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Hi david,
These external restrictions placed on men such as rebellion against God given authority, may make them feel righteous but it is only self righteousness surely?Jesus stated:
“You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you,” and one of his commandments is that we “love one another.” (John 15:14, 17)And we would especially love our brothers, despite what country they live in. So how could we then pick up a sword and slaughter them?
1 JOHN 4:20
“If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar.”Quote Quote
And when Daniels friends were to follow the law made and bow down to the image, did they?
Think of Daniel in the lion's pit.
Or when king ahaseurus made the decree that all the Jews were to die, was that God's will Nick?Any comments?
What we learn from this is simple: Our allegience is to God above all else. If our government makes a law that violates God's commands, they we must choose to “obey God as ruler rather then men,” as the scripture goes.
Quote Quote
Nick, I know you're not part of a religion that's banned in several countries, and so perhaps are having difficulty with this. But if God says: “Preach the good news,” and the governement says: “You may not preach,” whom would you listen to Nick? Who?Just wondering?
Nick, I know you don't like anwering these hard questions. But I live in a country that has banned Jehovah's Witnesses and so do you. It helps to know where your allegiance really lies before you come to that situation, doesn't it?
When the WORLD goes to war, if it ever does again, what would a Christian do?
“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (John 17:6)
True Christians, are no part of the world, that is.
THOSE KNOWN AS EARLY CHRISTIANS
Early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army, in both the legions and auxilia, considering such service as wholly incompatible with the
teachings of Christianity.Says Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (CX): “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 254)
In his treatise “The Chaplet, or De Corona” (XI), when discussing “whether warfare is proper at all for Christians,” Tertullian (c. 200 C.E.) argued from Scripture the unlawfulness even of a military life itself, concluding, “I banish from us the military life.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1957, Vol. III, pp. 99, 100.
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)
“It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” (The Early Church and the World, by C. J. Cadoux, 1955, pp. 275, 276)
“In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity.” (A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, p. 382)
“The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.” (Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125) “The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers.” (The New World’s Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West, 1929, p. 131)
“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.” (“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.
British historian C. J. Cadoux summarized the uncompromising position of the early Christians very well in his book, The Early Christian Attitude on War, on pages 245 and 246:
“The early Christians took Jesus at his word, and understood his inculcations of gentleness and non-resistance in their literal sense. They closely identified their religion with peace; they strongly condemned war for the bloodshed which it involved; they appropriated to themselves the Old Testament prophecy which foretold the transformation of the weapons of war into the implements of agriculture [Isa. 2:4] . . . With one or two possible exceptions no soldier joined the Church and remained a soldier until the time of Marcus Aurelius (161-180 A.D.). Even then, refusal to serve was known to be the normal policy of the Christians—as the reproaches of Celsus (177-180 A.D.) testify. . . . The application of Jesus’ teaching to the question of military service was in a way unmistakable.”Unmistakable to the early Christians. Yet, unclear to some today?
“Jehovah’s Witnesses maintain a strict neutrality in time of war,” notes the Australian Encyclopædia.
While as individuals they may choose to take this position, they do not interfere with the affairs of the government under which they live. Thus they did not support Hitler’s war, and so none of them were tried during the Nuremberg trials as war criminals.In Ring magazine of November 4, 1992, said of Jehovah’s Witnesses: “They would choose to die rather than kill someone. Consequently, I am sure if only Jehovah’s Witnesses lived on the earth then wars would not break out anywhere.”
Reo M. Christenson, a professor of political science, discussed in The Christian Century whether a genuine Christian could take part in war, and he concluded:
“Can anyone seriously conceive of Jesus hurling hand grenades at his enemies, using a machine gun, manipulating a flamethrower, dropping nuclear bombs or launching an ICBM which would kill or cripple thousands of mothers and children? The question is so absurd that it scarcely merits an answer. If Jesus could not do this and be true to his character, then how can we do it and be true to him?”
A thought provoking question, is it not?I don't remember If I shared this or not, but I thought this would fit here.
I once worked at a “used” car lot. I did some mechanic work on “some” of the cars and I always opened the place in the morning . One morning I pulled up and began to walk to the door when I noticed a man charging at me screeming “you sold my wife a piece of junk” The Holy Spirit came upon me and I turned to the man and said “can I help you” and he just simmered down like fire turned off under boiling water in a cheap pot! He said in a gentile voice my wife bought a car here and it's bad. I said I don't sell cars you'll have to come back when the owner is here.
Brothers and sisters LOVE conquers! I showed him the love of Jesus and he just melted. Didn't have to defend myself, the Holy Spirit defended me with LOVE.
There was another time when I went boating with my brother we were water skiing and again some people were speeding at us screeming you're disturbing my crab traps. My brother began screeming curse words. Some how my eyes met his and when they did I shook my head NO and thought let it go.
The guy looked at me in a strange way I can't describe.Had I left it up to my brother there wpuld have been war. Again LOVE won the day Glory to Jesus and our Father.
So I'll just rely on the spirit. If I'm killed then it's because I'm supposed to be with the Lord. Praise His Holy Name!
When I'm attacked I'm going to just rely on the Holy Spirit. Jesus said we could tell mountians to be thrown in a lake and If we had faith it would happen.
Our God is awsome, VERY awsome! Trust Him!
Love does win the day, Kenrch, in one way or another. Helps keep the blood pressure down too! Great stories!
Quote If I'm killed then it's because I'm supposed to be with the Lord. Praise His Holy Name!
Those who have faith in God value their relationship with him more than their own life. To disregard his commands and save your own life wouldn't mean a lot.
Kenrch, what do you think of “Christians” who kill?MATTHEW. 26:52
“Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”COULD THERE HAVE BEEN ANY HIGHER CAUCE FOR WHICH TO FIGHT THAN TO SAFEGUARD THE SON OF GOD?
Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.
Shortly after he had instituted the Memorial of his death, Jesus saw to it that his disciples had two swords with them. For what purpose? To establish a vital principle, one that all Christians would need to observe. When the soldier band came to arrest Jesus in Gethsemane, Peter wielded a sword, striking off the right ear of Malchus, a slave of the Jewish high priest.
Was it not a noble thing to fight thus in behalf of the Son of God?
Jesus did not think so. He healed the slave’s ear and reminded Peter that His heavenly Father was able to send 12 legions of angels to Jesus’ aid. Jesus there stated the fundamental principle: “All those who take the sword will perish by the sword.”—Matthew 26:51-53; Luke 22:36, 38, 49-51; John 18:10, 11.
Christians of the first century would later recall Jesus’ fervent prayer to Jehovah, in which he said of his disciples:
“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”
They would remember Jesus’ explanatory answer to Pontius Pilate:
“My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (John 17:14, 16; 18:36)
In those days, Jewish factions were fighting one another, both verbally and by shedding blood. But Jesus’ disciples did not get mixed up in those revolutionary campaigns. For some 30 years they waited in Jerusalem. Then they obeyed Jesus’ prophetic sign by “fleeing to the mountains.” Their neutral stance and their flight resulted in their salvation.—Matthew 24:15, 16.History shows that in the next hundred years or so, Christians refused to take part in military action. But with the fortold apostasy, great changes came.
Quote (david @ May 03 2006,06:30) Quote If I'm killed then it's because I'm supposed to be with the Lord. Praise His Holy Name!
Those who have faith in God value their relationship with him more than their own life. To disregard his commands and save your own life wouldn't mean a lot.
Kenrch, what do you think of “Christians” who kill?
Rev 13:10 If any man is for captivity, into captivity he goeth: if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.Hey Dave what is this scripture saying?
Hi david,
The Law of the Spirit is written on our hearts by God.
Men who try to prescribe new laws for us make themselves as gods.God tells us not to kill.
You say do not become a part of the armed forces even to feed them or tend the sick and wounded.
That is a new Law.
Anyone who can read knows that you can't shed mans blood without turning your back on GOD the father or His son.
It will be held against you on the day of judgment
However, if you repent, the only thing you can't be forgiven for is denying that ghosts can be holy.And what is that about cigarettes?
What is wrong with smoking?
Matthew 15 Do you still not understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the sewage?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man.Quote (david @ May 03 2006,06:30) Quote If I'm killed then it's because I'm supposed to be with the Lord. Praise His Holy Name!
Those who have faith in God value their relationship with him more than their own life. To disregard his commands and save your own life wouldn't mean a lot.
Kenrch, what do you think of “Christians” who kill?
Hi david,
So when the Government, with it's God given authority, orders you to join the Army, in what way is this against the Law of God?
God never said that we must not join an army. He never even said we must not wear uniform or even bear arms. He certainly never said we must not feed or tend the wounded soldiers so where is this new law coming from?
Men?
So why would you follow them?Quote Hi david,
Is this another favourite JW moral law?
Fine, don't answer the question. As a doctor, I would think you would know what a pair of lungs look like and understand the pollutants that go into the body, and that are spread to other non-smokers around the smoker. And so I was using what I would have thought was an example of the fact that: If dropping a Nuclear bomb on Hiroshema is wrong, would not creating such a weapon of destruction FOR THAT PURPOSE also be wrong? But you refuse to answer such questions.
The Bible doesn't say: “Do not join the army.”
And neither does it say: “Don't create nuclear weapons so millions can have their faces melt off.”
I've noticed that every time I mention smoking, you refuse to answer the question. I believe you did once say you don't smoke, yet you seem to defend it, by refusing to say how vile it is.
No, nowhere does the Bible say: “You must not smoke.”
But then again, were cigarettes around back then.
Luckily, Jehovah has laid down numerous PRINCIPLES that allow us to reason things out for ourselves. And this is good. We don't need to be told a million different specific laws.
If we are told the principle: “Love your neighbor,” it should be obvious you are not to kill him. But I guess it's not so obvious to some.Quote And what is that about cigarettes?
What is wrong with smoking?
Perhaps that question deserves another thread. There are many Bible principles that apply. The one above for example, “love your neighbor.” Anyway, back to this thread.Quote Hi david,
So when the Government, with it's God given authority, orders you to join the Army, in what way is this against the Law of God?
You're right nick. Nowhere does the Bible specifically say: Should a Christian join the armed forces? But the Bible does say many things that we can use to judge for ourselves what we should do. THE EARLY CHRISTIANS, who refused to engage in military pursuits, must have understood these principles:
MATTHEW. 26:52
“Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’” (Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.)
The fact that two swords were available among the disciples on the night of Jesus’ betrayal was not unusual for those times (Lu 22:38), and there is evidence that for Galileans in particular it was not uncommon to carry arms. (See The Jewish War, by F. Josephus, III, 42 [iii, 2].) Jesus’ words at Luke 22:36, “Let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one,” would not indicate that his disciples were about to enter into a hazardous life. Rather, he desired to have a sword available among his followers on that night in order to demonstrate clearly that, though they would come into circumstances that could easily provoke armed resistance, he did not intend to resort to the sword but would give himself up voluntarily in harmony with God’s will. Thus, when Peter did react and try to put up armed resistance, lopping off the ear of Malchus, Jesus ordered him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Mt 26:52; Joh 18:10, 11) Certainly, Peter’s sword and the other one at hand would have availed little against such a large group of armed men, and by trying to use them, they would undoubtedly have ‘perished by the sword.’ (Mt 26:47) More important, such attempted delivery of Jesus would have failed, being completely contrary to Jehovah God’s purpose. (Mt 26:53, 54) As it was, later that day Jesus could plainly state to Pilate: “If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—Joh 18:36.
JOHN 15:14,17
“YOU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU. . . .These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another.”
LUKE 6:27, 28:
“I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
1 JOHN 4:20
“If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.”
1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”
(No Christian can war against another Christian—it would be like a man fighting himself.)
ISAIAH
“It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded Jehovah’s judgment give evidence that he is their God.)
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4:
“Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.” (Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.)
MICAH 4:3
“And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
JOHN 17:6
“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”
(When the WORLD goes to war, what does a Christian do?)
MATTHEW 5:9
““Happy are the peaceable,” (See 2 Cor 13:11)
ROMANS 12:17-18
“Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men.”
ROMANS 13:10
“Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.”
JOHN 6:15
“Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”
JOHN 18:36 (Jesus told the Roman governor)
“My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”
JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do yo
u not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as 1 John 5:19 says, “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as being “the ruler of the world.” So, no matter what worldly faction a person might support, under whose control would he really come?)
ACTS 4:19
“But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to YOU rather than to God, judge for yourselves.”
ACTS 5:29
“In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”
REVELATION 13:10
“If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.”
GENESIS 9:6
“Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.”
ROMANS 12:19-21
“Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”These are some of the scriptures that a discerning Christian would want to consider when determining whether it is God's will to support government killing. I'm sure there are others. I just began looking at this subject 3 days ago.
Quote God never said that we must not join an army. He never even said we must not wear uniform or even bear arms. He certainly never said we must not feed or tend the wounded soldiers so where is this new law coming from?
Men?
So why would you follow them?
Christians are waging a war, but it is not a fleshly one.
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4:
“Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”Quote God never said that we must not join an army.
The Bible doesn't specifically say a lot of things Nick. It doesn't say: “The trinity is a false doctrine.” But you believe it is. Why? Because the Bible has scriptures that lead you to that conclusion. The trinity doctrine arose a couple hundred years after Jesus. I believe you believe that the earliest Christians did not believe in the trinity.
Well, it seems the earliest Christians also did not believe it right to go to war, or engage in military worldly killing.Quote He certainly never said we must not feed or tend the wounded soldiers so where is this new law coming from?
Men?
So why would you follow them?It's not the fact that they wear hats, or tie their shoes a certain way, or trivial things like this Nick. It's the purpose of the army, and the one behind the world. Several times in scripture satan is referred to as the “ruler of the [or “this”] world.” Does that have any meaning to you? Does the Bible actually mean it when it says that? Do you just dismiss this verse? In what way is Satan the ruler of this world if he has no influence over the world? Is not the “whole world lying in the power of the wicked one”? So when the world goes to war, who is the cause behind the torture, slaughter, killings? God, or Satan?
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