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A friend of mine has an uncle in the Aus- SaS- So He likes to Justify his uncles position.
This belief that its OK to kill for self defense continually over the years in our friendship comes up- and I remind him of the scriptures.
And he changes his mind back to at least not thinking that he will kill for self defense. Jesus- And his disciples and all true believers were treated shamfully and led as lambs to the slaughter- They did not retaliate with violence!! That is for a time coming – GoDs judgment.
A line that I hear in defense of Killing in defense, or violent risistance to an opressor is that In the old testiment, GoD's people Killed!!
Jesus was sent fullfilling the prophecies, and gave the new covernent.
Jesus addresses the old testiment Killings-
Matthew 5
An Eye for an Eye
38″You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[7] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43″You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[8] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[9] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Killing is wrong, but what about protecting your wife and family? Aren't a wedding vow a covenant with God also?….. hmm ……….a tib of a thought
What about GoD's own Son??? What about the disciples!!! What about theyre wives that were thrown in prison???
Jesus said to Peter- “Put that down!!, those who live by the sword Die by the sword!!”
This was an act of Peter in self defense, Not aggression, Yet Jesus rebuked him for using it.
Jesus Told us to love our enemies, Your enemies are those who rape your family- torchour your children – These are the ones who Jesus said to lend without expecting repayment to. 'Give to the one who asks you' and 'Do not resist an evil Man'
This is the hardcore – amazing truth of who Jesus was and is, and the future for those who truely believe.
Because, our hope is not on earthly things but heavenly things. Search out the scriptures.
We were appointed not only to believe, but also to suffer.
Entrusting ourselves to Him who Judges Justly.
Very well stated , Ringo. If God be for us Who could be against us. Where is our faith in times of trouble. The Lord is our stay and our strength. Blessed is the peacemaker for they shall be called the children of God. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven : for so they persecuted the prophets which were before you.
…..TYA tough question but I believe John the baptist had an answer
LUKE 3:14
And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.Quote (ringo111 @ May 19 2004,05:14) Matthew 5 An Eye for an Eye
38″You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[7] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Ringo111,
Please give me $10,000.I'm not trying to be smart but I just want to point out that the same verse you use to say we shouldn't defend ourselves also commands you to send me that money.
I own a business and am currently being sued by another company, should I hand them the keys and go home?
You can't pick and choose which verses to keep and if you take the one literally you must take the other also.
I believe that Jesus did this as a way of showing to those who trusted in their adherence to the Law what is truely required if one wishes to fully observe the Law and trust in God (and how far beyond our grasp it is).
I hope I did not offend you in the way I presented this.
Seeking Truth, that post that you replied to, Ringo's is 2 years old. I don't believe he will respond to you. So, you may not get your money.
While I understand where you're coming from, I would like to add.
“whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.”
Jesus was teaching that a Christian does not need to pay back blow for blow. He was inculcating the principle of avoiding quarrels by not replying or reacting in kind. A slap on the cheek is not intended to injure physically but only to insult or to provoke into a fight. Jesus did not say that if someone strikes a Christian on the jaw, he should get up off the floor and hold the other side of his face for a target.
What Jesus was saying was that if anyone tried to provoke a Christian into a fight or argument by either slapping him with an open hand or stinging him with insulting words, it would be wrong to retaliate.Anciently, it was customary for people to give a garment in pledge to guarantee payment of a debt. (Job 22:6) If a debtor was unable to pay, a court could award that garment to the creditor. (Prov. 13:13; 27:13) However, God’s law stated that a “mantle” (outer garment) given in pledge could not be retained overnight, since the debtor might need it as a covering for sleeping.—Ex. 22:26, 27; Deut. 24:12, 13.
Jesus counseled his followers to give up freely the “inner garment” that an adversary at law might seek; and they should do this simply “if a person wants to go to court,” before court proceedings actually began. Moreover, they could go twice as far by letting the “outer garment also go to him,” though the law of God did not demand such a thing.
In agreement with this counsel, the apostle Paul wrote to Christians at Corinth: “Really, then, it means altogether a defeat for you that you are having lawsuits with one another. Why do you not rather let yourselves be wronged? Why do you not rather let yourselves be defrauded?” (1 Cor. 6:7) Yes, they should have been willing to suffer personal loss rather than to see the congregation’s reputation hurt publicly by some controversy at court.
Hi david,
Thanks.
Of course all moral advice is useless unless one has been saved.
Good behaviour saves nobody.
That is why Christ said
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God..”So if you were younger, and conscripted or drafted, would you go Nick?
Quote Of course all moral advice is useless unless one has been saved.
I'm not sure why you're telling me this. Doesn't the Bible contain “moral advice”? Surely, not “all” moral advice is “useless.”Anyway, when called on to go to war, what would you do?
Hi david,
If I pray daily to be in the will of my Father then whatever situation he allows me to face he will also then give me the wisdom to deal with. I cannot walk in the theoretical future but only here today. I do not follow a set of black and white church appointed rules because they might make me blind and deaf to the will of God.Do you?
So you're not sure if the “will of God” is for you to kill people for your country, Nick?
You know, this forum is an interesting thing. It's made up of people of different countries. Yet, you may consider some on it to be your “brothers.” Think of one of them who you consider to be born again, and a true follower and on the right path.
Now if that person's country decided it didn't like you're country for whatever reason, (I know, who doesn't love NZ?) and went to war with it, would you and that person stand on opposite sides? You with your New Zealand governement, gun in hand, them with their governement, gun in hand?
Would you shoot your brother? Do you imagine that is the will of God?
I would have hoped your allegience would have been to God's Kingdom.Quote If I pray daily to be in the will of my Father then whatever situation he allows me to face he will also then give me the wisdom to deal with. “Even though YOU make many prayers, I am not listening; with bloodshed YOUR very hands have become filled.” (Isaiah)
God doesn't listen to the prayers of everyone. I wonder if killing your brother or supporting a war that would do so is something that would cause Jehovah not to listen.david
Hi david,
Do you recognise the authority of the Government?
Is it ever not evil to kill?
Can a man not serve God in the armed forces?Quote Do you recognise the authority of the Government?
I recognize the authority of the Governments that has been given them BY GOD. Any authority they have is because God allows it. Jehovah God is the ultimate authority Nick–do you recognize that?
So if these two authorities disagree, whom do you choose to disregard Nick?Rom. 13:1, 5-7: “Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities [governmental rulers], for there is no authority except by God . . . There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. . . . Render to all their dues, to him who calls for the tax, the tax; to him who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to him who calls for fear, such fear; to him who calls for honor, such honor.” (No government could exist without God’s permission. Regardless of the conduct of individual officials, true Christians have shown them respect because of the office they occupied. For example, regardless of the use that governments have made of tax money, worshipers of Jehovah have made honest payment of their taxes in return for those services from which everyone could benefit.)
However, notice this scripture:
Acts 5:28, 29: “[A spokesman for the Jewish high court] said: ‘We positively ordered you [the apostles] not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name [of Jesus Christ], and yet, look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.’ In answer Peter and the other apostles said: ‘We must obey God as ruler rather than men.’”
WHAT DO YOU THINK NICK,
When there is a direct conflict between the commands of human rulers and the requirements of God, should not true Christians imitate the example of the apostles by putting obedience to God first?Hi david,
Have you looked at other verse such as 1 Peter 2.13f?
“Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as one in authority or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men”Was the religious leadership of the Jews a human institution?
Is it ever not evil to kill?
Can a man not serve God within the armed forces?Quote Was it wrong for Israel to fight for the land that the bible says is theirs?
Kenrch, if you march around a city 7 days and it falls, I will believe that God is fighting with you.Quote Amen,
They killed men, women and children in the days of Joshua under God's instructions.
So under whose instructions do men today kill? Which war today was under God's instructions?I don't think the early Christians were wrong. I think the thinking became twisted after the early Christians on this subject–as with so many other subjects.
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