Christians and muslims believe the same thing

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2011,06:40)

Well, now we see the root cause of your waywardness you believe that no one should be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour. We should allow people to do whatever they feel like doing, right?[/quote] How do we “see” that? You should address your concerns to christians.  It is they who believe you can abdicate responsibility for your wrongdoing by believing in a fantasy story about an ancient human sacrifice. I don't see muslims taking very much responsibility for the atrocities committed in the name of allah, either.  Walking away from that abomination of a religion would stop islamist violence it in its tracks, but you can't even organise for that to happen because you are too busy “submitting” to things that aren't really there. Stuart[/quote] Isn't it your belief that atrocities can only be attributed to the person commiting the atrocity?

Yes, but please tell me what that has to do with the point I made.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (karmarie @ May 01 2011,10:27)

Quote (Stu @ April 30 2011,01:21) karmarie You appear to have omitted the part about the unfortunate family values of Jesus. Stuart Stuart, what were those?

Matthew 10:21 (and indeed many families have been torn apart because of christianity).
Matthew 10:35-37
Matthew 12:47
Matthew 19:29
Matthew 23:9 (How do you honour your parents as required in Matthew15:4 if you can't call him father?)
Matthew 24:19

And that's just some of the examples to be found in Matthew.

Nasty business this christianity. I'm sure Jesus was not as nasty as the mythological script that was written for him after his death.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ May 01 2011,12:38)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2011,06:40) Well, now we see the root cause of your waywardness you believe that no one should be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour. We should allow people to do whatever they feel like doing, right? How do we “see” that? You should address your concerns to christians.  It is they who believe you can abdicate responsibility for your wrongdoing by believing in a fantasy story about an ancient human sacrifice. I don't see muslims taking very much responsibility for the atrocities committed in the name of allah, either.  Walking away from that abomination of a religion would stop islamist violence it in its tracks, but you can't even organise for that to happen because you are too busy “submitting” to things that aren't really there. Stuart[/quote] Isn't it your belief that atrocities can only be attributed to the person commiting the atrocity?[/quote] Yes, but please tell me what that has to do with the point I made. Stuart

You were blaming a religion and not a person, the religion does not say to commit atrocities and I'm not even sure what you are calling an atrocity?

The only atrocity ever commited is the killing of innocent people which is commited by most military in acts of war and yes intentional killing of the innocent is an atrocity but the Quran forbids such acts.

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2011,02:20)

Quote (Stu @ May 01 2011,12:38) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2011,06:40) Well, now we see the root cause of your waywardness you believe that no one should be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour. We should allow people to do whatever they feel like doing, right? How do we “see” that? You should address your concerns to christians.  It is they who believe you can abdicate responsibility for your wrongdoing by believing in a fantasy story about an ancient human sacrifice. I don't see muslims taking very much responsibility for the atrocities committed in the name of allah, either.  Walking away from that abomination of a religion would stop islamist violence it in its tracks, but you can't even organise for that to happen because you are too busy “submitting” to things that aren't really there. Stuart Isn't it your belief that atrocities can only be attributed to the person commiting the atrocity?[/quote] Yes, but please tell me what that has to do with the point I made. Stuart[/quote] You were blaming a religion and not a person, the religion does not say to commit atrocities and I'm not even sure what you are calling an atrocity? The only atrocity ever commited is the killing of innocent people which is commited by most military in acts of war and yes intentional killing of the innocent is an atrocity but the Quran forbids such acts.

Had this conversation with you already. If a muslim feels he has been oppressed for his RELIGION then the koran mandates the killing of the alleged oppressor.

In case you had (conveniently?) forgotten, here are the sura:

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:190 is quite devious in its apparent call for you not to begin hostilities. Of course then whole thing depends on what constitutes “hostilities” in the schoolyard argument about what constitutes persecution.

Are muslims above endless tedious arguments about who started it and therefore who was hostile to whom first? Hundreds of years of extreme antagonism against Jews in Palestine, to take just one of many examples, says they are not above provoking the fight. Of course, according to you these are not real muslims, and yet their violence is exactly what is entirely allowed by the koran if you feel the mere presence of Jews constitutes persecution, which appears to be the case.

The Religion of Extreme Prejudice is how it plays out. Maybe you are the only muslim on the planet. Even the prophet of your nasty religion took the sword to conquer Arabia. How come that happened if you are not allowed to begin hostilities. What a bunch of hypocrites.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ May 02 2011,22:21)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2011,02:20) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2011,12:38) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2011,06:40) Well, now we see the root cause of your waywardness you believe that no one should be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour. We should allow people to do whatever they feel like doing, right? How do we “see” that? You should address your concerns to christians.  It is they who believe you can abdicate responsibility for your wrongdoing by believing in a fantasy story about an ancient human sacrifice. I don't see muslims taking very much responsibility for the atrocities committed in the name of allah, either.  Walking away from that abomination of a religion would stop islamist violence it in its tracks, but you can't even organise for that to happen because you are too busy “submitting” to things that aren't really there. Stuart Isn't it your belief that atrocities can only be attributed to the person commiting the atrocity? Yes, but please tell me what that has to do with the point I made. Stuart[/quote] You were blaming a religion and not a person, the religion does not say to commit atrocities and I'm not even sure what you are calling an atrocity? The only atrocity ever commited is the killing of innocent people which is commited by most military in acts of war and yes intentional killing of the innocent is an atrocity but the Quran forbids such acts.[/quote] Had this conversation with you already.  If a muslim feels he has been oppressed for his RELIGION then the koran mandates the killing of the alleged oppressor. In case you had (conveniently?) forgotten, here are the sura: 2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:190 is quite devious in its apparent call for you not to begin hostilities.  Of course then whole thing depends on what constitutes “hostilities” in the schoolyard argument about what constitutes persecution. Are muslims above endless tedious arguments about who started it and therefore who was hostile to whom first?  Hundreds of years of extreme antagonism against Jews in Palestine, to take just one of many examples, says they are not above provoking the fight.  Of course, according to you these are not real muslims, and yet their violence is exactly what is entirely allowed by the koran if you feel the mere presence of Jews constitutes persecution, which appears to be the case. The Religion of Extreme Prejudice is how it plays out.  Maybe you are the only muslim on the planet.  Even the prophet of your nasty religion took the sword to conquer Arabia.  How come that happened if you are not allowed to begin hostilities.  What a bunch of hypocrites. Stuart

Allah loveth not aggressors.

Did you just skip over that? So, let me get this right to you any type of violence is an atrocity?

You think the holocaust should have just been allowed or was America just in seeking to kill all the oppressors?

You're quite silly.

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 04 2011,15:01)

Quote (Stu @ May 02 2011,22:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2011,02:20) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2011,12:38) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2011,06:40) Well, now we see the root cause of your waywardness you believe that no one should be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour. We should allow people to do whatever they feel like doing, right? How do we “see” that? You should address your concerns to christians.  It is they who believe you can abdicate responsibility for your wrongdoing by believing in a fantasy story about an ancient human sacrifice. I don't see muslims taking very much responsibility for the atrocities committed in the name of allah, either.  Walking away from that abomination of a religion would stop islamist violence it in its tracks, but you can't even organise for that to happen because you are too busy “submitting” to things that aren't really there. Stuart Isn't it your belief that atrocities can only be attributed to the person commiting the atrocity? Yes, but please tell me what that has to do with the point I made. Stuart You were blaming a religion and not a person, the religion does not say to commit atrocities and I'm not even sure what you are calling an atrocity? The only atrocity ever commited is the killing of innocent people which is commited by most military in acts of war and yes intentional killing of the innocent is an atrocity but the Quran forbids such acts.[/quote] Had this conversation with you already.  If a muslim feels he has been oppressed for his RELIGION then the koran mandates the killing of the alleged oppressor. In case you had (conveniently?) forgotten, here are the sura: 2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:190 is quite devious in its apparent call for you not to begin hostilities.  Of course then whole thing depends on what constitutes “hostilities” in the schoolyard argument about what constitutes persecution. Are muslims above endless tedious arguments about who started it and therefore who was hostile to whom first?  Hundreds of years of extreme antagonism against Jews in Palestine, to take just one of many examples, says they are not above provoking the fight.  Of course, according to you these are not real muslims, and yet their violence is exactly what is entirely allowed by the koran if you feel the mere presence of Jews constitutes persecution, which appears to be the case. The Religion of Extreme Prejudice is how it plays out.  Maybe you are the only muslim on the planet.  Even the prophet of your nasty religion took the sword to conquer Arabia.  How come that happened if you are not allowed to begin hostilities.  What a bunch of hypocrites. Stuart[/quote] Allah loveth not aggressors. Did you just skip over that? So, let me get this right to you any type of violence is an atrocity? You think the holocaust should have just been allowed or was America just in seeking to kill all the oppressors? You're quite silly.

To answer your questions in order,

No I did not skip over that, rather I explained it. Can you see how?

No you have not got it right, I do not view any type of violence as an atrocity. For example, violence is used to kill animals for food, and I personally do not see that as an atrocity. Tasering a person who is threatening police with a firearm is an act of violence according to the definition of the word but that is not an atrocity either.

I don't think it is me who is silly if you think the holocaust involved America killing people.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ May 04 2011,16:44)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 04 2011,15:01) Quote (Stu @ May 02 2011,22:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2011,02:20) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2011,12:38) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2011,06:40) Well, now we see the root cause of your waywardness you believe that no one should be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour. We should allow people to do whatever they feel like doing, right? How do we “see” that? You should address your concerns to christians.  It is they who believe you can abdicate responsibility for your wrongdoing by believing in a fantasy story about an ancient human sacrifice. I don't see muslims taking very much responsibility for the atrocities committed in the name of allah, either.  Walking away from that abomination of a religion would stop islamist violence it in its tracks, but you can't even organise for that to happen because you are too busy “submitting” to things that aren't really there. Stuart Isn't it your belief that atrocities can only be attributed to the person commiting the atrocity? Yes, but please tell me what that has to do with the point I made. Stuart You were blaming a religion and not a person, the religion does not say to commit atrocities and I'm not even sure what you are calling an atrocity? The only atrocity ever commited is the killing of innocent people which is commited by most military in acts of war and yes intentional killing of the innocent is an atrocity but the Quran forbids such acts. Had this conversation with you already.  If a muslim feels he has been oppressed for his RELIGION then the koran mandates the killing of the alleged oppressor. In case you had (conveniently?) forgotten, here are the sura: 2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:190 is quite devious in its apparent call for you not to begin hostilities.  Of course then whole thing depends on what constitutes “hostilities” in the schoolyard argument about what constitutes persecution. Are muslims above endless tedious arguments about who started it and therefore who was hostile to whom first?  Hundreds of years of extreme antagonism against Jews in Palestine, to take just one of many examples, says they are not above provoking the fight.  Of course, according to you these are not real muslims, and yet their violence is exactly what is entirely allowed by the koran if you feel the mere presence of Jews constitutes persecution, which appears to be the case. The Religion of Extreme Prejudice is how it plays out.  Maybe you are the only muslim on the planet.  Even the prophet of your nasty religion took the sword to conquer Arabia.  How come that happened if you are not allowed to begin hostilities.  What a bunch of hypocrites. Stuart[/quote] Allah loveth not aggressors. Did you just skip over that? So, let me get this right to you any type of violence is an atrocity? You think the holocaust should have just been allowed or was America just in seeking to kill all the oppressors? You're quite silly.[/quote] To answer your questions in order, No I did not skip over that, rather I explained it.  Can you see how? No you have not got it right, I do not view any type of violence as an atrocity.  For example, violence is used to kill animals for food, and I personally do not see that as an atrocity.  Tasering a person who is threatening police with a firearm is an act of violence according to the definition of the word but that is not an atrocity either. I don't think it is me who is silly if you think the holocaust involved America killing people. Stuart

The holocaust did involve Americans killing Germans for Germans killing Jews and others.

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 06 2011,08:45)

The holocaust did involve Americans killing Germans for Germans killing Jews and others.

I think whatever tiny sliver of credibility that the most generous person could have considered you still had has vanished with that bizarre statement.

Stuart

[TimothyVI]

I think we have to give him a break Stu.
Bod has the holocaust and the atrocities committed against the Jews confused with the second world war.

The holocaust was the genecide that helped to bring about that war. The Americans killed no one in the holocaust.

Tim

[bodhitharta]

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 07 2011,06:22)

I think we have to give him a break Stu. Bod has the holocaust and the atrocities committed against the Jews confused with the second world war. The holocaust was the genecide that helped to bring about that war. The Americans killed no one in the holocaust. Tim

My point was that Americans killed the Opressive murderous germans led by Hitler of that day who were commiting genocide i.e. The Holocaust.

And no there is no confusion at all as I was talking about the invasion of Germany during the policies of the Holocaust.

[Stu]

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 07 2011,06:22)

I think we have to give him a break Stu.

I agree.

A long break.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ May 07 2011,09:05)

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 07 2011,06:22) I think we have to give him a break Stu. I agree. A long break. Stuart

Obviously you did not understand what I was saying, as usual or you did understand but wanted to convolute the idea to avoid the point.

[shimmer]

Topic: Christians and muslims believe the same thing, God saves

So which one of you is the Christian, and which one is the Muslim=P

[shimmer]

Bod, if you have some time can you read this and give me your opinion on any difference in what Muslims believe, thanks. Its here:

http://kingdomready.org/blog….iptures

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ May 07 2011,23:42)

Bod, if you have some time can you read this and give me your opinion on any difference in what Muslims believe, thanks. Its here: http://kingdomready.org/blog….iptures

Excellent article but I still believe it is all the same because The Quran says that all that God has sent has been divine agency thereby leaving no one without excuse. Moses was told by God that he would be a god unto Pharaoh, Jesus said that to whom the word of God came they were called gods and the Holy Spirit within a person is the divine agency in that person.

I never disputed the divine agency of Jesus nor does any Muslim. Islam simply states that God is always sending signs and messengers and agents of His will and ultimately it is up to the individual to be determined to please God and it is that determination to please God that is the path of salvation.

[shimmer]

Bod, I copied the following from the topic in believers place on monotheism.

This made me think of Islam. What is the fine line between this type of Christian belief and Islam? Well, the thing is, the deception. We believe the Bible and all it says about the Son. Muslims believe the Bible is corrupt and God has no Son and follow the Quran so they are denying the Father and Son…. 1st John 2:22… “He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.”
(not their fault if its all they know…. unless they were a believer in Christ, who knew the Bible and went on to the Quran and chose to deny the Lord)….2nd Peter 2:1…  “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them.”

Bod, you need to go back to scripture only, if you havent already,

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ May 08 2011,20:15)

Bod, I copied the following from the topic in believers place on monotheism. This made me think of Islam. What is the fine line between this type of Christian belief and Islam? Well, the thing is, the deception. We believe the Bible and all it says about the Son. Muslims believe the Bible is corrupt and God has no Son and follow the Quran so they are denying the Father and Son…. 1st John 2:22… “He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” (not their fault if its all they know…. unless they were a believer in Christ, who knew the Bible and went on to the Quran and chose to deny the Lord)….2nd Peter 2:1…  “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them.” Bod, you need to go back to scripture only, if you havent already,

This does not mean what it seems to mean that scripture is talking about Denying God(Father) and the servant(Son) of God. If you deny the servant you deny God. Here is proof:

1 Samuel 8:7 (King James Version)

7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

So those rejecting Jesus were rejecting God. The matter seems to confuse most when the terms Father and Son is used but keep in mind All of Israel was called the son of God in that sense but we know for a fact it simply means servant.

We also know that Islam does not deny God Almighty nor His servant Jesus.

Also once again:

I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2 Samuel 7:13-15

This term simply is meaning God and HIS chosen Servant. We already know God is a Spirit and he does not need to procreate like those of the flesh. God is our Creator and we are to be Submissive servants to His will on earth as those servants are to Him in Heaven, see:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:5-7

Now aren't these angels simply obedient servants?

[shimmer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 09 2011,05:15)

Also once again: I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 2 Samuel 7:13-15 This term simply is meaning God and HIS chosen Servant. We already know God is a Spirit and he does not need to procreate like those of the flesh. God is our Creator and we are to be Submissive servants to His will on earth as those servants are to Him in Heaven, see: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:5-7 Now aren't these angels simply obedient servants?

<>
World English Bible

1 God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds. 3 His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become so much better than the angels, as he has inherited a more excellent name than they have.

[shimmer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 09 2011,05:15)

This does not mean what it seems to mean that scripture is talking about Denying God(Father) and the servant(Son) of God. If you deny the servant you deny God. Here is proof: 1 Samuel 8:7 (King James Version) 7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. So those rejecting Jesus were rejecting God. The matter seems to confuse most when the terms Father and Son is used but keep in mind All of Israel was called the son of God in that sense but we know for a fact it simply means servant. We also know that Islam does not deny God Almighty nor His servant Jesus.

Bod,

“This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew

You have read it and studied it, yet you denied it.
Because you pick and choose what to believe the the words of Jesus.
You hold the words of the Quran higher than the words of Jesus!

“Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.” (1st Corin 8:6

If there is only one Lord, then who is your Lord?

[shimmer]

Who is your Master and Lord? You cannot have two Masters. They are saying two different things.
So who is it, Jesus or Mohammad?

[Author]

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