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“Origen [who lived in the second and third centuries of the Common Era] . . . remarks that ‘the Christian Church cannot engage in war against any nation. They have learned from their Leader that they are children of peace.’ In that period many Christians were martyred for refusing military service.”—Treasury of the Christian World Edited by A. Gordon Nasby, p 369
Do you think the early Christians were wrong Nick?
Quote Hi David,
So it is OK to kill at times-under the instructions of God?Are you suggesting that the wars of today are under God's command? If so, name a war and tell me what side God was on.
Quote Why is it wrong to join up with the armed forces? Do they not need cooks and doctors and nurses and general helpers as well? Imagine a man with a gun in his hand walking down the street shooting people. Do you approach him and offer him food? Do you support his actions?
While God allows governments for our welfare, so we don't have chaos, he does not support them. Was He behind Nazi Germany, as an extreme example? Or was Satan, “the ruler of the world,” behind all the terrible bloody battles we've seen? I think the Bible makes it clear that it is Satan who is ruling the world right now.
Yes, we are to obey the governments, if they don't tell us to disobey God. If you were in the time of the Roman government, with Pontius Pilot and Herod, would you have supported their actions? Would you have said: “It's ok, it's the government.”Some try to justify today’s religious wars by noting that God approved of the killing of Canaanites by ancient Israelites.
Yet, that is no justification for professed Christians to wage war today.
The Israelites were DIRECTLY instructed by God to act as executioners of his righteous judgments against demon-worshiping peoples, whose worship included gross sexual immorality and child sacrifice.—Deuteronomy 7:1-5; 2 Chronicles 28:3.An evidence that the wars of ancient Israel were no ordinary conflicts is the miraculous nature of the victories that God gave the nation. For example, the ancient Israelites were once directed to use horns, jars, and torches—hardly instruments of classic warfare! On another occasion singers were positioned at the front of an Israelite army that was facing an overwhelming force of invading armies from several nations.—Judges 7:17-22; 2 Chronicles 20:10-26.
Moreover, when, on occasion, the Israelites engaged in wars that were not ordained by God, they were not blessed by him and they suffered defeat. (Deuteronomy 28:15, 25; Judges 2:11-14; 1 Samuel 4:1-3, 10, 11)
Israel’s wars, therefore, cannot be invoked to justify the wars waged in Christendom.
Comparing the two, seems a little out of place to me.david
Speaking of the early Christians, the book World History, The Story of Man’s Achievements says: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”
“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. The Christians . . . .felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.” (On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8)
What did the early Christians know that made them consider it “a violation of their faith to enter military service”?
They knew the truth.
Hi david,
Did Jesus express any opinion about the roman occupation of Israel?All I am saying is making moral judgements on the lives of other people and what they are called to do in serving God is a luxury we should not waste too much time on.
Quote All I am saying is making moral judgements on the lives of other people and what they are called to do in serving God is a luxury we should not waste too much time on.
ANd all I'm saying, is that the Christians that lived before the apostasy really began, believed it a “violation of their faith” to enter military service and were even martyred for it.Nick, how do you understand Jesus' words: “return your sword to it's place. EVeryone who takes up the sword will perish by the sword.”
He had asked for swords to be brought, true. When they said we have a few, he said, “It is enough.” And when Peter used the sword, the lesson was given, and those words above were said. The lesson was clear.And the early Christians seemed to understand that lesson.
Hi david,
Would you be painting their roof while your friend's house was burning?People need to come to salvation rather than have morals imposed on them by others from the outside. No amount of good moral behaviour can impress God and save us.
But killing people for a worldly government does impress God? I think not.
Quote Would you be painting their roof while your friend's house was burning?
Putting out someones fire is a good thing.
Shooting bullets at the people inside the fire, not so good.Give them water Nick, not bullets.
Nick, does God take sides on football games? On any football game, there are people praying on both sides, are there not? So who does God cheer for?
Similarly, what country does God choose to favor? Name that country, if you can. And name the countries that deserve to suffer death in war, if you can.
I'm guessing God is on the side of New Zealand, in your opinion. And if you lived in Spain, God would be on Spain's side. If in America, God would be on america's side.
The truth is, Satan is the “ruler of the world.”
Jehovah is allowing this mess to happen to show us we need him–to let us see what happens when we choose independence from God.The world’s religions are ‘rotten trees’ that have produced “bad fruit,” in particular, by promoting bloody wars. In the Bible the world empire of false religion is described as a spiritual harlot called “Babylon the Great.” The Bible says that “in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”—Revelation 17:3-6; 18:24.
Thus, far from approving the wars that have been blessed by religious leaders, God will shortly execute judgment upon those religions that have murdered in his name. He will do this in fulfillment of the Bible prophecy that says: “With a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” When that gladsome event takes place, God will have “executed judgment upon the great harlot” and “avenged the blood of his slaves at her hand.”—Revelation 18:21; 19:2.
People who are disgusted with all the killing that has gone on in the name of God may wonder if there are Christians who actually live in harmony with the Bible prophecy: “They will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)
Quote Hi david,
Do you follow them?No, but they followed Jesus.
And I think it's a great deal better to look to their example than the examples of the blood thirsty worldly leaders or those who came later and claim to be Christian, but disown that claim by their actions, don't you?Nick, just as the early Christians didn't believe in the trinity (and what does that tell us) the early Christians refused to take part in warefare (and we can learn from that too)
So I ask it again:
Were the early Christians wrong Nick? Or are you?Hi david,
Did Jesus ever teach not to join up with the armed forces?
Did he ever teach to disobey God given authority?we follow him.
Hi david,
Did Jesus ever teach not to join up with the armed forces?
Did he ever teach to disobey God given authority?we follow him.
Would you feed a starving soldier?
Quote Hi david,
Did Jesus ever teach not to join up with the armed forces?The early Christians must have believed so. Nick, there are many principles (as opposed to specific laws) in the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible specifically say not to drop a nuclear bomb on New Zealand. Yet, I feel doing so would contradict many Bible principles.
Did Jesus ever say: “Don't shoot people with a gun”?
Of course not. Gun's weren't invented until not too long ago.Quote
Did he ever teach to disobey God given authority?Nick, I know you're not part of a religion that's banned in several countries, and so perhaps are having difficulty with this. But if God says: “Preach the good news,” and the governement says: “You may not preach,” whom would you listen to Nick? Who?
And when Daniels friends were to follow the law made and bow down to the image, did they?
Think of Daniel in the lion's pit.
Or when king ahaseurus made the decree that all the Jews were to die, was that God's will Nick?ACTS 5:29
“We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”ACTS 4:19
“But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to YOU rather than to God, judge for yourselves.”Quote Would you feed a starving soldier?
That's the thing, I wouldn't ever be in this situation, not going to war. I would be the one starving, because of my refusal to kill (like the early Christians) and it would be a question of whether he would feed me.Hi david,
So, from your moral standpoint, is it a sin to be a soldier?
Are they evil men who are soldiers?
Is it evil to be a member of the armed forces?
Is it not possible to be saved if you are a soldier?
Is it a sin to feed soldiers?
Is it a sin to dress the wounds of wounded soldiers?Hi david,
So there are thought to be other important teachings from Jesus for the church that have not reached us but were known to the early christians. We are not to be in the army is one apparently. Are there any others we need to be aware of?Actively supporting killing is wrong.
Nick, I believe smoking cigarettes if a filthy habit that defiles the body. Now, to decide to make it your business to open up a cigarette stand (and yet not smoke them yourself) still seems wrong, doesn't it?
Quote So, from your moral standpoint
Nick, it's not my “moral standpoint,” but rather the beliefs of the earliest Christians who weren't tainted by gangrenous apostasy and the twisted thinking of the ruler of the world, Satan, as well as the Bible itself that draws me to the conclusion that killing people for the government is wrong.As well, it is a very different thing to be at home and a soldier who is shot and starving stumbles into your house–than to actively decide you want to be a part of the war effort, an effort designed to kill people from another country.
God is not partial Nick. In every nation, the man that fears him is acceptable to him.Quote Is it evil to be a member of the armed forces?
The early Christians seemed to believe so.What did Jesus say?
Quote Hi david,
So there are thought to be other important teachings from Jesus for the church that have not reached us but were known to the early christians. We are not to be in the army is one apparently. Are there any others we need to be aware of?I am showing you what the early Christians believed because you are having trouble interpreting Jesus words about: 'Those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.'
If there was an apostasy (which there was) whom can we trust? We should be much more trusting of the earliest Christians who were in line with Jesus teachings.Quote Is it not possible to be saved if you are a soldier?
Is it a sin to feed soldiers?
Is it a sin to dress the wounds of wounded soldiers?Just out of curiousity, what if that soldier that came to you, starving, bleeding, was from the other side (the “bad, evil other country” side).
Would you feed that soldier, dress his wounds?
To do so would be treason, I believe???
But would you?Nick, I realize we are talking about the “who is my neighbor,” good samaritan parable.
But what that has brought us to is you commiting treason. Who is your neighbor Nick? Only New Zealanders? Only people of your country? Or does it include the wounded soldier who has come to your country to kill you and your neighbors? Because if it does, I think that would be breaking your governments laws. And your whole argument here rests on the fact that you believe you must obey human governments no matter what, even if they disagree with God. So what do you do?Hi david,
The point I make is that it is unwise to make new moral laws for ourselves and others.We are not lawmakers and we only confuse ourselves if we busy ourselves with worldly issues. God is the Lawmaker, and by His Spirit within He is able to rule in us and direct our steps in the way He wants us to walk.
The more we manufacture our own external moral laws the less we are listening to Him and able to obey Him. The more we do so the more our attention is on the world outside us and not on the Spirit within. We become our own gods and make ourselves tinpot gods for others.
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