Christians and muslims believe the same thing

[Stu]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,17:47)

Quote (942767 @ May 30 2011,01:41) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 30 2011,05:40) Hey Hey Guess what everyone !! Christians and Muslims in fact do not believe in the same thing! True, SF: And so, let's pray that God will give them revelation knowledge of the truth. God is not willing than any man should perish, but that all may come to repentance. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Numbers, That is true, God desires to save ALL men.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stuart

[942767]

Quote (Stu @ June 07 2011,23:24)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,17:47) Quote (942767 @ May 30 2011,01:41) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 30 2011,05:40) Hey Hey Guess what everyone !! Christians and Muslims in fact do not believe in the same thing! True, SF: And so, let's pray that God will give them revelation knowledge of the truth. God is not willing than any man should perish, but that all may come to repentance. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Numbers, That is true, God desires to save ALL men. 2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Stuart

True.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2011,06:27)

Quote (Stu @ June 07 2011,23:24) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,17:47) Quote (942767 @ May 30 2011,01:41) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 30 2011,05:40) Hey Hey Guess what everyone !! Christians and Muslims in fact do not believe in the same thing! True, SF: And so, let's pray that God will give them revelation knowledge of the truth. God is not willing than any man should perish, but that all may come to repentance. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Numbers, That is true, God desires to save ALL men. 2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Stuart True. Love in Christ, Marty

But then again:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is … not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Stuart

[942767]

Quote (Stu @ June 08 2011,16:30)

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2011,06:27) Quote (Stu @ June 07 2011,23:24) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,17:47) Quote (942767 @ May 30 2011,01:41) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 30 2011,05:40) Hey Hey Guess what everyone !! Christians and Muslims in fact do not believe in the same thing! True, SF: And so, let's pray that God will give them revelation knowledge of the truth. God is not willing than any man should perish, but that all may come to repentance. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Numbers, That is true, God desires to save ALL men. 2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Stuart True. Love in Christ, Marty But then again: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is … not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Stuart

Hi Stu:

The commission from our Lord is to go into all the world and preach the gospel (good news that you can have your sins forgiven and be reconciled to God with a repentant heart if you desire to do so) to any one who wants to hear.

He is not willing that any man should perish and so the commission to share the good news with any one who wants to hear.

And so, the scripture from 2 Thessalonians that you quoted states: because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie…

And so, no, God is not willing that any man should perish but that he should have eternal life with pleasures at His right hand forever more, but if a man chooses to in unrighteous pleasures of this world which are temporal over what God has to offer both now and in eternity, God will allow that also, but there is a day of judgment wherein all men will be judged according to their works.

Jesus has paid the price or judgment for the 1st death or spiritual separation from God for every human being with the sacrifice of his life.  And through the gospel a person is called into a personal relationship with God from this 1st death if that person so chooses to want this.  The choice is with the individual.

There will be a second death or spiritual separation from God, and for this death there is no sacrifice for sins, but the judgment rendered will be eternal separation from God through the destruction of their soul and that person's punishment in this destruction will be according to that person's works.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ June 09 2011,05:47)

Quote (Stu @ June 08 2011,16:30) Quote (942767 @ June 08 2011,06:27) Quote (Stu @ June 07 2011,23:24) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,17:47) Quote (942767 @ May 30 2011,01:41) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 30 2011,05:40) Hey Hey Guess what everyone !! Christians and Muslims in fact do not believe in the same thing! True, SF: And so, let's pray that God will give them revelation knowledge of the truth. God is not willing than any man should perish, but that all may come to repentance. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Numbers, That is true, God desires to save ALL men. 2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Stuart True. Love in Christ, Marty But then again: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is … not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Stuart Hi Stu: The commission from our Lord is to go into all the world and preach the gospel (good news that you can have your sins forgiven and be reconciled to God with a repentant heart if you desire to do so) to any one who wants to hear. He is not willing that any man should perish and so the commission to share the good news with any one who wants to hear. And so, the scripture from 2 Thessalonians that you quoted states: because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie… And so, no, God is not willing that any man should perish but that he should have eternal life with pleasures at His right hand forever more, but if a man chooses to in unrighteous pleasures of this world which are temporal over what God has to offer both now and in eternity, God will allow that also, but there is a day of judgment wherein all men will be judged according to their works. Jesus has paid the price or judgment for the 1st death or spiritual separation from God for every human being with the sacrifice of his life.  And through the gospel a person is called into a personal relationship with God from this 1st death if that person so chooses to want this.  The choice is with the individual. There will be a second death or spiritual separation from God, and for this death there is no sacrifice for sins, but the judgment rendered will be eternal separation from God through the destruction of their soul and that person's punishment in this destruction will be according to that person's works. Love in Christ, Marty

Just imagine how abominable things would be if any of what you wrote was actually true.

Just as well it isn't, eh!

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

If Christians and Muslims believed the same thing, then two questions arise.

1) Why do Muslims need to kill Christians?
2) Why do we need another faith (Muslim), if it is the same belief and faith as what Christians hold to? In deed, why even a different name?

[Proclaimer]

God hands people over to belief in lies when they reject the truth.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ June 09 2011,21:22)

If Christians and Muslims believed the same thing, then two questions arise. 1) Why do Muslims need to kill Christians? 2) Why do we need another faith (Muslim), if it is the same belief and faith as what Christians hold to? In deed, why even a different name?

They both believe that God Most High SAVES

By the way killing has been going on since the beginning so tell me what religion was Cain and what religion was Abel?

In the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown, tell me T8 why were the Christians killing the Jews.

My point is that it is God Alone who Saves and Christians, Jews and Muslims believe this same thing.

The problem is that for some reason when a Christian, Jew or Muslim must claim exclusivity of God.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ June 09 2011,21:23)

God hands people over to belief in lies when they reject the truth.

I said the Truth is GOD SAVES, is that wrong?

[942767]

Quote (Stu @ June 09 2011,18:42)

Quote (942767 @ June 09 2011,05:47) Quote (Stu @ June 08 2011,16:30) Quote (942767 @ June 08 2011,06:27) Quote (Stu @ June 07 2011,23:24) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,17:47) Quote (942767 @ May 30 2011,01:41) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 30 2011,05:40) Hey Hey Guess what everyone !! Christians and Muslims in fact do not believe in the same thing! True, SF: And so, let's pray that God will give them revelation knowledge of the truth. God is not willing than any man should perish, but that all may come to repentance. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Numbers, That is true, God desires to save ALL men. 2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Stuart True. Love in Christ, Marty But then again: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is … not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Stuart Hi Stu: The commission from our Lord is to go into all the world and preach the gospel (good news that you can have your sins forgiven and be reconciled to God with a repentant heart if you desire to do so) to any one who wants to hear. He is not willing that any man should perish and so the commission to share the good news with any one who wants to hear. And so, the scripture from 2 Thessalonians that you quoted states: because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie… And so, no, God is not willing that any man should perish but that he should have eternal life with pleasures at His right hand forever more, but if a man chooses to in unrighteous pleasures of this world which are temporal over what God has to offer both now and in eternity, God will allow that also, but there is a day of judgment wherein all men will be judged according to their works. Jesus has paid the price or judgment for the 1st death or spiritual separation from God for every human being with the sacrifice of his life.  And through the gospel a person is called into a personal relationship with God from this 1st death if that person so chooses to want this.  The choice is with the individual. There will be a second death or spiritual separation from God, and for this death there is no sacrifice for sins, but the judgment rendered will be eternal separation from God through the destruction of their soul and that person's punishment in this destruction will be according to that person's works. Love in Christ, Marty Just imagine how abominable things would be if any of what you wrote was actually true. Just as well it isn't, eh! Stuart

Hi Stu:

Abominable in what way?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ June 09 2011,21:23)

God hands people over to belief in lies when they reject the truth.

I agree, with one addition:

Belief in god hands people over to belief in lies when they reject the truth.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ June 10 2011,10:31)

Hi Stu: Abominable in what way? Love in Christ, Marty

Quote

The commission from our Lord is to go into all the world and preach the gospel

Please spare us from the abominably self-righteous, and encourage them into a spirituality that does not involve lying to others about things that aren't really there. The universe is too interesting for religious conspiracy theories of Imaginary Friends to detain even a single one of us from the engaging business of discovering what can reliably be known about it.

Quote

(good news that you can have your sins forgiven and be reconciled to God with a repentant heart if you desire to do so) to any one who wants to hear.

Having responsibility for your sins removed through a human sacrifice is abominable. It is an immoral position to adopt.

Quote

He is not willing that any man should perish and so the commission to share the good news with any one who wants to hear. And so, the scripture from 2 Thessalonians that you quoted states: because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie…

So I, as a non-believer, am blinded so I cannot see what I need to see to avoid punishment, whatever it is. How much more abominable could an Imaginary Friend get?

Quote

And so, no, God is not willing that any man should perish but that he should have eternal life with pleasures at His right hand forever more,

“Eternal life” is the abomination that robs real life of its meaning. Thankfully it is not real.

Quote

but if a man chooses to in unrighteous pleasures of this world which are temporal over what God has to offer both now and in eternity, God will allow that also, but there is a day of judgment wherein all men will be judged according to their works.

Your god can get lost. It has no moral authority now that it has boasted about its abominable slaughter of millions. Of course the Good News is that there is no divine conspiracy at work here. That would be the real abomination. Stuff just happens, no intent, and therefore no need to do mental gymnastics over dull fantasy concepts like “the problem of evil”. No god, no problem.

Quote

Jesus has paid the price or judgment for the 1st death or spiritual separation from God for every human being with the sacrifice of his life.

No such obscene immorality in my name thanks. I take sole responsibility for my own wrongdoing.

Quote

And through the gospel a person is called into a personal relationship with God from this 1st death if that person so chooses to want this. The choice is with the individual.

But there is no choice, is there. Punishment is the alternative. You will be dug up, judged, then permanently destroyed by fire. It really is a psychotic fantasy of a religion. Its practitioners are not detained in an institution mainly because there are so many of them.

Quote

There will be a second death or spiritual separation from God, and for this death there is no sacrifice for sins, but the judgment rendered will be eternal separation from God through the destruction of their soul and that person's punishment in this destruction will be according to that person's works.

Indeed. And you don't call that an abominable concept to even carry in your head, let alone give any credence to?

Stuart

[942767]

Hi Stu:

Do you find it abominable that there were men who were willing to sacrifice their lives in stopping Hitler from accomplishing his quest?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ June 14 2011,01:05)

Hi Stu: Do you find it abominable that there were men who were willing to sacrifice their lives in stopping Hitler from accomplishing his quest? Love in Christ, Marty

Yes of course I find that abominable. Why should they have ever been asked to do that?

I assume you mean the Hitler that apparently said the following:

“As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.”

“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.”

“Who says I am not under the special protection of God?”

“The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine.”

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith …we need believing people.”

“We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise. “

Christianity inspired Hitler by its dogged adherence to its dogmas over millennia. He figured that if they could make people believe nonsense for hundreds of years then he could build a new reich that could last too.

Maybe if christianity had not existed then the abomination of asking young men to die, or worse to kill to get rid of Hitler for us might have been less likely.

Stuart

[942767]

Quote (Stu @ June 14 2011,20:21)

Quote (942767 @ June 14 2011,01:05) Hi Stu: Do you find it abominable that there were men who were willing to sacrifice their lives in stopping Hitler from accomplishing his quest? Love in Christ, Marty Yes of course I find that abominable.  Why should they have ever been asked to do that? I assume you mean the Hitler that apparently said the following: “As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.” “I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.” “Who says I am not under the special protection of God?” “The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine.” “Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith …we need believing people.” “We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” “Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise. “ Christianity inspired Hitler by its dogged adherence to its dogmas over millennia.  He figured that if they could make people believe nonsense for hundreds of years then he could build a new reich that could last too. Maybe if christianity had not existed then the abomination of asking young men to die, or worse to kill to get rid of Hitler for us might have been less likely. Stuart

No, Stu:

Hitler did not exemplify a Christian life style, and neither did those who instituted the inquisition.

And so, if he did not exemplify a Christian life style, how can Christianity be blamed for what he did?

Maybe the Holocaust may jar your memory as to why those who fought against him were willing to sacrifice their lives to stop his madness.

But with Christ, he sacrificed his life to overcome evil. He obeyed God without sin, in spite of what evil men could do to him, even unto death on the cross, and because of his obedience, God has made him both Lord and Christ, and an example by his life style to those who choose to be reconciled to God, and the judge of the living and the dead.  Without his obedience, their would not be an accountablity for what a person has done in this life.  But thank God that there will be a day of reckoning.

But again, God is not willing that any man should perish, but that all may come to repentance.

THE TRUTH WILL BE MADE MANIFEST IN DUE SEASON

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Quote

No, Stu: Hitler did not exemplify a Christian life style, and neither did those who instituted the inquisition.

So Hitler was No True Scotsman (I refer to the logical fallacy of that name).

Quote

And so, if he did not exemplify a Christian life style, how can Christianity be blamed for what he did?

I don’t know. How could it be? Let me work on that one. Meantime let’s address what I really claimed, which was that christianity is abominable in the ways I described (you brought up Hitler, although I’m not sure what point you were trying to make).

If christianity had not existed, then Hitler would not have been inspired by its long and insidious successes at convincing people to believe nonsense. That is exactly what he took from it, and perhaps that was inspiration enough for him to do what he did. That is what he himself said.

Quote

Maybe the Holocaust may jar your memory as to why those who fought against him were willing to sacrifice their lives to stop his madness.

Not sure what point you are trying to make.

Quote

But with Christ, he sacrificed his life to overcome evil. He obeyed God without sin, in spite of what evil men could do to him, even unto death on the cross, and because of his obedience, God has made him both Lord and Christ, and an example by his life style to those who choose to be reconciled to God, and the judge of the living and the dead. Without his obedience, their would not be an accountablity for what a person has done in this life. But thank God that there will be a day of reckoning.

Perhaps you can look back in the thread and identify which version of “atonement” is that which you believe, and have a think about whether it contradicts scripture, which it appears to do. Of course I’m sure your experiences will enable you to find a way to twist the English language to make the abomination of atonement into something that sounds reassuring for those who have signed up for ChristianityTM.

Quote

But again, God is not willing that any man should perish, but that all may come to repentance.

Sure, but your Book of Talking Donkeys includes verses that say the opposite.

Quote

THE TRUTH WILL BE MADE MANIFEST IN DUE SEASON

No need to shout your fantasies and platitudes!

Stuart

[theodorej]

Greetings Stu …..Very few exemplify a christian lifestyle simply because christianity as taught by this world is replete with confusion…There are those that could live a christian life as they see it and not even know the Christ or the true purpose of his ministry….This is one of the reasons why this world as we know is going to come to an end….In the milenial world truth will abound,there will be no war and people will want to know God…..They will be amazed at the awesome power demonstrated to bring about this change….Stu it is coming whether you believe or not….my sense is you will be impressed with my imaginary freind…

[Stu]

Quote (theodorej @ June 18 2011,00:18)

Greetings Stu …..Very few exemplify a christian lifestyle simply because christianity as taught by this world is replete with confusion…There are those that could live a christian life as they see it and not even know the Christ or the true purpose of his ministry….This is one of the reasons why this world as we know is going to come to an end….In the milenial world truth will abound,there will be no war and people will want to know God…..They will be amazed at the awesome power demonstrated to bring about this change….Stu it is coming whether you believe or not….my sense is you will be impressed with my imaginary freind…

I think there is a better reason not to exemplify a “christian lifestyle”: it is immoral.

Why should a god that threatened you with being dug up after your death, judged against spurious arbitrary criteria, found wanting, then permanently destroyed by fire even warrant the dignity of consideration?

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ June 18 2011,00:24)

Quote (theodorej @ June 18 2011,00:18) Greetings Stu …..Very few exemplify a christian lifestyle simply because christianity as taught by this world is replete with confusion…There are those that could live a christian life as they see it and not even know the Christ or the true purpose of his ministry….This is one of the reasons why this world as we know is going to come to an end….In the milenial world truth will abound,there will be no war and people will want to know God…..They will be amazed at the awesome power demonstrated to bring about this change….Stu it is coming whether you believe or not….my sense is you will be impressed with my imaginary freind… I think there is a better reason not to exemplify a “christian lifestyle”: it is immoral. Why should a god that threatened you with being dug up after your death, judged against spurious arbitrary criteria, found wanting, then permanently destroyed by fire even warrant the dignity of consideration? Stuart

Why do you delete files off your computer and send them to the trash folder then after careful consideration decide which of those do you want to pernmanently delete?

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 19 2011,09:43)

Quote (Stu @ June 18 2011,00:24) Quote (theodorej @ June 18 2011,00:18) Greetings Stu …..Very few exemplify a christian lifestyle simply because christianity as taught by this world is replete with confusion…There are those that could live a christian life as they see it and not even know the Christ or the true purpose of his ministry….This is one of the reasons why this world as we know is going to come to an end….In the milenial world truth will abound,there will be no war and people will want to know God…..They will be amazed at the awesome power demonstrated to bring about this change….Stu it is coming whether you believe or not….my sense is you will be impressed with my imaginary freind… I think there is a better reason not to exemplify a “christian lifestyle”: it is immoral. Why should a god that threatened you with being dug up after your death, judged against spurious arbitrary criteria, found wanting, then permanently destroyed by fire even warrant the dignity of consideration? Stuart Why do you delete files off your computer and send them to the trash folder then after careful consideration decide which of those do you want to pernmanently delete?

I see you agree with me that I have more respect for your personal dignity than your religion does.

Stuart

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