Christians and muslims believe the same thing

[Stu]

Quote (princess @ June 22 2011,06:48)

dawkins uses the trinity belief as his foundation to dispute there is no god.  the 'he' used refers to dawkins. i don't know why a person believes god is a male, you would have to ask them. sorry.

Fair enough then. Perhaps those people think their god is a living organism, since that is the sort of thing to which you apply the pronoun “he”.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 22 2011,11:36)

Quote (Stu @ June 21 2011,17:52) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 21 2011,03:42) Quote (Stu @ June 20 2011,23:10) I am still failing to see how blood is not the same thing as sacrifice, other than the pouring on of the blood from the sacrificial animal (specifically a great ape in the case of Jesus, if any of it is true) as a gruesome and barbaric cleansing ritual for mindless and ignorant people.   Shall I just clarify what I wrote by asking you to read it again?  With no god there is no “Problem of Evil”.  This is a very specific term to describe an aspect of christian mythology, not just any old term for ethics.  If you don't follow a brutal celestial conspiracy theory of Imaginary Murderous Dictators then you do not have to endlessly ponder about whether a loving god would allow bad or apparently unjust things to happen.   Not sure what you mean about refuting things.  What do you mean? Stuart So is it your belief that there is no God and hence no such thing as Evil? That is not relevant to the point I made here.  Do you understand the point? The “Problem of Evil”… …never mind. Stuart No, I understood are you saying there is no problem with evil? The point is you really do not believe that God exists and you say that God is imaginary therefore I am asking you is “Evil” imaginary or real?

Regarding the PROBLEM OF EVIL, please go back and read what I wrote if you want to know what point I was making.

I don't use the word evil in conversation because it is a mindless religious platitude. That does not mean I think everything in the world is fine: there are obviously really nasty things happening, but the word evil is where most people stop thinking which, in my experience leads to really poor attempts at diminishing the presence of nasty things in the word.

One of those nasty things is islam, and another is christianity. Both of those claims have been substantiated here over and over again.

Stuart

[942767]

Quote (Stu @ June 22 2011,06:42)

Quote (942767 @ June 22 2011,01:06) Quote (Stu @ June 21 2011,17:52) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 21 2011,03:42) Quote (Stu @ June 20 2011,23:10) I am still failing to see how blood is not the same thing as sacrifice, other than the pouring on of the blood from the sacrificial animal (specifically a great ape in the case of Jesus, if any of it is true) as a gruesome and barbaric cleansing ritual for mindless and ignorant people.   Shall I just clarify what I wrote by asking you to read it again?  With no god there is no “Problem of Evil”.  This is a very specific term to describe an aspect of christian mythology, not just any old term for ethics.  If you don't follow a brutal celestial conspiracy theory of Imaginary Murderous Dictators then you do not have to endlessly ponder about whether a loving god would allow bad or apparently unjust things to happen.   Not sure what you mean about refuting things.  What do you mean? Stuart So is it your belief that there is no God and hence no such thing as Evil? That is not relevant to the point I made here.  Do you understand the point? The “Problem of Evil”… …never mind. Stuart Don't you mean, No God, no accountability?  Live and let live.  Eat, drink, and make Mary, for tomorrow you die. Love in Christ, Marty Do we need a thread where I explain to christians their own mythology of the Problem of Evil?? Didn't you pay attention at Sunday School? Neither did I but I still understand what the Problem of Sin actually is! Good grief people can we do just a little bit of homework here? Stuart

I must have attended a different Sunday School than you, but evil=sin, you got that right.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Does anyone here actually know what the Problem of Evil IS?

See! My avatar is not blinded, it just can't believe the gullibility and ignorance.

If you haven't invented a god the you haven't invented a “Problem of Evil”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

This is the realm of theodicy, apparently. Are there any theidiots here who could explain it for the others?

Stuart

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,13:43)

Does anyone here actually know what the Problem of Evil IS? See!  My avatar is not blinded, it just can't believe the gullibility and ignorance. If you haven't invented a god the you haven't invented a “Problem of Evil”:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil This is the realm of theodicy, apparently.  Are there any theidiots here who could explain it for the others? Stuart

stuart

the answer is true faith,

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,06:43)

Does anyone here actually know what the Problem of Evil IS? See!  My avatar is not blinded, it just can't believe the gullibility and ignorance. If you haven't invented a god the you haven't invented a “Problem of Evil”:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil This is the realm of theodicy, apparently.  Are there any theidiots here who could explain it for the others? Stuart

Hi Stu:

The fact is that God is a reality, and that in His infinite wisdom he has created all of his sentient beings with a free will, and evil has resulted as a consequence of man's choice to do evil.

Romans 5

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And so, the question seems to be “why does He allow evil”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ June 22 2011,20:25)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 22 2011,11:36) Quote (Stu @ June 21 2011,17:52) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 21 2011,03:42) Quote (Stu @ June 20 2011,23:10) I am still failing to see how blood is not the same thing as sacrifice, other than the pouring on of the blood from the sacrificial animal (specifically a great ape in the case of Jesus, if any of it is true) as a gruesome and barbaric cleansing ritual for mindless and ignorant people.   Shall I just clarify what I wrote by asking you to read it again?  With no god there is no “Problem of Evil”.  This is a very specific term to describe an aspect of christian mythology, not just any old term for ethics.  If you don't follow a brutal celestial conspiracy theory of Imaginary Murderous Dictators then you do not have to endlessly ponder about whether a loving god would allow bad or apparently unjust things to happen.   Not sure what you mean about refuting things.  What do you mean? Stuart So is it your belief that there is no God and hence no such thing as Evil? That is not relevant to the point I made here.  Do you understand the point? The “Problem of Evil”… …never mind. Stuart No, I understood are you saying there is no problem with evil? The point is you really do not believe that God exists and you say that God is imaginary therefore I am asking you is “Evil” imaginary or real? Regarding the PROBLEM OF EVIL, please go back and read what I wrote if you want to know what point I was making. I don't use the word evil in conversation because it is a mindless religious platitude.  That does not mean I think everything in the world is fine: there are obviously really nasty things happening, but the word evil is where most people stop thinking which, in my experience leads to really poor attempts at diminishing the presence of nasty things in the word.   One of those nasty things is islam, and another is christianity.  Both of those claims have been substantiated here over and over again. Stuart

So what you are really saying is “Obviously nasty things” Are arbitrary, right? Who decides what is “obviously nasty”

Where is this universal standard that you seem to arbitrarily apply?

It seems you believe in evil by whatever name you want to call it

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2011,07:34)

Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,13:43) Does anyone here actually know what the Problem of Evil IS? See!  My avatar is not blinded, it just can't believe the gullibility and ignorance. If you haven't invented a god the you haven't invented a “Problem of Evil”:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil This is the realm of theodicy, apparently.  Are there any theidiots here who could explain it for the others? Stuart stuart the answer is true faith, Pierre

Thanks for that platitude. I bet you would be the last person to ask what it actually means.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ June 23 2011,12:47)

Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,06:43) Does anyone here actually know what the Problem of Evil IS? See!  My avatar is not blinded, it just can't believe the gullibility and ignorance. If you haven't invented a god the you haven't invented a “Problem of Evil”:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil This is the realm of theodicy, apparently.  Are there any theidiots here who could explain it for the others? Stuart Hi Stu: The fact is that God is a reality, and that in His infinite wisdom he has created all of his sentient beings with a free will, and evil has resulted as a consequence of man's choice to do evil. Romans 5 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: And so, the question seems to be “why does He allow evil”. Love in Christ, Marty

The idiocy of this theidiotic point of view is that you believe the Imaginary Friends of heaven sat there watching humans live short, brutal lives for 180 thousand years or more, then 5 or so thousand years ago decided that enough was enough. We know, they thought. Let's impress ourselves by having a divine human killed in order to fulfill our own rules, the ones that we think humans are ignoring, and by the way, once that human has been killed we will cancel the rules.

Moronic.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2011,15:29)

Quote (Stu @ June 22 2011,20:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 22 2011,11:36) Quote (Stu @ June 21 2011,17:52) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 21 2011,03:42) Quote (Stu @ June 20 2011,23:10) I am still failing to see how blood is not the same thing as sacrifice, other than the pouring on of the blood from the sacrificial animal (specifically a great ape in the case of Jesus, if any of it is true) as a gruesome and barbaric cleansing ritual for mindless and ignorant people.   Shall I just clarify what I wrote by asking you to read it again?  With no god there is no “Problem of Evil”.  This is a very specific term to describe an aspect of christian mythology, not just any old term for ethics.  If you don't follow a brutal celestial conspiracy theory of Imaginary Murderous Dictators then you do not have to endlessly ponder about whether a loving god would allow bad or apparently unjust things to happen.   Not sure what you mean about refuting things.  What do you mean? Stuart So is it your belief that there is no God and hence no such thing as Evil? That is not relevant to the point I made here.  Do you understand the point? The “Problem of Evil”… …never mind. Stuart No, I understood are you saying there is no problem with evil? The point is you really do not believe that God exists and you say that God is imaginary therefore I am asking you is “Evil” imaginary or real? Regarding the PROBLEM OF EVIL, please go back and read what I wrote if you want to know what point I was making. I don't use the word evil in conversation because it is a mindless religious platitude.  That does not mean I think everything in the world is fine: there are obviously really nasty things happening, but the word evil is where most people stop thinking which, in my experience leads to really poor attempts at diminishing the presence of nasty things in the word.   One of those nasty things is islam, and another is christianity.  Both of those claims have been substantiated here over and over again. Stuart So what you are really saying is “Obviously nasty things” Are arbitrary, right?  Who decides what is “obviously nasty” Where is this universal standard that you seem to arbitrarily apply? It seems you believe in evil by whatever name you want to call it

Get back to us when you have something to say that is relevant to the point.

Stuart

[princess]

Quote

Let's impress ourselves by having a divine human killed in order to fulfill our own rules, the ones that we think humans are ignoring, and by the way, once that human has been killed we will cancel the rules.

what is a divine human?

the killing per the christian text is the jews gave the thumbs down and the romans carried out the killing, a little rewording and you would have had it correct, per chrisitianity the killing of jesus was prophecy.

i do understand though what you are portraying, how the rules changed, most of this will be rebutted with books acredited to paul, have had a few 'debates' on this myself.

i am a bit confused, how is it correct that you can use the word nasty and some use the word evil, i do understand that language changes with new generations, what some call slang to others it is normal speech. for instance the word wicked, define as being evil or nasty, some use the term as being impressed or a good thing.

i disagree that people turn a blind eye to things that are nasty, it seems that today that more attention is giving to nasty things then good things.

or we could re-route the conversation to the paranormal, as some call it. for by what i understand they consider there are a few evil spirits running around the world.

i have to run, do take care of yourself Prince.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,18:56)

Get back to us when you have something to say that is relevant to the point. Stuart

I thought so, you are incapable of getting to the crux of the matter.

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ June 24 2011,01:51)

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2011,07:34) Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,13:43) Does anyone here actually know what the Problem of Evil IS? See!  My avatar is not blinded, it just can't believe the gullibility and ignorance. If you haven't invented a god the you haven't invented a “Problem of Evil”:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil This is the realm of theodicy, apparently.  Are there any theidiots here who could explain it for the others? Stuart stuart the answer is true faith, Pierre Thanks for that platitude.  I bet you would be the last person to ask what it actually means. Stuart

Bt

NO, I be the first so what does it mean ?

Pierre

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2011,11:30)

Quote (Stu @ June 24 2011,01:51) Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2011,07:34) Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,13:43) Does anyone here actually know what the Problem of Evil IS? See!  My avatar is not blinded, it just can't believe the gullibility and ignorance. If you haven't invented a god the you haven't invented a “Problem of Evil”:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil This is the realm of theodicy, apparently.  Are there any theidiots here who could explain it for the others? Stuart stuart the answer is true faith, Pierre Thanks for that platitude.  I bet you would be the last person to ask what it actually means. Stuart Bt NO, I be the first so what does it mean ? Pierre

It would be unfair of me to make that accusation without inviting your reply:

What does “the answer is true faith” actually mean?

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 24 2011,06:42)

Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,18:56) Get back to us when you have something to say that is relevant to the point. Stuart I thought so, you are incapable of getting to the crux of the matter.

You paraphrased me well there.

So, do you have anything to say about the Problem of Evil?

Perhaps you don't believe your god is both omniscient and benevolent.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (princess @ June 24 2011,00:31)

Quote Let's impress ourselves by having a divine human killed in order to fulfill our own rules, the ones that we think humans are ignoring, and by the way, once that human has been killed we will cancel the rules. what is a divine human? the killing per the christian text is the jews gave the thumbs down and the romans carried out the killing, a little rewording and you would have had it correct, per chrisitianity the killing of jesus was prophecy. i do understand though what you are portraying, how the rules changed, most of this will be rebutted with books acredited to paul, have had a few 'debates' on this myself. i am a bit confused, how is it correct that you can use the word nasty and some use the word evil, i do understand that language changes with new generations, what some call slang to others it is normal speech. for instance the word wicked, define as being evil or nasty, some use the term as being impressed or a good thing. i disagree that people turn a blind eye to things that are nasty, it seems that today that more attention is giving to nasty things then good things. or we could re-route the conversation to the paranormal, as some call it. for by what i understand they consider there are a few evil spirits running around the world. i have to run, do take care of yourself Prince.

Indeed a good question. What is a divine human?

This is a small version you are painting of the alleged death of the alleged Jesus. Indeed if any of the story is right then it is that the Jews turned down their thumbs and the Romans did the executing. But what happened to thanking the Jews and the Romans for their part in organising the human sacrifice that leads to your atonement? What about “no it wasn't just Jews and Romans, it was god killing his son / himself so we could all be saved”?

Regarding prophecy, get back to me on that point when you can demonstrate:

-Isaiah (or whoever) was not writing about some other person / concept altogether.

-Jesus actually existed

-Jesus changed his name from Emmanuel

-Jesus was executed

-Jesus had done to him any of the things listed in the alleged prophecy regarding his execution

The mythology of Jesus is a second story built on a castle in the air. It is a fictional story that included many of the elements of supposed prophecy, but got some wrong. That is clear from the bits invented by the gospel writers, whoever they were. For example, you must be aware that the supposed census that had baby Jesus moved to a prophetical place of birth didn't happen at the alleged time of his birth.

I don't use the word evil because the religious use it in relation to their celestial conspiracy theories of Imaginary Friends, but more specifically because it is a mindless word that is so often used in place of a proper analysis of a situation.

A person is killed. If you call the killer evil then you have found a mindless label. If you call that person a hitman or a psychopath or a doctor administering euthanasia then you have given an insight into understanding motive. Evil tells you nothing, and the next step is to mindlessly interpret that in terms of celestial intent.

The Problem of Evil suffers from this in both senses. Firstly there is the problem itself, that of how a benevolent and omniscient god could allow evil. The only answer I have had so far is not an answer: the god allows evil because it gives people freewill. Well then how can you call it benevolent because it STILL ALLOWS EVIL!

Secondly, the Problem of Evil is actually the Problem of Hitmen, or the Problem of Psychopathy or the Problem of Compassionate Euthanasia (not that I would call the last one a problem). Evil says nothing helpful, it accuses without any helpful analysis.

Just like all of christianity.

Evil spirits running around??

Stuart

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ June 25 2011,00:15)

Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2011,11:30) Quote (Stu @ June 24 2011,01:51) Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2011,07:34) Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,13:43) Does anyone here actually know what the Problem of Evil IS? See!  My avatar is not blinded, it just can't believe the gullibility and ignorance. If you haven't invented a god the you haven't invented a “Problem of Evil”:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil This is the realm of theodicy, apparently.  Are there any theidiots here who could explain it for the others? Stuart stuart the answer is true faith, Pierre Thanks for that platitude.  I bet you would be the last person to ask what it actually means. Stuart Bt NO, I be the first so what does it mean ? Pierre It would be unfair of me to make that accusation without inviting your reply: What does “the answer is true faith” actually mean? Stuart

stu

I ask first ,you answer first

Pierre

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2011,18:01)

Quote (Stu @ June 25 2011,00:15) Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2011,11:30) Quote (Stu @ June 24 2011,01:51) Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2011,07:34) Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,13:43) Does anyone here actually know what the Problem of Evil IS? See!  My avatar is not blinded, it just can't believe the gullibility and ignorance. If you haven't invented a god the you haven't invented a “Problem of Evil”:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil This is the realm of theodicy, apparently.  Are there any theidiots here who could explain it for the others? Stuart stuart the answer is true faith, Pierre Thanks for that platitude.  I bet you would be the last person to ask what it actually means. Stuart Bt NO, I be the first so what does it mean ? Pierre It would be unfair of me to make that accusation without inviting your reply: What does “the answer is true faith” actually mean? Stuart stu I ask first ,you answer first Pierre

Sorry I must have missed the question. What are you asking?

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ June 24 2011,17:16)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 24 2011,06:42) Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,18:56) Get back to us when you have something to say that is relevant to the point. Stuart I thought so, you are incapable of getting to the crux of the matter. You paraphrased me well there. So, do you have anything to say about the Problem of Evil? Perhaps you don't believe your god is both omniscient and benevolent. Stuart

Omniscient and Benevolent?

If One is Omniscient then only that One can truly know what Benevolence is right?

Consider your judgements and mine are based on partial understanding and comprehension, since we cannot know all things we cannot not “Know” what is 100% right. So as humans we pretend to be certain to know what is right and what is wrong. This is why God told us to not eat from the tree of what is good and what is evil because the deception of Satan was to make man believe he could determine for himself what is good and what is evil.

This is why God sent messangers to inform us of what we should do because our judgement is always based upon our own impatience.

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 25 2011,06:15)

Quote (Stu @ June 24 2011,17:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 24 2011,06:42) Quote (Stu @ June 23 2011,18:56) Get back to us when you have something to say that is relevant to the point. Stuart I thought so, you are incapable of getting to the crux of the matter. You paraphrased me well there. So, do you have anything to say about the Problem of Evil? Perhaps you don't believe your god is both omniscient and benevolent. Stuart Omniscient and Benevolent? If One is Omniscient then only that One can truly know what Benevolence is right? Consider your judgements and mine are based on partial understanding and comprehension, since we cannot know all things we cannot not “Know” what is 100% right. So as humans we pretend to be certain to know what is right and what is wrong. This is why God told us to not eat from the tree of what is good and what is evil because the deception of Satan was to make man believe he could determine for himself what is good and what is evil. This is why God sent messangers to inform us of what we should do because our judgement is always based upon our own impatience.

Your celestial conspiracy theory makes you believe that there is objectively “100% right and wrong” but that is nonsense. Humans think of morals in absolute terms but they will also have rules that determine which rule applies when there is conflict, and dilemma when two conflicting rules appear to be of the same importance.

The Ancient Jewish mythologies had a go at making lists of god's rules, and many of them are absurd. For example how many different types of fabric are you wearing at the moment? Was it satan talking when god supposedly said that anyone who eats from the tree of knowledge should surely die? Because no one did. Maybe this was the faux metaphorical “separation from god” death that makes the word death conveniently
meaningless when it turns out that god was literally wrong.

Anyway, brave of you to admit you hear voices in your head. Can you not see more moral ways to view the world than believing you can interpret demons, spirits, ghouls and Imaginary Friends that are not really there?

Stuart

[Author]

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