- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Cubes, you and others have wrote expressions such as:
“I do believe that there are a couple of ways to stand against evil:….if necessary….(War)”
Well what stops you from going into an abortion clinic and shooting the doctor?
Or what prevents you from taking on crime yourself and actively killing wicked people?
I mean, war if a far away thing that doesn't affect a lot of people on this forum, so it's all good and fine to have these noble thoughts of defending the good by killing who YOU consider to be wicked–Because war is so far away, remote. But if “standing against evil” is your aim and are willing to take that on even if that means killing other humans, then why stop at war?Is it because 'the government sponsors war killing,' and so it's ok?
david
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3,4 (NIV)
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”Hi David:
I believe that what I was arguing for is the right for a group or nation to defend itself when attacked. Can you not see the difference?
You are somewhere minding your own business and without cause, another group or nation rises against you. If you are able to escape or bring the situation to a peaceful resolution, fine. Those ought to be the first consideration. If not, you may not be in a position to defend yourself anyway and so may become subdued. But if at all possible, I believe that it is ok to take a stand and that Jesus did not deprive us of the right to do that.
On the other hand, without getting into a debate about authorities that are elected to enforce laws, I would say that many of the people who have abortions are either very young and/or victims themselves in some way. In such a case, there are more effective ways to connect with most to win them over. Most, I am sure, are not thrilled over the idea of aborting their own children and grieve over it, or else for whatever reason, they do not quite perceive the gravity of the situation or recognize the children as real children.
Before I consider harming such a mother, I'd sooner offer myself and have no doubt that some — if not many– would be won over. This is because aborting their children is not their first option but they are usually afraid of something or someone.Not the case with those who seek to control others through aggression.
Anyway, here's something else that Jesus said mentioning war that might shed further light. I see him saying we are to surrender and yield all that we would hold on to for his sake:
Is he saying his disciples are not to have or love their families?
That they should never consider putting up a building?
Or becoming kings or national leaders? and so dealing with the affairs of wars?If that were the case then we should all in the strictest sense abandon the family members listed there whether or not there's a reason to do so.
Luke 14:25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it– 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise
34 “Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.How did the first Christians understand Jesus words and the words of Bible writers?
Did any of the early Christians remain soldiers on becoming Chritians?
Did the Christians of the first and second century become soldiers?
Did the early Christians refuse to engage in military activity even if it meant their own death?“Did John the baptist tell the soldiers to desert”? I don't know. Did John the baptist tell a cook to put more garlic on his food? Maybe he did and maybe he didn't.
But what the Bible and history do record are the actions of the early Christians pertaining to military action. Their resolve was unflinching.The apostasy changed this.
Yes, and if I decide to discuss how Catholicism was engaged in and guilty for bloodshed pouring over the earth and if I mentioned this scripture speaking of the world empire of false religion, (Babylon the Great):
REVELATION 18:24
“Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.””would you say to me: “This belongs in the Catholicism thread.”
The Catholicism thread is entitled: “Catholicism–Is it the way”
And so I point out that Jesus said:
“By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves,” and I point out that Catholics have the habit of sponsoring most wars and hence, have no problem killing each other in different countries.
This is directly related to whether Catholicism is the way, isn't it? I mean, Jesus said that “love among” themselves would be a distinguishing factor of true Christians. Nick, I know you don't like to discuss this subject, because your conscious must trouble you in this area, but it directly relates to that topic as much or more than anything you have said in that thread.david.
t8 has also mentioned warfare of Catholics and Heiscoming has also mentioned the bloodshed they are guilty of.
Clearly, I am not alone in understanding that a big part of being a Christian means you don't slaughter your fellow believer. I would have thought that would have been quite plain.
I certainly don't take a political stance. JW's are completely neutral when it comes to the wars of the world. We are often thrown in jail or persecuted because we refuse to kill others, or support wars. So I do not take a political stance, in that I am not for any country. I am for God's kingdom.
As far as religion, what is wrong with having righteous indignation based on religious beliefs. If the Bible says that you should love your brother. And I believe this is a true teaching, it is my religious belief. And if I say that someone who kills his brother is not following this command, how can you condemn what I say?
Hi Nick Do you 'do what you do and say what you say because you are a Christian'?
Nick, the reason I don't kill people or think as you ('I will let God tell me what to do when the situation arises') is because I feel strongly that God's Word tells us that we should not be wishy washy, or lukewarm. Nick, you aren't even sure if it's ok or not to kill t8
If he were in the U.S. and it went to war with New Zealand for some reason (most likely the beach front property) you would find yourself in a bit of a troubling situation. If t8 is your brother, do you kill your brother? Do you follow the superior authorities, no matter what they say? What if what they say disagrees with God?
Who was it that said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”? Love for your spiritual brother is to be a distinguishing factor among true Christians. Yet, you seem unwilling to say you would not kill t8. Well, how does t8 feel about this?
If man is made in God's image, what does it mean to take a life?Nick, instead of asking why I do what I do, why I take my stance, you would do well to ask why all the early Christians refused to become soldiers, refused to go to war. I would think that would be a more useful question for you to meditate upon.
david
As you said on Aug 20/2006, in the “finding a church” thread:
Hi,
Our weapons are not those the world uses but loving and peaceful ways among our neighbours.Quote (david @ Aug. 28 2006,07:44) Hi Nick Do you 'do what you do and say what you say because you are a Christian'? Nick, the reason I don't kill people or think as you ('I will let God tell me what to do when the situation arises') is because I feel strongly that God's Word tells us that we should not be wishy washy, or lukewarm. Nick, you aren't even sure if it's ok or not to kill t8
If he were in the U.S. and it went to war with New Zealand for some reason (most likely the beach front property) you would find yourself in a bit of a troubling situation. If t8 is your brother, do you kill your brother? Do you follow the superior authorities, no matter what they say? What if what they say disagrees with God?
Who was it that said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”? Love for your spiritual brother is to be a distinguishing factor among true Christians. Yet, you seem unwilling to say you would not kill t8. Well, how does t8 feel about this?
If man is made in God's image, what does it mean to take a life?Nick, instead of asking why I do what I do, why I take my stance, you would do well to ask why all the early Christians refused to become soldiers, refused to go to war. I would think that would be a more useful question for you to meditate upon.
david
Hi david,
There are more ways to kill men than by the sword.
Teaching falsely can lead men to suffer the second death.
For those who do the millstone is their reward.Yes, and I believe that those who teach that killing for the governement is a thing that is good and fine for those who follow Christ, are misleading themselves and others.
I wonder what t8 feels about your silence to the question of whether or not you would kill this 'brother' of yours if he lived in another country and your government went to war with his country.
He must feel, less close to you, at the very least.
I find very little love in your silence to this question.Hi david,
You are so concerned with matters of the world that the more vital matters of obedience to God seem to escape you. JW's teach falsehoods and their personal futures are at risk because of it so worrying about wars seems less important than eternity does it not?t8, I would watch my back.
To Nick, yes, mankinds greatest need is spiritual. Mankind is starving, spiritually. Yet, should I drink in your words if they are in fact poison? If you have not mastered the simple idea of love, and are unsure whether you would or wouldn't kill your so called brother, t8, and can't make a definitive statement on it, then why should I believe that anything you say is true?
So yes, eternity is important. But living in the now is what will get you there Nick. And living in the now is what may or may not get t8 killed by your hand.
I just find it incredible that you cannot see this.t8, without question, you will never find a JW going to war with your country. You will never find a JW throwing a grenade into your house or the one who pushes the button and wipes out your city.
Part of the reason it is unthinkable to go to war, is that there is a 'worldwide association of brothers.' They live in all countries. They are truly united in love. They would never kill one another.As for Nick, he hasn't decided yet. I still can't believe what you're saying and what you refuse to say.
Hi david,
Is it not remarkable that Jesus,
who lived when violence and oppression was the norm,
had so little to say on the matters that you concentrate on?
Does that not seem that your mission is rather at a tangent to his?
Should we follow you rather than the Master?I only wish that you were in line with Jesus' words:
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”” (John 13:35)Sadly, you do not seem to be. So, are you one of Jesus' followers? If someone doesn't have love among their fellow believers, they aren't really following Christ, are they? So, if someone decides that killing their fellow believers is God's will, they have been mislead. Satan is the ruler of the world and is misleading many.
The fact that you cannot answer my simple question seems to indicate that you too have somehow been mislead–maybe through nationalistic propaganda, or the worldly view of life, or whatever.Jesus' statement is a simple one.
Murdering someone for your government is not an act of love.So?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
