Christians and muslims believe the same thing

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,16:05)

Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2011,06:39) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,01:46) Quote (terraricca @ July 20 2011,17:56) stu what is your take on;love ( not romantic ) mercy,compassion,understanding,goodness,fidelity,honesty,truthful,being good,helpful,ect,,,,,, Pierre Like all those other things they are based in genetics.  There is a survival and reproductive benefit for genes that can make their carriers behave in those ways, so those genes have become more prevalent.  Of course it is complicated, and the individual's environment allows or limits the expression of those genetically-motivated qualities. Stuart stu so there is in your environment any place of guilt ? because it is Genetic right? and also external (society)influences ?so there again no guilt ,but only the power of influence of the powerful,(dominant men) right? Pierre There very obviously is such a thing as guilt, which is part of your conscience, already included in genetics+environment.   The Catholic church famously exploits guilt, and I think that is a part of our environment we could have done without. Stuart

stu

guilt is not genetic;it is related to your environment and the logic of common sense ,what in it self is related to knowledge is it not ?

(never mind religion)

Pierre

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2011,09:55)

stu guilt is not genetic;it is related to your environment and the logic of common sense ,what in it self is related to knowledge is it not ? (never mind religion) Pierre

Isn't guilt the emotion that results from the difference between what you think you should be doing and what you are doing? It is really just a byproduct of having a conscience. If you can explain the conscience through genetics and environment, then guilt is already explained.

Stuart

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,19:14)

Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2011,09:55) stu guilt is not genetic;it is related to your environment and the logic of common sense ,what in it self is related to knowledge is it not ? (never mind religion) Pierre Isn't guilt the emotion that results from the difference between what you think you should be doing and what you are doing?  It is really just a byproduct of having a conscience.  If you can explain the conscience through genetics and environment, then guilt is already explained. Stuart

stu

sorry I just see that it was guilty not guilt

so answer but read guilty

Pierre

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2011,13:20)

Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,19:14) Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2011,09:55) stu guilt is not genetic;it is related to your environment and the logic of common sense ,what in it self is related to knowledge is it not ? (never mind religion) Pierre Isn't guilt the emotion that results from the difference between what you think you should be doing and what you are doing?  It is really just a byproduct of having a conscience.  If you can explain the conscience through genetics and environment, then guilt is already explained. Stuart stu sorry I just see that it was guilty not guilt so answer but read guilty Pierre

I'm not sure I can see much difference.

There's guilty, the adjective that describes the feeling of guilt that we already discussed, and there's guilty, the adjective that might describe a person convicted of an offense by a court. Laws and courts could be described as extended phenotypes, they are the product of the workings of our genes. The genes make the brain in a particular way that propels us to organise ourselves by making rules for conduct and enforcing them.

Did you have a third sense of the word guilty in mind?

Stuart

[terraricca]

stu

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The genes make the brain in a particular way that propels us to organise ourselves by making rules for conduct and enforcing them.

what i try to mention is that since according to you ,men is the product of evolution so that it is his genes or the enviroment that is guilty of what men does,and that men born in unfair areas of the globe are victimes of all others,

and that in developped countries where it is easy living ,the poor and the mis handled are victims of the abuse of all others

the evolution society of the animal men is still primitif ,because the rules have hardly change since the beginning of his errection on two legs,

it is not only survival of the fitest but the survival of the wickiest ,single preservation againt all others,

there is so no way of a good end to this race of apes is it ?

Pierre

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2011,15:23)

stu Quote The genes make the brain in a particular way that propels us to organise ourselves by making rules for conduct and enforcing them. what i try to mention is that since according to you ,men is the product of evolution so that it is his genes or the enviroment that is guilty of what men does,and that men born in unfair areas of the globe are victimes of all others, and that in developped countries where it is easy living ,the poor and the mis handled are victims of the abuse of all others the evolution society of the animal men is still primitif ,because the rules have hardly change since the beginning of his errection on two legs, it is not only survival of the fitest but the survival of the wickiest ,single preservation againt all others, there is so no way of a good end to this race of apes is it ? Pierre

It is not just according to me, it is a proven fact that humans are the product of evolution. My opinion makes no difference.

How can the environment or genes be “guilty”? The same genes and environment that collude to make us believe there are things to be guilty about are the same genes and environment that give rise to the conscience of which feelings of guilt are a part. You can't have one without the other.

Evolution by natural selection is the explanation for how we came to be. It is not the philosophy by which we live. “Survival of the fittest” does not imply killing at all, it just means you are fittest in that environment for passing on your genes, which will therefore become more common in the gene pool. And I disagree that it necessitates survival of the most wicked, it is survival of those best at surviving, and reproduction of those best at successfully reproducing.

Like chimpanzees, we are a highly competitive species. We have a keen sense of justice, but as you suggest we are also happy to exploit one another for advantage. Natural selection is essentially done by changes in the environment. When we were less numerous, living tribally, and running into other tribes was rare, these instincts were essential adaptations. Evolution is not keeping up with the rapid change we have made in the last few hundred years to a high population, global tribe.

Those living in the West have certainly benefited from historical exploitation of others through European colonisation, and through slavery. While it might not be completely gone, slavery is no longer accepted in most countries, and we now have a court of human rights with power to punish those that exploit in violent or demeaning ways.

Of course we still exploit workers in low-wage economies. What you could do to help this whole situation, as could I, is to not drive a car, and dramatically decrease energy and resource use to a level that would be sustainable if the whole world population followed the same pattern of consumption. A significantly vegetarian diet would be part of that.

So, I don't know if there is a good end to this species of great ape. It depends what concerns you. I like to stay optimistic. One reason I am opposed to religions, especially the abrahamic ones, is that they stifle development of humanity away from the things you suggest are bad. Submission to a tribal leader that threatened you with an Invisible Enforcer was probably an important survival mechanism in that tribal situation. In the global tribe we have today though, it is really dangerous.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,19:16)

It is not just according to me, it is a proven fact that humans are the product of evolution.   Stuart

Hi Stuart,

You have yet to prove your belief in an imaginary process with unambiguous evidence.
I would be willing to look at any evidence you POST!   …even though you stopped looking at mine. (Link)

Your friend
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Reason for edit: Added link

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,19:16)

“Survival of the fittest” does not imply killing at all

Hi Stuart,

Tell that to the Zebra with the lion clutching his throat.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

stu

first;it not proven ,it is only a understanding of what could be ,or seems like,a possibility

the reason is that we do not see any evolution going on ,but we see many changes in our human and animals that are inflicted with many chemicals and rays and what not ,our game in genetics does not bring safety to no one alive ,and how further we will go how more we will destroy,so I think this basic behavior of human is proof that they are only on earth for a small and limited time,if not so they would be already destroyed,

humans are the only specie that destroy there own home,

the similarities to a genetic pattern between all living creatures is because as the bible says all have been made from the same source the earth.

now if some men want to call them self apes that s fine with me some have given worse names,but coming or descending from apes I do not think so,

it take more than a ape to make a man,man is built like no other ,he has all his features in the right place ,he can do all by himself what all other animal can only do by acting one or two of his actions,there is no other so versatile a real leader if he would use wisdom and understanding,

but religion as defend him to use those ,

I do understand that man have not create anything just modify thing and learn to concentrate them,

you say that the environment is 55% of influence well this must have been good years those last two million years kill,kill,kill,

to eat,to cloth ,to protect,ape did the same road at the same time and they have not change a bit,still cant talk,still did not make a house,still did not made a city,still swings from trees ,so did not made transportation,did not learn to write,still climb up the trees wen danger is around,ect.

so it appears that only men has acquired intelligence to a limitless degree ,but is struck by his desires of greed ,
and so he is the only one in the entire earth to be like that,

all approaches to make peace on earth as been tried ,politician ,religion,armament ,fear, none have succeeded,

why ?it is not the desire of refusing to have it ,or is it ?

you see Stuart,if man would be retarded as an ape your evolution theory could stick,but to me it is a insult to my intelligence of cause I have only a IQ of 130 this is not the best but is many times better than any ape ,

a story is only true or could be true when all the little figures mach ,and evolution only works in millions of years,
for instance ;competitive behavior in men is not by nature ,but is triggered ,or willfully chosen,and is kept alive if not feed by others for their own interest,

now,you do not believe in religion so hem I but I believe in proper behavior ,and understandable behavior ,and the use of intelligent principles,;;like do not jump from a bridge or a plane unless you have a parachute,do not cut off your harm it hurts ,

work for a living ,do not steal,do not kill ect………….

the misery in the world should not be there,a child that is hungry should not exist,wars should not exist,all can and are preventable ,

only men can think to prevent this no animal can do that.

I have been in construction for 50 years at all level of management ,and as a trades man,I am also a safety officer ,and many years back all big project had there casualty sometime 2 or 4 or more,but after ten years of working diligently on the big projects sites like oil refinery ,and paper mills ,bridges we now have ZERO casualties on 90% of the projects and keep improving ,because it is PREVENTABLE,

this is only possible because we are NOT animals but the best there is on earth, HUMAN,

Pierre

[Stu]

terraricca

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first;it not proven ,it is only a understanding of what could be ,or seems like,a possibility

No, I am really sorry, but you are just wrong. It is as proven as anything is. People who deny evolution are idiots living in a fantasy world.

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the reason is that we do not see any evolution going on ,

So you paid no attention to the many examples of evolution that we have observed within the last 100 years or so which I listed for you.

Quote

humans are the only specie that destroy there own home,

Bacteria do that too. Fungi eat their own homes. Locusts destroy before moving on.

Quote

the similarities to a genetic pattern between all living creatures is because as the bible says all have been made from the same source the earth.

OK, maybe you can answer the question t8 won’t. Do you predict that, because of this “reason” you give, the same job should be expected to be done the same way in different species?

Quote

now if some men want to call them self apes that s fine with me some have given worse names,but coming or descending from apes I do not think so, it take more than a ape to make a man,man is built like no other ,he has all his features in the right place ,he can do all by himself what all other animal can only do by acting one or two of his actions,there is no other so versatile a real leader if he would use wisdom and understanding,

Idiots disregard their biological classification, too. Sorry again, but it is a fact that you and I are apes.

Quote

you say that the environment is 55% of influence well this must have been good years those last two million years kill,kill,kill,

We have killed to eat. Is that what you mean? No, you mean humans have killed humans, and you are overwhelmingly wrong, wrong, wrong.

Quote

to eat,to cloth ,to protect,ape did the same road at the same time and they have not change a bit,still cant talk,still did not make a house,still did not made a city,still swings from trees ,so did not made transportation,did not learn to write,still climb up the trees wen danger is around,ect.

You really have no idea, do you.

Quote

you see Stuart,if man would be retarded as an ape your evolution theory could stick,but to me it is a insult to my intelligence of cause I have only a IQ of 130 this is not the best but is many times better than any ape

Maybe you could start thinking like a person of intelligence then. An intelligent ape.

Quote

a story is only true or could be true when all the little figures mach ,and evolution only works in millions of years, for instance ;competitive behavior in men is not by nature ,but is triggered ,or willfully chosen,and is kept alive if not feed by others for their own interest,

No, evolution works minute by minute. It just takes thousands of years for its effects to become obvious to idiot creationists. Not that any of them have enough honesty to look for that reality.

Quote

now,you do not believe in religion so hem I but I believe in proper behavior ,and understandable behavior ,and the use of intelligent principles,;;like do not jump from a bridge or a plane unless you have a parachute,do not cut off your harm it hurts , work for a living ,do not steal,do not kill ect………….

Places and bridges or not, don’t think for a second we would have survived the last 80,000 years or longer as a species without having “proper behaviour” guided by genes and environment. That is the source of yours too.

Quote

the misery in the world should not be there,a child that is hungry should not exist,wars should not exist,all can and are preventable , only men can think to prevent this no animal can do that.

You mean, humans are the only animal that can think to prevent that.

Quote

I have been in construction for 50 years at all level of management ,and as a trades man,I am also a safety officer ,and many years back all big project had there casualty sometime 2 or 4 or more,but after ten years of working diligently on the big projects sites like oil refinery ,and paper mills ,bridges we now have ZERO casualties on 90% of the projects and keep improving ,because it is PREVENTABLE, this is only possible because we are NOT animals but the best there is on earth, HUMAN,

How many sparrows do you see getting injured in bridge building projects of their own design?

Can’t speak for beavers…

Stuart

[terraricca]

stu

Quote

How many sparrows do you see getting injured in bridge building projects of their own design? Can’t speak for beavers…

do you know why beavers cant help them self to built dams?

do you know what make a bird migrating ?

and why are there so many bird i mean different ones ,and i mean small ,big medium ,long legs ,short legs ,big beaks ,ect,,,,,

Pierre

[terraricca]

stu

Quote

OK, maybe you can answer the question t8 won’t. Do you predict that, because of this “reason” you give, the same job should be expected to be done the same way in different species?

this question is not clear to me could you re work the question ?

Pierre

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ July 22 2011,16:48)

stu Quote OK, maybe you can answer the question t8 won’t.  Do you predict that, because of this “reason” you give, the same job should be expected to be done the same way in different species? this question is not clear to me could you re work the question ? Pierre

Never mind.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ July 22 2011,16:41)

stu Quote How many sparrows do you see getting injured in bridge building projects of their own design?   Can’t speak for beavers… do you know why beavers cant help them self to built dams? do you know what make a bird migrating ? and why are there so many bird i mean different ones ,and i mean small ,big medium ,long legs ,short legs ,big beaks ,ect,,,,, Pierre

Because the bible says they are all made of the same source the earth.

Tell me you accept that as an explanation for the diversity of species on the planet! That is what you claimed only a couple of posts ago.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ July 22 2011,09:21)

Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,19:16) It is not just according to me, it is a proven fact that humans are the product of evolution.   Stuart Hi Stuart, You have yet to prove your belief in an imaginary process with unambiguous evidence. I would be willing to look at any evidence you POST!   …even though you stopped looking at mine. (Link) Your friend Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Bump for Stuart

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ July 23 2011,04:29)

Quote (terraricca @ July 22 2011,16:41) stu Quote How many sparrows do you see getting injured in bridge building projects of their own design?   Can’t speak for beavers… Because the bible says they are all made of the same source the earth. Tell me you accept that as an explanation for the diversity of species on the planet!  That is what you claimed only a couple of posts ago. Stuart stu being from the same source in principal or raw material,does not means that all the same structure and instinct ,and intelligent is given to all, man ,as no feathers,or a hide like a bear,or like fish,or like whales,,,,,,,,ect but was is a fact is;; ALL WHAT WAS ORIGINALY LIVING HAD A PURPOSE AND WAS INTERTWINED FOR PERFECT BALANCE, this is lost ,and we loosing some creatures everyday,i mean extinct, the funny thing is ,that men is a supplement to earth not a necessity,like  insects are, that is why we call the planet earth a living planet, Quote Pierre Because the bible says they are all made of the same source the earth. Tell me you accept that as an explanation for the diversity of species on the planet!  That is what you claimed only a couple of posts ago.

do you know why beavers cant help them self to built dams?

do you know what make a bird migrating ?

and why are there so many bird i mean different ones ,and i mean small ,big medium ,long legs ,short legs ,big beaks ,ect,,,,,

Pierre[/quote]

just think ,the bible was teaching this for 4000 years ,evolution is only available in schools for the past 150 years or so,

so you did not answer my questions why?

Pierre

[terraricca]

stu

stu

being from the same source in principal or raw material,does not means that all the same structure and instinct ,and intelligent is given to all,

man ,as no feathers,or a hide like a bear,or like fish,or like whales,,,,,,,,ect

but was is a fact is;; ALL WHAT WAS ORIGINALY LIVING HAD A PURPOSE AND WAS INTERTWINED FOR PERFECT BALANCE,

this is lost ,and we loosing some creatures everyday,i mean extinct,

the funny thing is ,that men is a supplement to earth not a necessity,like insects are,

that is why we call the planet earth a living planet,

Pierre

[Stu]

terraricca

Quote

do you know why beavers cant help them self to built dams?

Isn’t that instinctive behaviour, an extended phenotype of the beaver genome, there because it confers such a huge survival advantage? What do you mean by “beavers cant help them self to built dams”?

Quote

do you know what make a bird migrating ?

According to the Holy Wikipedia, bird migration is “Bird movements include those made in response to changes in food availability, habitat or weather.”

So I’d say what makes a bird species migratory is that their food, habitat and/or the weather changes seasonally, enough that it is worth the energy expenditure of flying distances that are in some cases vast.

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and why are there so many bird i mean different ones ,and i mean small ,big medium ,long legs ,short legs ,big beaks ,ect,,,,,

I’d say it is mostly adaptation to sources of food and sexual selection. And in New Zealand the flightless birds have occupied the forest floor and taken up the niche that would be occupied by ground mammals in other countries.

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just think ,the bible was teaching this for 4000 years ,evolution is only available in schools for the past 150 years or so,

The bible also “teaches” that there are five different ways of making human beings, that snakes and donkeys talk, and that the earth existed before light. All of these are wrong.

I don’t know where you got 4000 years from. When do you think the Jewish bible was written?

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being from the same source in principal or raw material,does not means that all the same structure and instinct ,and intelligent is given to all, man ,as no feathers,or a hide like a bear,or like fish,or like whales,,,,,,,,ect

So you have really given no explanation, you have just invented words that don’t appear to describe anything specific. Here you call it “the same source in principal or raw material”. Exactly what raw material do you mean? Did you mean principal or principle?

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but was is a fact is;; ALL WHAT WAS ORIGINALY LIVING HAD A PURPOSE AND WAS INTERTWINED FOR PERFECT BALANCE,

For most of the history of the earth the only life forms present were single-celled organisms living in the sea, from which all other life sprang. Tell me what their “purpose” was.

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this is lost ,and we loosing some creatures everyday,i mean extinct, the funny thing is ,that men is a supplement to earth not a necessity,like insects are, that is why we call the planet earth a living planet,

It is true that the ecosystems of the earth could carry on fine without humans, but humans could not carry on without microorganisms, for example, but is that what you mean by “supplement”?

Stuart

[terraricca]

stu

Quote

this is lost ,and we loosing some creatures everyday,i mean extinct, the funny thing is ,that men is a supplement to earth not a necessity,like insects are, that is why we call the planet earth a living planet, It is true that the ecosystems of the earth could carry on fine without humans, but humans could not carry on without microorganisms, for example, but is that what you mean by “supplement”? Stuart

so this is one quote from the bible we both agree on,right?

Ge 2:8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.

so we know that men as been formed from the dust of the earth,and he was put in the garden,

and so is not a contributor to the earth but a reciever ,and so can be eliminate without having any effect on the earth ecosystems

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do you know why beavers cant help them self to built dams? Isn’t that instinctive behaviour, an extended phenotype of the beaver genome, there because it confers such a huge survival advantage? What do you mean by “beavers cant help them self to built dams”?

according to the latest research it is the noise of running water that triggers the need to intervene and built a dam of fixed one,

this part of his nature,right ?

Quote

According to the Holy Wikipedia, bird migration is “Bird movements include those made in response to changes in food availability, habitat or weather.” So I’d say what makes a bird species migratory is that their food, habitat and/or the weather changes seasonally, enough that it is worth the energy expenditure of flying distances that are in some cases vast.

yes but they leave before they missing any food ,research show that it is a inside call that tell them it is time to go ,and many do not eat for many days or weeks and are guided with a map in there mind ,
and there is 1000s of birds kind,right?

Quote

just think ,the bible was teaching this for 4000 years ,evolution is only available in schools for the past 150 years or so, The bible also “teaches” that there are five different ways of making human beings, that snakes and donkeys talk, and that the earth existed before light. All of these are wrong. I don’t know where you got 4000 years from. When do you think the Jewish bible was written?

2011 to Christ + 1500 to moses + 800 to Abraham the oral knowledge approx 4000 or before

Quote

being from the same source in principal or raw material,does not means that all the same structure and instinct ,and intelligent is given to all, man ,as no feathers,or a hide like a bear,or like fish,or like whales,,,,,,,,ect So you have really given no explanation, you have just invented words that don’t appear to describe anything specific. Here you call it “the same source in principal or raw material”. Exactly what raw material do you mean? Did you mean principal or principle

well all the raw material is found on the planet earth ,no? dust ,water,and all the chemicals needed (like copper,iron,magnesium,and all others) are on the planet no??

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but was is a fact is;; ALL WHAT WAS ORIGINALY LIVING HAD A PURPOSE AND WAS INTERTWINED FOR PERFECT BALANCE, For most of the history of the earth the only life forms present were single-celled organisms living in the sea, from which all other life sprang. Tell me what their “purpose” was.

from a single cell how you make a second one but different so that it can keep going for ever ?

Pierre

[terraricca]

stu

Quote

The bible also “teaches” that there are five different ways of making human beings, that snakes and donkeys talk, and that the earth existed before light. All of these are wrong.

either you get feed by religion and find conflict with them ,i do not care ,

but the bible does not teach what you are saying,

Pierre

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