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It depends what you are supposed to be obeying them about Stuart.
There is something a bit similar in the Bible.
You know the ones:1 Timothy 2:12
But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.1 Corin 14:35
let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to chatter in the assembly.1 Tim 2:11
Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.Admonosh and scourge?
That was in regard by the way to this;
Quote (Stu @ April 29 2011,01:17) karmarie Don't mean to butt in, but just curious about this. BD you might like to answer as well. Is islam correct about this?
Sura 4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them
Not sure how good either of you are at Arabic, but perhaps BD could comment on the translation of the Arabic word that leads to the English “admonish”.
Stuart
Quote (karmarie @ April 28 2011,22:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 26 2011,15:05) Quote (karmarie @ April 26 2011,10:08) OK. Thanks for that Bod. So are you still a Muslim? Do you still believe that Christians and Muslims believe the same thing?
(Title of the thread).
Muslims and Christians believe that submission in God is the way to Salvation.
Hi Bod.Going back on some earlier posts and points.
Jesus did submit to God.
Jesus was an example for us.
Gods will not our own.Some put Jesus in the place of God. Jesus never told them to actually do that.
That is where Islam is correct.
But there are places where it is not correct
Jesus is the Son of God because the bible tells us.Example the Parable of the Vinedressers
“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.
Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
What do you think of this?
I agree with this and so does Islam but the context of the term son is different in Judaism than it is in Christianity the Jews didn't call God “Father” in the literal sense as they also called themselves Sons of Abraham or Sons of David it is a term that loses its intent in Christianity:The fact is a son is a servant look:
King James Version
Acts 3:25 – Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.Acts 3:26 – Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
New King James Version
Acts 3:25 – You are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.Acts 3:26 – To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.
You see? servant and son has the same meaning in hebrew except where someone is physically a son. God is a Spirit and HE must be SERVED in spirit and truth.
In Islam there simply is no confusion no need to use the term “Son” for all fall short of the glory of God did not Jesus say this even about himself saying the Father is greater than I?
Quote (Stu @ April 28 2011,22:17) karmarie Don't mean to butt in, but just curious about this. BD you might like to answer as well. Is islam correct about this?
Sura 4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them
Not sure how good either of you are at Arabic, but perhaps BD could comment on the translation of the Arabic word that leads to the English “admonish”.
Stuart
STU,Did you also pick up on the word “Banish” don't we think of the word banish as to mean permanent removal? Well do you think that verse is saying never sleep with them again or just don't share your bed with them during a serious disagreement?
What you fail to understand is that the verse is saying before you can chastise a woman you should be able to resist even sleeping with her this would seldom happen but if it did becase the woman was doing something that drastic like being too lustful with other men or in some other way dangerous to the family life than yes she should be scourged which may save your family and in some cases herself.
Do you think corporal punishment is ever justified?
Quote (bodhitharta @ April 29 2011,11:06) Quote (karmarie @ April 28 2011,22:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 26 2011,15:05) Quote (karmarie @ April 26 2011,10:08) OK. Thanks for that Bod. So are you still a Muslim? Do you still believe that Christians and Muslims believe the same thing?
(Title of the thread).
Muslims and Christians believe that submission in God is the way to Salvation.
Hi Bod.Going back on some earlier posts and points.
Jesus did submit to God.
Jesus was an example for us.
Gods will not our own.Some put Jesus in the place of God. Jesus never told them to actually do that.
That is where Islam is correct.
But there are places where it is not correct
Jesus is the Son of God because the bible tells us.Example the Parable of the Vinedressers
“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.
Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
What do you think of this?
I agree with this and so does Islam but the context of the term son is different in Judaism than it is in Christianity the Jews didn't call God “Father” in the literal sense as they also called themselves Sons of Abraham or Sons of David it is a term that loses its intent in Christianity:The fact is a son is a servant look:
King James Version
Acts 3:25 – Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.Acts 3:26 – Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
New King James Version
Acts 3:25 – You are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.Acts 3:26 – To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.
You see? servant and son has the same meaning in hebrew except where someone is physically a son. God is a Spirit and HE must be SERVED in spirit and truth.
In Islam there simply is no confusion no need to use the term “Son” for all fall short of the glory of God did not Jesus say this even about himself saying the Father is greater than I?
Bod, I don't have much time but, I believe there was a big difference in Jesus, I believe Jesus was more than just some ordinary person because he was sinless, he was the perfect one, the words he spoke were not his own but him who sent him, which was the Almighty God, and they hated the words he spoke so much that they killed him.Wish I had more time but have to go.
Have you ever read the Sheppard of Hermas?
Can be read here,
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html
The Shepherd of Hermas (Greek: Ποιμήν του Ερμά; Hebrew: רועה הרמס; sometimes just called The Shepherd) is a Christian literary work of the second century, considered a valuable book by many Christians, and considered canonical scripture by some of the early Church fathers – The Shepherd had great authority in the second and third centuries. Along with the Apocrypha, it was bound with in the Codex Sinaiticus, and it was listed between the Acts of the Apostles and the Acts of Paul in the stichometrical list of the Codex Claromontanus.
It was one of the most popular books if not THE most popular book of the early Church.
Quote (bodhitharta @ April 29 2011,08:13) STU, Did you also pick up on the word “Banish” don't we think of the word banish as to mean permanent removal? Well do you think that verse is saying never sleep with them again or just don't share your bed with them during a serious disagreement?
What you fail to understand is that the verse is saying before you can chastise a woman you should be able to resist even sleeping with her this would seldom happen but if it did becase the woman was doing something that drastic like being too lustful with other men or in some other way dangerous to the family life than yes she should be scourged which may save your family and in some cases herself.
Do you think corporal punishment is ever justified?
No, corporal punishment is the last bastion of the ignorant and inarticulate.I take it that since you have not addressed the questions of the translations of the Arabic words that lead to “scourge” and “admonish” you have no response to the violent sexism of your religious book.
If you cannot justify the supposed opinions of this illiterate and ignorant pedophile prophet of yours who took up a sword against Arabia and apparently was also an advocate of violence against women then I think you should abandon this abomination of a religion and at least try to live in the 19th or 20th Century, which is where the rest of your views, for example on creationism, rightly reside.
Scourge?
Imprisonment for men who commit violent crimes against women?
Or maybe you think this scourging was OK in the context of Dark Age Arabia, but is no longer acceptable. If so, what enduring principles DOES your religion contain?
Mindless submission to Imaginary Friends I suppose.
Stuart
Quote (karmarie @ April 28 2011,22:30) It depends what you are supposed to be obeying them about Stuart. There is something a bit similar in the Bible. I'm sure you know the ones.
1 Timothy 2:12
But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.1 Corin 14:35
let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to chatter in the assembly.1 Tim 2:11
Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.Admonosh and scourge?
I guess Saul of Tarsus was a sexist too. But at least he was not advocating scourging for women. Instead he endorsed death for homosexuals and adulterers. There is a fine line between patronising women and enslaving them to the ancient reproductive cycle and submission to men as the Catholics are keen to do, and controlling women with violence.Perhaps christianity sits on one side of that fine line and islam on the other. It is still a common event in islamic communities for violence to be exacted against young women by their brothers for bringing shame through some perceived sexual indiscretion. This is done in the name of allah, but BD should be telling you these are not real muslims because islam is the Religion of Peace, but that is not the reality, it is a sickly ironic description.
I assume you do not go along with the concept of women “obeying” their husbands. Isn't a spousal relationship about sharing together?
But then again, your religion appears to follow a god that demands love on pain of punishment, so perhaps you would be better to go with your own decent moral instincts than follow the book of mythology that is immoral.
Stuart
Stuart,
Quote:
Jesus and women
From the beginning of the early Christian church, starting with Jesus, women were important members of the movement. The examples of the manner of Jesus reveal his attitudes toward women and show repeatedly how he liberated and affirmed women. Both complementarians and egalitarians see Jesus as treating women with compassion, grace and dignity. The gospels of the New Testament, especially Luke, often mention Jesus speaking to or helping women publicly and openly, contrary to the social norms of the time. He reached out to the marginalized in his society and thus, his appeal was great. Martha's sister Mary sat at Jesus' feet being taught, a privilege reserved for men in Judaism. Jesus had female followers who were his sponsors,[Lu 8:1-3] and he stopped to express concern for the women of Jerusalem on his way to be crucified,[Lu 23:26-31] while Mary Magdalene is recorded to be the first person to have the privilege of seeing Jesus after resurrection.[Mk 16:9]
From the early patristic age, the offices of teacher and sacramental minister were reserved for men throughout most of the church in the East and West.[12] Tertullian, the 2nd century Latin father, wrote that “It is not permitted to a woman to speak in church. Neither may she teach, baptize, offer, nor claim for herself any function proper to a man, least of all the sacerdotal office” (“On the Veiling of Virgins”).
Origen (AD 185-254) stated that,
Even if it is granted to a woman to show the sign of prophecy, she is nevertheless not permitted to speak in an assembly. When Miriam the prophetess spoke, she was leading a choir of women … For [as Paul declares] “I do not permit a woman to teach,” and even less “to tell a man what to do.”
Stuart,
Matt4:19
Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left [their] nets, and followed him.Matt 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Quote (karmarie @ April 29 2011,10:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 29 2011,11:06) Quote (karmarie @ April 28 2011,22:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 26 2011,15:05) Quote (karmarie @ April 26 2011,10:08) OK. Thanks for that Bod. So are you still a Muslim? Do you still believe that Christians and Muslims believe the same thing?
(Title of the thread).
Muslims and Christians believe that submission in God is the way to Salvation.
Hi Bod.Going back on some earlier posts and points.
Jesus did submit to God.
Jesus was an example for us.
Gods will not our own.Some put Jesus in the place of God. Jesus never told them to actually do that.
That is where Islam is correct.
But there are places where it is not correct
Jesus is the Son of God because the bible tells us.Example the Parable of the Vinedressers
“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.
Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
What do you think of this?
I agree with this and so does Islam but the context of the term son is different in Judaism than it is in Christianity the Jews didn't call God “Father” in the literal sense as they also called themselves Sons of Abraham or Sons of David it is a term that loses its intent in Christianity:The fact is a son is a servant look:
King James Version
Acts 3:25 – Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.Acts 3:26 – Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
New King James Version
Acts 3:25 – You are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.Acts 3:26 – To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.
You see? servant and son has the same meaning in hebrew except where someone is physically a son. God is a Spirit and HE must be SERVED in spirit and truth.
In Islam there simply is no confusion no need to use the term “Son” for all fall short of the glory of God did not Jesus say this even about himself saying the Father is greater than I?
Bod, I don't have much time but, I believe there was a big difference in Jesus, I believe Jesus was more than just some ordinary person because he was sinless, he was the perfect one, the words he spoke were not his own but him who sent him, which was the Almighty God, and they hated the words he spoke so much that they killed him.Wish I had more time but have to go.
Have you ever read the Sheppard of Hermas?
I am not taking anything away from Jesus wouldm't being a sinless servant make for a perfect Servant?Quote (Stu @ April 29 2011,11:45) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 29 2011,08:13) STU, Did you also pick up on the word “Banish” don't we think of the word banish as to mean permanent removal? Well do you think that verse is saying never sleep with them again or just don't share your bed with them during a serious disagreement?
What you fail to understand is that the verse is saying before you can chastise a woman you should be able to resist even sleeping with her this would seldom happen but if it did becase the woman was doing something that drastic like being too lustful with other men or in some other way dangerous to the family life than yes she should be scourged which may save your family and in some cases herself.
Do you think corporal punishment is ever justified?
No, corporal punishment is the last bastion of the ignorant and inarticulate.I take it that since you have not addressed the questions of the translations of the Arabic words that lead to “scourge” and “admonish” you have no response to the violent sexism of your religious book.
If you cannot justify the supposed opinions of this illiterate and ignorant pedophile prophet of yours who took up a sword against Arabia and apparently was also an advocate of violence against women then I think you should abandon this abomination of a religion and at least try to live in the 19th or 20th Century, which is where the rest of your views, for example on creationism, rightly reside.
Scourge?
Imprisonment for men who commit violent crimes against women?
Or maybe you think this scourging was OK in the context of Dark Age Arabia, but is no longer acceptable. If so, what enduring principles DOES your religion contain?
Mindless submission to Imaginary Friends I suppose.
Stuart
Well, now we see the root cause of your waywardness you believe that no one should be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour. We should allow people to do whatever they feel like doing, right?STU,
The funny thing is even animals admonish and scourge others in a pack, I guess you don't believe even in Nature
Quote (bodhitharta @ April 30 2011,10:35) Quote (Stu @ April 29 2011,11:45) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 29 2011,08:13) STU, Did you also pick up on the word “Banish” don't we think of the word banish as to mean permanent removal? Well do you think that verse is saying never sleep with them again or just don't share your bed with them during a serious disagreement?
What you fail to understand is that the verse is saying before you can chastise a woman you should be able to resist even sleeping with her this would seldom happen but if it did becase the woman was doing something that drastic like being too lustful with other men or in some other way dangerous to the family life than yes she should be scourged which may save your family and in some cases herself.
Do you think corporal punishment is ever justified?
No, corporal punishment is the last bastion of the ignorant and inarticulate.I take it that since you have not addressed the questions of the translations of the Arabic words that lead to “scourge” and “admonish” you have no response to the violent sexism of your religious book.
If you cannot justify the supposed opinions of this illiterate and ignorant pedophile prophet of yours who took up a sword against Arabia and apparently was also an advocate of violence against women then I think you should abandon this abomination of a religion and at least try to live in the 19th or 20th Century, which is where the rest of your views, for example on creationism, rightly reside.
Scourge?
Imprisonment for men who commit violent crimes against women?
Or maybe you think this scourging was OK in the context of Dark Age Arabia, but is no longer acceptable. If so, what enduring principles DOES your religion contain?
Mindless submission to Imaginary Friends I suppose.
Stuart
Well, now we see the root cause of your waywardness you believe that no one should be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour. We should allow people to do whatever they feel like doing, right?
How do we “see” that?You should address your concerns to christians. It is they who believe you can abdicate responsibility for your wrongdoing by believing in a fantasy story about an ancient human sacrifice.
I don't see muslims taking very much responsibility for the atrocities committed in the name of allah, either. Walking away from that abomination of a religion would stop islamist violence it in its tracks, but you can't even organise for that to happen because you are too busy “submitting” to things that aren't really there.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 30 2011,15:19) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 30 2011,10:35) Quote (Stu @ April 29 2011,11:45) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 29 2011,08:13) STU, Did you also pick up on the word “Banish” don't we think of the word banish as to mean permanent removal? Well do you think that verse is saying never sleep with them again or just don't share your bed with them during a serious disagreement?
What you fail to understand is that the verse is saying before you can chastise a woman you should be able to resist even sleeping with her this would seldom happen but if it did becase the woman was doing something that drastic like being too lustful with other men or in some other way dangerous to the family life than yes she should be scourged which may save your family and in some cases herself.
Do you think corporal punishment is ever justified?
No, corporal punishment is the last bastion of the ignorant and inarticulate.I take it that since you have not addressed the questions of the translations of the Arabic words that lead to “scourge” and “admonish” you have no response to the violent sexism of your religious book.
If you cannot justify the supposed opinions of this illiterate and ignorant pedophile prophet of yours who took up a sword against Arabia and apparently was also an advocate of violence against women then I think you should abandon this abomination of a religion and at least try to live in the 19th or 20th Century, which is where the rest of your views, for example on creationism, rightly reside.
Scourge?
Imprisonment for men who commit violent crimes against women?
Or maybe you think this scourging was OK in the context of Dark Age Arabia, but is no longer acceptable. If so, what enduring principles DOES your religion contain?
Mindless submission to Imaginary Friends I suppose.
Stuart
Well, now we see the root cause of your waywardness you believe that no one should be held accountable for unacceptable behaviour. We should allow people to do whatever they feel like doing, right?
How do we “see” that?You should address your concerns to christians. It is they who believe you can abdicate responsibility for your wrongdoing by believing in a fantasy story about an ancient human sacrifice.
I don't see muslims taking very much responsibility for the atrocities committed in the name of allah, either. Walking away from that abomination of a religion would stop islamist violence it in its tracks, but you can't even organise for that to happen because you are too busy “submitting” to things that aren't really there.
Stuart
Isn't it your belief that atrocities can only be attributed to the person commiting the atrocity?Quote (Stu @ April 30 2011,01:21) karmarie You appear to have omitted the part about the unfortunate family values of Jesus.
Stuart
Stuart, what were those?Quote (bodhitharta @ April 30 2011,11:32) I am not taking anything away from Jesus wouldm't being a sinless servant make for a perfect Servant?
Bod, Jesus said to follow him, not someone else. A woman should follow her husband if he is a believer. But a man should follow Christ only who is the head. And God is the head of Christ.
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