.”—On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia, 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238.
Church hi
storian Augustus Neander reported that “the Christians were represented as men dead to the world, and useless for all affairs of life; . . . and it was asked, what would become of the business of life, if all were like them?”
“The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168.Christianity Today quotes church historian Roland Bainton: “From the end of the New Testament period to the decade 170-180 there is no evidence whatever of Christians in the army.”
Tertullian, a Christian writer born more than 100 years after Christ’s death, helps us to see how many early Christians viewed warfare and participation in it: “I think we must first inquire whether warfare is proper at all for Christians. . . . Shall it be held lawful to make an occupation of the sword, when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword shall perish by the sword? And shall the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?”
The magazine The Christian Century draws attention to another conscientious stand taken by the early Christians when it says: “The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces. Roland Bainton notes that ‘from the end of the New Testament period to the decade A.D. 170-180 there is no evidence whatever of Christians in the army’ (Christian Attitudes Toward War and Peace [Abingdon, 1960], pp. 67-8). . . . Swift says Justin Martyr ‘takes it as a matter of course that Christians refrain from violent acts.’”
Quote David,
You quote writings from 200 C.E. as though they were scripture. You say you've never gotten a response, I still maintain that scriptures show that early Christians were just as prone to error as we are (as I submitted earlier). We should be following the teaching of scriptures, not other writings which support our view point.What scripture does clearly show is that after the time of the apostles, there would be an apostasy. It had in fact already begun while the apostles were still alive. But when the apostles died off, as prophecied, by Jesus and others, there would be a falling away from the faith, a twisting of healthful teachings, a deviation from the truth, an apostasy.
So, if I say the answer is black,
and you say the answer is blue,
how do we determine which is correct?
How do we we know which is right?1.Jesus and apostles and disciples of his time–knew the truth (didn't have pagan teachings or false stories incorporated into their beliefs.)
2.At some point in time right after them, there would be false stories and twisted words and false teachers, etc. All this was fortold.
So we can't really just trust common “christian” belief's such as the trinity, immortality of the soul, hellfire, and other beliefs or traditions that arose a couple hundred years after Jesus. If we knew for certain that the early Christians (let's say those that lived in the first and second century) didn't believe in the trinity and that slowly that idea came into being and that this was a departure from what the early Christians believed, would not that mean a lot?
There was an apostasy as fortold. Either coincidentally, or not coincidentally, those claiming to be Christian decided to depart from the beliefs of the early Christians who would rather die than go into battle as a soldier.
I don't think it was a coincidence. I think the early Christians who were closer to the time of Christ and the apostles were closer to the truth than those who lived a couple hundred years later when it suddenly became ok to kill people for the government.And I am not leaving scripture out of this. I have quoted more scripture by far in support of what the early Christians believed than any have quoted for the support of killing people of other countries.
Here are some of these thoughts again. A lot of them don't have explanations as to why they are there, but I have used all of these in previous posts:
Quote LUKE 22:49
“Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”
MATTHEW. 26:52
“Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
JOHN 15:14,17
“YOU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU. . . .These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another.”
LUKE 6:27, 28:
“I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
1 JOHN 4:20
“If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.”
1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”
(No Christian can war against another Christian—it would be like a man fighting himself.)
ISAIAH 2:2-4
“It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded Jehovah’s judgment give evidence that he is their God.)
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4:
“Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.” (Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.)
MICAH 4:3
“And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
JOHN 17:6
“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”
(When the WORLD goes to war, what does a Christian do?)
MATTHEW 5:9
““Happy are the peaceable,” (See 2 Cor 13:11)
ROMANS 12:17-18
“Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men.”
ROMANS 13:10
“Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.”
JOHN 6:15
“Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to come and sei
ze him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”
JOHN 18:36 (Jesus told the Roman governor)
“My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”
JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as 1 John 5:19 says, “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as being “the ruler of the world.” So, no matter what worldly faction a person might support, under whose control would he really come?)
ACTS 4:19
“But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to YOU rather than to God, judge for yourselves.”
ACTS 5:29
“In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”
MATTHEW 22:21
“Pay back . . . Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”
(When Caesar demands what belongs to God, we must acknowledge that God has the prior claim.)
REVELATION 13:10
“If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.”
GENESIS 9:6
“Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.”
(All mankind today are descendants of Noah; hence, this divine law that emphasizes respect for life is binding on all humans who desire God’s approval.)
ROMANS 12:19-21
“Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
LUKE 21:20-21
““Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judéa begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her;”
(In those days, Jewish factions were fighting one another, both verbally and by shedding blood. But Jesus’ disciples did not get mixed up in those revolutionary campaigns. For some 30 years they waited in Jerusalem. Then they obeyed Jesus’ prophetic sign by “fleeing to the mountains.” Their neutral stance and their flight resulted in their salvation.)
“A slave of the Lord does not need to fight.”–2 Timothy 2:24
(While the context shows that Paul was here referring to verbal fights, the original language word rendered “fight” (ma?khe?sthai) is generally associated with armed or hand-to-hand combat.)
PSALM 2:2
“The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,”
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”
1 CORINTHIANS 11:3
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”
(God is above man.)
JOHN 19:10-11
“Hence Pilate said to him: “Are you not speaking to me? Do you not know I have authority to release you and I have authority to impale you?” Jesus answered him: “You would have no authority at all against me unless it had been granted to you from above. This is why the man that handed me over to you has greater sin.””
TITUS 1:16
“They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.”
ACTS 10:34,35
“God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”
PSALM 46:9
“He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.”Quote Hi david,
The fruit of Tertullian would have to be considered suspect.
Fine, throw his quote out.This does not change the fact that the early Christians, who were true Christians, refused to engage in military actions even if it meant their own death.
The Belgian newspaper La Dernière Heure relates that during the war Roman Catholic Cardinal Amette of Paris said this to the French soldiers:
“My brothers, comrades of the French army and of their glorious allies, the Almighty God is on our side. . . . God is near to our brave soldiers in battle, he gives them strength and fortifies them against the enemy. . . . God will give us the victory.”
At the same time, on the other side, the Catholic archbishop of Cologne, Germany, said to German soldiers:
“God is with us in this fight for righteousness . . . We command you in the name of God, to fight to the last drop of your blood for the honor and glory of the country. . . . God knows that we are on the side of righteousness and he will give us the victory.”
(La Dernière Heure, January 7, 1967)As the New York Times observed:
“In the past local Catholic hierarchies almost always supported the wars of their nations, blessing troops and offering prayers for victory, while another group of [Catholic] bishops on the other side publicly prayed for the opposite outcome.” (New York Times, December 29, 1966, p. 3.)
Protestant leaders did the same.Does this make any sense in the light of Jesus words:
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”” (JOHN 13:35)
No, it doesn’t. It does seem to match up better with these words:
MATTHEW 7:15-20
““Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].”Have this world’s religions taught their followers such love? Have they taught them that this love should surmount national boundaries and racial or language differences? Have the churches of Christendom proved true to their claim to follow Jesus Christ as “the Prince of Peace”?
After Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935, the Pittsburgh Courier commented:
“The church follows the flag, even though the flag be drenched with the blood of innocent victims of war madness slaughtered in the name of civilization . . .
“And just as the Catholic Church has either approved or seldom disapproved of this international robbery, exploitation and murder, so have the Protestant churches. . . .
“In large part, the spiritual weakness of the Christian Church today is ascribable to its constant compromise with the evils it is supposed to combat.”
(Pittsburgh, Pa., Courier, November 9, 1935.)Because the world’s religions have undeniably ‘prostituted’ themselves for political and commercial and social gain, this religious empire, Babylon the Great, is pictured as a “harlot.” Of this harlotrous religious empire it is said: “In her was found the blood of . . . all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” (Revelation 18:24) Does that sound shocking—that the world’s religions bear the principal guilt for all the slaughter of world history? Yet the influence they wield and the lead they have set in supporting war, as well as carrying on violent crusades and religious persecution, bring exactly that responsibility upon them.—Compare Matthew 23:33-36; 27:20-23, 25.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
