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Hi david,
You say we should work these things out for ourselves? But do you let us do so?My views may be very similar to yours but you would assume they are not simply because I do not give you the answers you want.
I do not think you, or any other man who has not been given authority over my life greater than God's, has the right to tell me how to live.
That is lawmaking, the role of God and those in God given authority, which you do not have.
It may make you feel comfortable with lots of man made laws to guide your steps but when were you given the authority to apply these new laws to us?
Quote Hi david,
You say we should work these things out for ourselves? But do you let us do so?
Nick, what am I doing with this subject that is different with how you deal with the trinity belief?Paul “reasoned with them from the scriptures, expaining and proving by references….” (Acts 17:2)
I have a lot of scriptures that I stronlgy feel indicate that taking an active role in human government warefare is wrong. I have references showing that the early Christians (those who perhaps still weren't affected by gangrenous apostate thinking) refused to engage in military action. What do you think Paul was doing when he was “reasoning with them.” If there was a simple law on every matter, there would be no reason to reason with people. If that was the case, you would just show them the scripture, and if they can't accept it, what can you do? He was “reasoning” with them.Quote My views may be very similar to yours but you would assume they are not simply because I do not give you the answers you want.
Nick, I've had a couple discussions with you in the past where we talked for pages before I realized you agreed with me. I believe this is because you refuse to answer questions and seem to disagree with everything I say, while you yourself restrict what you say.Quote I do not think you, or any other man who has not been given authority over my life greater than God's, has the right to tell me how to live.
Of course not. You are completely free to kill whom you want. I am merely suggesting an alternate path, one that may lead to a much better place. I believe we should look to God's Word to decide whether government sponsored killing is something Christians would want to engage in.Quote That is lawmaking, the role of God and those in God given authority, which you do not have.
You keep accusing me of being a lawmaker. I am simply reasoning from scripture and history whether true Christians would want to engage in military action. And I strongly believe history and the Bible show they shouldn't.Quote It may make you feel comfortable with lots of man made laws to guide your steps but when were you given the authority to apply these new laws to us?
When were you given the authority to apply the non-trinitarian belief to others? People can choose to believe what they want. How much better when they see what the Bible and history say and can make a decision that doesn't infringe on their clean conscience.
Nick, it doesn't make me feel ovelry comfortable. The Greek word for “Witness” is martyr. I truely believe I am much more likely to come in contact with bullets than you, because of my position. I have had two people (both farmers interestingly) that on my knocking on their door with Bible in hand, have told me they were going to get their gun, and for me to get off their property. Needless to say, I left.Quote My views may be very similar to yours but you would assume they are not
OK, if your views are similar to mine and we've discussed this for many many pages, please let everyone hear your views (the view we haven't heard, the ones that are similar to mine). Please let ME hear them.Nick, this is a very … intense topic. It brings out deep feelings in people. Some may have lost relatives to wars. Most, if not all on this forum are quite far from any trenches however. Please let me know what you REALLY believe if you have been hiding your similar beliefs.
Hi david,
I do not kill but am a channel for the healing grace of God. It is rather your rules about relationships with the armed forces I find unrealistic and beyond scripture.While no scripture says: Christians must not enter the armed forces, neither does such a scripture exist that says: Christians should enter the armed forces.
Especially since the early Christians refused to engage in military action, even to the point of death to themselves, it is worth our time to find out why. Despite repeatedly saying there are no scriptures that apply, there are many. One should “reason” on them.Here's one that contains a principle. The principle comes near the end.
GENESIS 9:6
“Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.”
If we are all made in God's image, who are you to kill? Hence, anyone shedding man's blood, by man will his own blood be shed.
(All mankind today are descendants of Noah; hence, this divine law that emphasizes respect for life is binding on all humans who desire God’s approval.)You still don't get it do you David?
John 12
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.Ephesians 3
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;Nothing entering into your body of flesh can touch the inner man.
Your body of flesh can be damaged sure but that body is of earth NOT of heaven.Quote You still don't get it do you David? John 12
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.Ephesians 3
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;Nothing entering into your body of flesh can touch the inner man.
Your body of flesh can be damaged sure but that body is of earth NOT of heaven.
Are you referring to smoking? I refuse to have this conversation with you in this thread. Create a new thread.2 PETER 2:1-3
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these THE WAY OF THE TRUTH WILL BE SPOKEN OF ABUSIVELY.”
“Perhaps nothing has done more to discredit Christianity than its practice of taking a stand virtually indistinguishable from that of non-Christians on the practice of war,” notes The Christian Century article. “That Christians on the one hand espouse the faith of the gentle Savior while on the other they warmly support religious or nationalistic wars has gone far toward damaging the faith.”“The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces,” states an article in The Christian Century magazine. It explains that until the decade of 170-180 C.E., there is no evidence whatever that Christians served in the army. The article then adds: “ONLY GRADUALLY DID CHRISTIANS ABANDON THEIR OPPOSITION TO MILITARY SERVICE..” (Caps added)
Because Christ’s disciples refused to serve in the emperor’s legions, the Romans put many of them to death.
“Origen [who lived in the second and third centuries of the Common Era] . . . remarks that ‘the Christian Church cannot engage in war against any nation. They have learned from their Leader that they are children of peace.’ In that period many Christians were martyred for refusing military service.”—Treasury of the Christian World Edited by A. Gordon Nasby, p 369
Hi david,
And Gandhi held strong political views on these matters too.Surely before you deliberately disobey God given authority you would prayerfully consider every aspect and every alternative before doing so?
Or is it one size fits all and you just always refuse?
I don't know a lot about Gandhi. So let's talk about the early Christians, and the Bible writers, and God's servants in the Bible.
God’s servants have always recognized that there are limits to the subjection that they conscientiously owe to the superior authorities.
About the time that Moses was born in Egypt, Pharaoh commanded two Hebrew midwives to kill all newborn Hebrew boys. The midwives, however, preserved the babies alive.
NICK, were they wrong to disobey Pharaoh? No, they were following their God-given conscience, and GOD BLESSED THEM FOR IT. (THE BIBLE-Exodus 1:15-20)When Israel was in exile in Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar demanded that his officials, including the Hebrews Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, bow before an image that he had placed on the plain of Dura. The three Hebrews refused.
NICK, WERE THEY WRONG? No, since following the king’s command would have meant disobeying God’s law.—Exodus 20:4, 5; Daniel 3:1-18.Similarly NICK, when the Jewish authorities commanded Peter and John to stop preaching about Jesus, they replied:
“Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves.” (Acts 4:19; 5:29) They could not keep silent.WHY DID THE EARLY CHRISTIANS NOT SERVE AS SOLDIERS?
Doubtless, each one carefully studied God’s Word and laws and made his personal decision on the basis of his Bible-trained conscience. They were neutral, “no part of the world,” and their neutrality forbade them to choose sides in this world’s conflicts. (John 17:16; 18:36) Further, they belonged to God. (2 Timothy 2:19) Laying down their lives for the State would have meant giving to Caesar what belonged to God. Moreover, they were part of an international brotherhood bound together in love. (John 13:34, 35; Colossians 3:14; 1 Peter 4:8; 5:9) They could not in good conscience take up arms with the possibility of killing a fellow Christian.
If the governmental authority demands something that offends a trained Christian conscience Nick, it is going beyond its God-given limit. Jesus indicated this when he said:
“Pay back . . . Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” (Matthew 22:21)
When Caesar demands what belongs to God, we must acknowledge that God has the prior claim.
Quote Surely before you deliberately disobey God given authority you would prayerfully consider every aspect and every alternative before doing so?
Nick, I wonder what you think of the Bible examples I mentioned where God's servants disobeyed the authorities BECAUSE IN EACH CASE, IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO–TO DISOBEY THE GOD APPOINTED AUTHORITIES, AND TO OBEY GOD.
What do you think of those references?Hi david,
Still trying to cure the ills of the world and denigrate authority? This broken record needs changing.It is not just false prophets David
2 Thessalonians 2 “God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”This Book we call our Bible with its scriptural doctrines has for two thousand years been edited first by the Sanhedrin which is the name given to the council of seventy-one Jewish sages who constituted the supreme court and legislative body of Ancient Israel.
Matthew 27, “But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.”
The very people who demanded that Christ be put to death on the cross and then by those who took sport in feeding Christians to the lions, more people who were anti-Christ.
This book today in its edited form has created a very strong delusion, which is being used to call down the wrath of God to justify spilling mens blood on both sides of most disputes,
filling this world with violence despite this fact.
Genesis 6, “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt;
for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.”Any truths left in this book we now call the Bible are mostly obscure to say the least or
as Christ put it “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matt 15), (Mark 7).Quote (TJStarfire @ May 05 2006,12:46) It is not just false prophets David 2 Thessalonians 2 “God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”This Book we call our Bible with its scriptural doctrines has for two thousand years been edited first by the Sanhedrin which is the name given to the council of seventy-one Jewish sages who constituted the supreme court and legislative body of Ancient Israel.
Matthew 27, “But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.”
The very people who demanded that Christ be put to death on the cross and then by those who took sport in feeding Christians to the lions, more people who were anti-Christ.
This book today in its edited form has created a very strong delusion, which is being used to call down the wrath of God to justify spilling mens blood on both sides of most disputes,
filling this world with violence despite this fact.
Genesis 6, “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt;
for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.”Any truths left in this book we now call the Bible are mostly obscure to say the least or
as Christ put it “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matt 15), (Mark 7).
Hi TJS,
If it were not for the work of God to preserve truth for us you might be right. Some things have been altered and some mistranslated and some books left out but God has still left us with a reservoir of enough essential and beautiful pure truth, to be able, with the help of the Spirit, find the way back to our true Father.Quote Hi david,
Still trying to cure the ills of the world and denigrate authority? This broken record needs changing.I'm repeating myself because you have yet to comment on these servants of God who purposefully disobeyed their governements in order to do God's will. (And were blessed for it.)
Nick, I know you don't want to comment on these scriptures as they are devastating to your belief that you must always obey your government.
Quote Any truths left in this book we now call the Bible are mostly obscure to say the least or
as Christ put it “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matt 15), (Mark 7).Does God not have the power to protect His book?
Quote If it were not for the work of God to preserve truth for us you might be right. Some things have been altered and some mistranslated and some books left out but God has still left us with a reservoir of enough essential and beautiful pure truth, to be able, with the help of the Spirit, find the way back to our true Father. Quote Does God not have the power to protect His book? Daniel 12 Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.Romans 1 When they knew God, they glorified him Not As God, neither were they thankful;
but became Vain in their Imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.2 Thessalonians 2 God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.GOD has the power to do or be whatever he wishes.
Quote I'm repeating myself because you have yet to comment on these servants of God who purposefully disobeyed their governements in order to do God's will. (And were blessed for it.) Is there any follower of GOD who thinks that creatures of flesh are, or even could be, above those of pure energy?
Quote (TJStarfire @ May 06 2006,03:11) Quote If it were not for the work of God to preserve truth for us you might be right. Some things have been altered and some mistranslated and some books left out but God has still left us with a reservoir of enough essential and beautiful pure truth, to be able, with the help of the Spirit, find the way back to our true Father. Quote Does God not have the power to protect His book? Daniel 12 Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.Romans 1 When they knew God, they glorified him Not As God, neither were they thankful;
but became Vain in their Imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.2 Thessalonians 2 God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.GOD has the power to do or be whatever he wishes.
Hi TKS,
All you have quoted is only known to be true because you and I know and trust that the Spirit of God has penned those words through men.Quote (david @ May 05 2006,23:57) Quote Hi david,
Still trying to cure the ills of the world and denigrate authority? This broken record needs changing.I'm repeating myself because you have yet to comment on these servants of God who purposefully disobeyed their governements in order to do God's will. (And were blessed for it.)
Nick, I know you don't want to comment on these scriptures as they are devastating to your belief that you must always obey your government.
Hi david,
No amount of scripture showing where men were forced to choose between the Law of the land and the demands of God justifies a stand that ALL involvement with men in a military capacity is evil and to be refused in my opinion.That is according to my conscience and I would not force such difficult decisions on anyone.
Your viewpoint and opinion is of course is from what your conscience teaches you.
But that is your conscience and you should not make moral laws for all according to your conscience should you?
Quote Hi david,
No amount of scripture showing where men were forced to choose between the Law of the land and the demands of God justifies a stand that ALL involvement with men in a military capacity is evil and to be refused in my opinion.
Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. But what it does certainly justify is the stand that:
When godly devotion and government allegiance are at odds, a Christian, a true Christian would and should choose to remain loyal to God.Nick, what does it mean to be “no part of the world?”
Quote Your viewpoint and opinion is of course is from what your conscience teaches you. But that is your conscience and you should not make moral laws for all according to your conscience should you?
I almost get the feeling by your repeatedly saying this that you are bothered by the things I keep pointing out.
Obviously, I do not have the power to “force” anything on you. We are having a conversation about what God wants.
I believe God wants us to not 'shed man's blood' and not take up 'the sword,' and to be “peaceable,” and to be “no part of the world,” separate and distinct and different from mankind in gerenal.
You believe God wants you to be supportive (but to not literally do the killing yourself) of war.
You want to help the war effort but at the same time reject military action as something you shouldn't yourself be a part of.Quote But that is your conscience and you should not make moral laws for all according to your conscience should you? Nick, I am not making laws. I am stating principles.
If Jesus said: 'All those who take up the sword will die by the sword,' do you think he wants you to take up the sword? That would mean he wants you to die.
And the fact that the early Christians consciences would not allow them to engage in military action but rather, they often suffered loss of life because of this stand, is also not a law, but an interesting tidbit of history that has to make you wonder if you are truly on the right side. It's not a law. It is a reasoning point.Of course, in the end, you will do what you want to do. Everyone will do what they want to do and believe what they want to believe. But this forum allows us to discuss these beliefs in the light of the Bible, right? It's almost like you want to end this conversation.
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