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Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,17:36) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 14 2010,12:43) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 13 2010,12:04) So you both agree with each other. You dont think anything could of created what you see and that it all just happened to happen
ohh-kayIf you were to set up a vegie garden, and go away
you should really also set up a watering system on a timer cause otherwise its dead.If you were an illegal marujuana grower in NZ you would also know the importance of setting it up right.
Most- to avoid getting caught, use a darkened room or building, and they need to set up artificial light, temperature, watering system and so on.If I go away the neighbour feeds my cat.I make sure I leave enough food and that its good food so he wont get sick.
Theres God and science explained in my unscientific mind, everything has been set up perfectly for us.
What Man does with that is another story.
Enough Nuclear weapons to destroy the whole planet three times over is enough for me to get.
Why do you use domesticated examples? Plants and animals survive on their own when they are not of the domesticated variety. That is why you don't feed the bears at a park because then they become dependent on being fed as opposed to finding food for themselves.
Kejonn if I used a domestic example that doesnt matter I was talking about the whole world in general, but using just a small example of how everything has been set up so perfectly.
The right amount of sunshine, the correct ammount of oxygen, light, water, rain, its too perfect to have 'just happened'How can you not believe in a creator?
Its like if I said “oh I was walking down the road today and there was this big bang and suddenly there was a washing machine there!”
It just doesnt happen! Theres always a designer and a maker of everything.
Once again, Clear and brilliant!Due to the Atheism Disease it will all be disregarded
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 14 2010,16:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 13 2010,22:57) These laws are immaterail, they cannot be touched so they are spiritual absolutes.
Spiritual absolutes? Will you be chanting some voodoo curse next?
Are there Absolutes or not? Laws are not physical are they?Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,17:36) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 14 2010,12:43) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 13 2010,12:04) So you both agree with each other. You dont think anything could of created what you see and that it all just happened to happen
ohh-kayIf you were to set up a vegie garden, and go away
you should really also set up a watering system on a timer cause otherwise its dead.If you were an illegal marujuana grower in NZ you would also know the importance of setting it up right.
Most- to avoid getting caught, use a darkened room or building, and they need to set up artificial light, temperature, watering system and so on.If I go away the neighbour feeds my cat.I make sure I leave enough food and that its good food so he wont get sick.
Theres God and science explained in my unscientific mind, everything has been set up perfectly for us.
What Man does with that is another story.
Enough Nuclear weapons to destroy the whole planet three times over is enough for me to get.
Why do you use domesticated examples? Plants and animals survive on their own when they are not of the domesticated variety. That is why you don't feed the bears at a park because then they become dependent on being fed as opposed to finding food for themselves.
Kejonn if I used a domestic example that doesnt matter I was talking about the whole world in general, but using just a small example of how everything has been set up so perfectly.
The right amount of sunshine, the correct ammount of oxygen, light, water, rain, its too perfect to have 'just happened'How can you not believe in a creator?
Its like if I said “oh I was walking down the road today and there was this big bang and suddenly there was a washing machine there!”
It just doesnt happen! Theres always a designer and a maker of everything.
Did you understand the significance of this? It is the answer to your Goldilocks Zone proposition:“Being surprised at the fact that the universe is fine tuned
for life is akin to a puddle being surprised at how well it
fits its hole”
– Douglas AdamsStuart
Quote How can you not believe in a creator?
Its like if I said “oh I was walking down the road today and there was this big bang and suddenly there was a washing machine there!”
It just doesnt happen! Theres always a designer and a maker of everything.
A washing machine is an engineered object. We know how it came into existence, and there is evidence that there was design every step of the way.It is a logical fallacy to claim that because washing machines are designed, then so is the universe. We know a great deal about how the universe came into being and there is no evidence anywhere for design at all.
Stuart
Stu,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Stuart,Quote A washing machine is an engineered object. We know how it came into existence, and there is evidence that there was design every step of the way. What makes you think that design every step of the way ends with manmade things?
Quote It is a logical fallacy to claim that because washing machines are designed, then so is the universe. We know a great deal about how the universe came into being and there is no evidence anywhere for design at all. The evidence exists in what you see and feel, if you can go beyond our own understanding.
Do you think an Ant can understand what exactly we are? Or what they walk around in (eg our houses)
By the way im not trying to convert you to any religeon!; but only to maybe try to see things from a different point of view to at least admit there could be a creator,
When at first I said 'do I make myself crystall clear' I just thought that sounded good thats all! When I said you need to repent and believe its only because theres alot of truth in that. By becoming lower than our own knowledge often helps us to trust there is something up there higher than just us.
karmarie
Quote What makes you think that design every step of the way ends with manmade things?
I don’t think that. There are other species that design things too. The point is that we knew already that your object of choice was a designed one. It is wrong to claim that the universe is designed because a washing machine is.Quote The evidence exists in what you see and feel, if you can go beyond our own understanding.
Isn’t that complete nonsense? You are claiming that you can go beyond your own understanding. In what sense can you do that? In the sense of imagining things that you can’t imagine?Quote Do you think an Ant can understand what exactly we are? Or what they walk around in (eg our houses)
No. So what?Quote By the way im not trying to convert you to any religeon!; but only to maybe try to see things from a different point of view to at least admit there could be a creator,
I have already said elsewhere here that there could be a creator. I have also estimated the probability of the existence of such a thing based on the evidence we have (much less than 0.000000000000001% was my figure). Of course that creator could be the Flying Spaghetti Monster (bhna). Since you are not trying to convert me I assume you are happy that I am considering that creator, and not yours.Quote When at first I said 'do I make myself crystall clear' I just thought that sounded good thats all! When I said you need to repent and believe its only because theres alot of truth in that. By becoming lower than our own knowledge often helps us to trust there is something up there higher than just us.
I don’t need to repent from anything! Exactly what are you accusing me of?
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,02:33) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 14 2010,16:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 13 2010,22:57) These laws are immaterail, they cannot be touched so they are spiritual absolutes.
Spiritual absolutes? Will you be chanting some voodoo curse next?
Are there Absolutes or not? Laws are not physical are they?
No, scientific laws explain phenomena. From http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htmA law generalizes a body of observations. At the time it is made, no exceptions have been found to a law. Scientific laws explain things, but they do not describe them. One way to tell a law and a theory apart is to ask if the description gives you a means to explain 'why'.
Example: Consider Newton's Law of Gravity. Newton could use this law to predict the behavior of a dropped object, but he couldn't explain why it happened.
As you can see, there is no 'proof' or absolute 'truth' in science. The closest we get are facts, which are indisputable observations. Note, however, if you define proof as arriving at a logical conclusion, based on the evidence, then there is 'proof' in science. I work under the definition that to prove something implies it can never be wrong, which is different. If you're asked to define hypothesis, theory, and law, keep in mind the definitions of proof and of these words can vary slightly depending on the scientific discipline. What is important is to realize they don't all mean the same thing and cannot be used interchangeably.
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,00:36) Kejonn if I used a domestic example that doesnt matter I was talking about the whole world in general, but using just a small example of how everything has been set up so perfectly. It matters greatly. Domesticated animals and plants need extra care because they have been modified from wild versions found in nature that grow and thrive adequately without human intervention. Do forests need fertilizer? Do wolves need Alpo?
Quote The right amount of sunshine, the correct ammount of oxygen, light, water, rain, its too perfect to have 'just happened' Or everything has evolved and thus adapted to our environment. Remember, science says this planet has been around for billions of years. One-celled organisms were around as long as 3 billion years ago.
Not 6000 years, billions.
Quote How can you not believe in a creator? Because its just not necessary. I could try to believe, but what does it matter if I did? It would not benefit me in any way.
Quote Its like if I said “oh I was walking down the road today and there was this big bang and suddenly there was a washing machine there!”
It just doesnt happen! Theres always a designer and a maker of everything.
Remember, billions of years, not thousands. Does an infant human walk on his first day out of the womb?You assert that there is always a designer, but you cannot provide evidence of one beyond wanting to believe because you cannot fathom otherwise. You have simply given up and taken the easy route by accepting a god of the gaps.
Why did your god make roaches? Fleas? Gnats? Blind albino fish that inhabit the depths of the sea?
Why do humans have an appendix? A tailbone? Wisdom teeth? Nipples on males? The ability to puff up our fur without the accompanying fur (goosebumps)? Body hair? A male uterus?
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 14 2010,21:46) I don’t need to repent from anything! Exactly what are you accusing me of?
Im not accusing you of anything, it just comes from one of the sayings of JesusMatthew 3;2- Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.-
Luke 21;10- Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
…“There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”kejonn,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Quote You assert that there is always a designer, but you cannot provide evidence of one beyond wanting to believe because you cannot fathom otherwise. You have simply given up and taken the easy route by accepting a god of the gaps. It just makes the most sense.
Quote Why did your god make roaches? Fleas? Gnats? Blind albino fish that inhabit the depths of the sea? Food for other animals, part of the food chain;
They also clean up carcasses, green litter, and so on.
Everything in this world is nessesary.Quote Why do humans have an appendix? A tailbone? Wisdom teeth? Nipples on males? The ability to puff up our fur without the accompanying fur (goosebumps)? Body hair? A male uterus? I have no idea! Might look into it
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,14:10) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 15 2010,00:05) Quote You assert that there is always a designer, but you cannot provide evidence of one beyond wanting to believe because you cannot fathom otherwise. You have simply given up and taken the easy route by accepting a god of the gaps. It just makes the most sense.
Only to the one who wants it to be so, or gives in before investigating.
Quote Quote Why did your god make roaches? Fleas? Gnats? Blind albino fish that inhabit the depths of the sea? Food for other animals, part of the food chain;
They also clean up carcasses, green litter, and so on.
Everything in this world is nessesary.I do not know of too many creatures that eat roaches or fleas. You?
Quote Quote Why do humans have an appendix? A tailbone? Wisdom teeth? Nipples on males? The ability to puff up our fur without the accompanying fur (goosebumps)? Body hair? A male uterus? I have no idea! Might look into it
Good. Then you will soon realize that these body parts are left over from prior evolutionary processes. A designer would not have left in so many useless body parts, some of which are actually a nuisance to have (tail bone, appendix, wisdom teeth).Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,20:39) Stu,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Stuart,Quote A washing machine is an engineered object. We know how it came into existence, and there is evidence that there was design every step of the way. What makes you think that design every step of the way ends with manmade things?
Quote It is a logical fallacy to claim that because washing machines are designed, then so is the universe. We know a great deal about how the universe came into being and there is no evidence anywhere for design at all. The evidence exists in what you see and feel, if you can go beyond our own understanding.
Do you think an Ant can understand what exactly we are? Or what they walk around in (eg our houses)
Wow! Love the ant in the house thing.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 15 2010,00:05) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,00:36) Kejonn if I used a domestic example that doesnt matter I was talking about the whole world in general, but using just a small example of how everything has been set up so perfectly. It matters greatly. Domesticated animals and plants need extra care because they have been modified from wild versions found in nature that grow and thrive adequately without human intervention. Do forests need fertilizer? Do wolves need Alpo?
Quote The right amount of sunshine, the correct ammount of oxygen, light, water, rain, its too perfect to have 'just happened' Or everything has evolved and thus adapted to our environment. Remember, science says this planet has been around for billions of years. One-celled organisms were around as long as 3 billion years ago.
Not 6000 years, billions.
Quote How can you not believe in a creator? Because its just not necessary. I could try to believe, but what does it matter if I did? It would not benefit me in any way.
Quote Its like if I said “oh I was walking down the road today and there was this big bang and suddenly there was a washing machine there!”
It just doesnt happen! Theres always a designer and a maker of everything.
Remember, billions of years, not thousands. Does an infant human walk on his first day out of the womb?You assert that there is always a designer, but you cannot provide evidence of one beyond wanting to believe because you cannot fathom otherwise. You have simply given up and taken the easy route by accepting a god of the gaps.
Why did your god make roaches? Fleas? Gnats? Blind albino fish that inhabit the depths of the sea?
Why do humans have an appendix? A tailbone? Wisdom teeth? Nipples on males? The ability to puff up our fur without the accompanying fur (goosebumps)? Body hair? A male uterus?
Quote Does an infant human walk on his first day out of the womb? Yes, good point a DNA design by God causes the infant to grow a certain way.
Kejonn,
Where does a DNA blueprint come from and why does it stay stable?
Quote Why do humans have an appendix? A tailbone? Wisdom teeth? Nipples on males? The ability to puff up our fur without the accompanying fur (goosebumps)? Body hair? A male uterus? I can tell you about all those things but will it matter? No! You have the Atheists Disease you will either simply dismiss what I tell you or even if you don't you will simply dismiss any connection to God existing.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,14:56) Wow! Love the ant in the house thing.
I love these inaccurate analogies. An ant can see us, smell us, and bite us. We cannot see, hear, smell, or otherwise sense any gods outside of the imagination.Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 15 2010,07:17) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,14:10) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 15 2010,00:05) Quote You assert that there is always a designer, but you cannot provide evidence of one beyond wanting to believe because you cannot fathom otherwise. You have simply given up and taken the easy route by accepting a god of the gaps. It just makes the most sense.
Only to the one who wants it to be so, or gives in before investigating.
Quote Quote Why did your god make roaches? Fleas? Gnats? Blind albino fish that inhabit the depths of the sea? Food for other animals, part of the food chain;
They also clean up carcasses, green litter, and so on.
Everything in this world is nessesary.I do not know of too many creatures that eat roaches or fleas. You?
Quote Quote Why do humans have an appendix? A tailbone? Wisdom teeth? Nipples on males? The ability to puff up our fur without the accompanying fur (goosebumps)? Body hair? A male uterus? I have no idea! Might look into it
Good. Then you will soon realize that these body parts are left over from prior evolutionary processes. A designer would not have left in so many useless body parts, some of which are actually a nuisance to have (tail bone, appendix, wisdom teeth).
Lizards, chickens ,Ants, Spiders, Frogs all eat roachesDo you see how ignorant you are about some of the most basic things yet you try to discredit the Greatest of all i.e. GOD
By the way, ants and beetles eat fleas.
So much for your vast knowledge of the animal kingdom.
By the way Kejonn God is real too.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 15 2010,07:17) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,14:10) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 15 2010,00:05) Quote You assert that there is always a designer, but you cannot provide evidence of one beyond wanting to believe because you cannot fathom otherwise. You have simply given up and taken the easy route by accepting a god of the gaps. It just makes the most sense.
Only to the one who wants it to be so, or gives in before investigating.
Quote Quote Why did your god make roaches? Fleas? Gnats? Blind albino fish that inhabit the depths of the sea? Food for other animals, part of the food chain;
They also clean up carcasses, green litter, and so on.
Everything in this world is nessesary.I do not know of too many creatures that eat roaches or fleas. You?
Quote Quote Why do humans have an appendix? A tailbone? Wisdom teeth? Nipples on males? The ability to puff up our fur without the accompanying fur (goosebumps)? Body hair? A male uterus? I have no idea! Might look into it
Good. Then you will soon realize that these body parts are left over from prior evolutionary processes. A designer would not have left in so many useless body parts, some of which are actually a nuisance to have (tail bone, appendix, wisdom teeth).
The appendix has been shown to be part of the lymph system. Sorry you lose the prize again.The coccygeus muscle helps to support the posterior organs of the pelvic floor, especially during blocked forced expiration, as in elimination. Sorry you lose another prize.
Without the coccyx and its attached muscle system, humans would need a radically different support system for their internal organs which would require numerous design changes in the human posterior Concerning the coccyx and its importance, Allford concluded that:
“The posterior surfaces [of the coccyx] serve as attachments for the gluteus maximus muscle and the sphincter and externus muscles. The gluteus maximus muscle is essential for defecation and labor during childbirth. The sphincter ani externus muscle is needed to keep the anal canal and orifice closed. These are obviously very important functions. The interior surfaces of the coccygeal vertebrae also serve as important attachments for muscles that aid in the containment of feces within the rectum . . . [as well as control of] defecation, and the expulsion of the fetus during labor. For these important reasons, the coccyx can never be classified as a rudimentary or vestigial rudiment of our ancestors. Aliford (1978:42)
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/tailbone.htmlOf course I know your mind went blank while reading this because of the Atheists Disease
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 14 2010,21:46) karmarie Quote What makes you think that design every step of the way ends with manmade things?
I don’t think that. There are other species that design things too. The point is that we knew already that your object of choice was a designed one. It is wrong to claim that the universe is designed because a washing machine is.Stuart
Hi Stuart,If you see a bird's nest, with no bird around, how can Science prove or dis-prove it was designed?
What test can you do to the nest to prove the bird made it?How can Science PROVE the Creation of the “Universe”; except by it's order!
Your belief in order without a maker is Weak indeed!A little more interesting for you; Stuart?
Ed J
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 15 2010,08:04) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,14:56) Wow! Love the ant in the house thing.
I love these inaccurate analogies. An ant can see us, smell us, and bite us. We cannot see, hear, smell, or otherwise sense any gods outside of the imagination.
Even though we see a cockroach and just want to kill it, examined under a microscope – its actually quite amazing- could we create something like that?
All we have come up with is kids toys/robots with batteries which serve no purpose and eventually break. In other words a whole lot of junk.Ants see us, smell us and bite us maybe true but can they understand us or are we just to them a big dangerous happening which they have no understanding of- and only instictivly know to run or bite. If you shake the jam jar they will run, we run from an earthquake.
much like we see the heavens and have really no idea – though we think we do- but when does heaven end and what is out there. Beyond what we can see.
We are just a dot in the galaxy. Yet we think were big. Just like the ant does.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,15:03) Yes, good point a DNA design by God causes the infant to grow a certain way. Other animals walk on their first day out of the womb. Survival of the species makes this a necessity. Humans do not appear to need that, or it has been phased out due to nurture and care over the years.
Quote Kejonn, Where does a DNA blueprint come from and why does it stay stable?
DNA is not a “blueprint”. So your question is not valid.
Quote Quote Why do humans have an appendix? A tailbone? Wisdom teeth? Nipples on males? The ability to puff up our fur without the accompanying fur (goosebumps)? Body hair? A male uterus? I can tell you about all those things but will it matter? No! You have the Atheists Disease you will either simply dismiss what I tell you or even if you don't you will simply dismiss any connection to God existing.
I see, you won't tell me because I won't believe, eh? Or will it be because you give some outlandish explanation that only the gullible will fall for?
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