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Just curious to get everyone's view on Christian self defense. especially with respect to guns. As christians can we own them? can we carry them for self defense in our ever increasing violent world? or is this a lack of faith? Would appreciate any response.
Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 24 2005,18:06) Just curious to get everyone's view on Christian self defense. especially with respect to guns. As christians can we own them? can we carry them for self defense in our ever increasing violent world? or is this a lack of faith? Would appreciate any response.
Hi woutlaw,Jesus said turn the other cheek. If they ask for you shirt give them you coat. We should be humble and peaceful. And full of love. The Love of God conquers all.
A true story: I once work at a used car lot. The owner was a cheat selling covered up junk.
Well one morning when I was opening the place this man charged at me saying “you sold my wife that piece of junk” The Holy Spirit was with me so with a calm voice I said “can I help you” He was like boiling water in a cheap pot when you turn the fire off the water simmers quickly. He look right into my eyes and said with a calm voice the car my wife bought is junk. I said I didn't sell your wife the car I just do the mechanic work, but had someone ask I would have told them that the car was junk. And with that he said (again witha calm voice) ok I'll come back. If he came back I don't know.
So if your not in the Spirit then be careful but protect yourself. If your in the Spirit just sit back and open your mouth the Holy Spirit will do the talking.
Hope this Helps!
I tend to just post articles where I think they may be of interest.
The following link is along the same lines as this topic.
Quote Just curious to get everyone's view on Christian self defense. especially with respect to guns. As christians can we own them? can we carry them for self defense in our ever increasing violent world? or is this a lack of faith? Would appreciate any response. Didn't Jesus say something like: All who take the gun willl die by the gun?
It's true that he said to bring some swords, but when 3 were found, didn't he say: It's enough. Enough for what? Enough for him to provide the lesson he did, including the words: 'Return your [gun] to it's place. All who take up the [gun] will perish by the gun.'
Wouldn't it make more sense to beat your gun into a plowshare? Vengence is Jehovah's. He will repay, the scripture says. Of course, this doesn't mean we act wrecklessly, or neglectfully with our lives. We take precautions with our lives, because life is sacred. Taking a life or carrying an instrument designed to take a life demands deep consideration of the scriptures. No where does the Bible say: “Guns are bad.”
Obviously, these are just incoherent ramblings. But I was just wanting to introduce some new older topics for a change.david.
Hi Woutlaw,
I don't really have the answer, but I know that Christ and his disciples carried only spirtual weapons and there lives were dangerous, yet they escaped many a life threating situation with God's/angels help. We are also told to lay our lives down for the brethren, so death has no power over us. It seems to me on the outset that the only reason to carry a gun is the fear of death or the harm that men can bring. Yet scripture tells us to fear God only.
However that said, it is one thing to not fear death for yourself, but quite another thing when it comes to our families. What man wouldn't protect his own child?
Like I said I don't have the answer, but I gave you my thoughts anyway.
I personally have never carried a gun, but I live in a very safe country. Even the police here do not carry guns. They keep them in their cars in case they need them. 10 years ago they didn't even have guns in their cars.
Personally I don't think a gun is a good idea, but that is easy for me to say.
I think a great weapon we can carry is intuition. Often when we walk into bad things, we are pre-warned with a bad feeling. When we ignore that feeling we seem to walk into trouble. Prevention is better than cure as the saying goes.
David and T8,
I appreciate your responses fellas. Despite what you may hear, America is a very very violent country. Some of the inner cities here are like war zones especially St. Louis. It's so bad here that 2 years ago the State of Missouri passed a concealed carry law that allows law abiding citizens firearms on their personal body if they get a permit. It also allows law abiding citizens to carry them in their cars. I do carry but not so much for myself. I have a lovely wife and 5 kids. I worry more about them. I've been told by some that I don't even have a right to defend my home or my family! I guess I'll continue to pray and seek God's guidance
Gods blessings
I have to admit that this for me is a hard question. I also wonder about war. If we were enlisted to fight against an enemy (like the Nazis) would God allow or want us to kill the enemy. Was it God's will that people went to war and ended the reign of terror that the Nazis brought? If so, then it seems that God allows killing in certain circumstances, just as he did during Old Testament times.
Or are we to remain seperate to all these things and not participate?
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 31 2006,18:53) I have to admit that this for me is a hard question. I also wonder about war. If we were enlisted to fight against an enemy (like the Nazis) would God allow or want us to kill the enemy. Was it God's will that people went to war and ended the reign of terror that the Nazis brought? If so, then it seems that God allows killing in certain circumstances, just as he did during Old Testament times. Or are we to remain seperate to all these things and not participate?
I believe that we are to be seperate from the sin. If I was drafted into the military, I would go, but in a non-combative position, such as a chaplain or something.Quote (Sultan @ Feb. 02 2006,02:56) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 31 2006,18:53) I have to admit that this for me is a hard question. I also wonder about war. If we were enlisted to fight against an enemy (like the Nazis) would God allow or want us to kill the enemy. Was it God's will that people went to war and ended the reign of terror that the Nazis brought? If so, then it seems that God allows killing in certain circumstances, just as he did during Old Testament times. Or are we to remain seperate to all these things and not participate?
I believe that we are to be seperate from the sin. If I was drafted into the military, I would go, but in a non-combative position, such as a chaplain or something.
“without cause” I believe if the time comes we will know what to do. Just as the Spirit will give us what to say.Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Quote I have to admit that this for me is a hard question. I also wonder about war. If we were enlisted to fight against an enemy (like the Nazis) would God allow or want us to kill the enemy. Was it God's will that people went to war and ended the reign of terror that the Nazis brought? If so, then it seems that God allows killing in certain circumstances, just as he did during Old Testament times. T8, Jesus followers are to be “no part of the world.” The early Christians didn't take part in wars.
Back then, in the days of Israel, things were a little different. If a group were to fight the nazis by walking around them for seven days with jars and horns and win the battle, then sure, fine. But this is not how it is today.
And too, imagine the dreadful situation if Christ’s followers were to fight in opposing armies, trying to kill one another. The governemnts on both sides always claim to be right, to have God on their side. Really, God isn't on any side. He allows governments to rule for the wellfare of all, but doesn't actively support one today.Jehovah directed ancient Israel to use warfare to take possession of the land that he himself designated as their inheritance and to execute people whose depraved practices and defiance of the true God caused Jehovah to view them as being no longer fit to live. (Deut. 7:1, 2, 5; 9:5; Lev. 18:24, 25)
Nevertheless, mercy was shown to Rahab and to the Gibeonites because they demonstrated faith in Jehovah. (Josh. 2:9-13; 9:24-27) In the Law covenant God laid down rules for warfare that he would approve, stipulating exemptions and the manner in which this warfare was to be carried out. Such were truly holy wars of Jehovah. That is not true of the carnal warfare of any nation today.According to the Bible, Israel fought other battles under God’s direction, usually to repel unprovoked enemy threats. When the nation obeyed Jehovah, the wars it fought ended favorably. (Exodus 34:24; 2 Samuel 5:17-25) But disaster usually resulted when Israel dared to do battle contrary to divine counsel. Consider the case of King Jeroboam. Ignoring a direct prophetic warning, he dispatched his huge army in civil war against Judah. When the mayhem finally ended, 500,000 of Jeroboam’s soldiers were dead. (2 Chronicles 13:12-18) Even faithful King Josiah once picked a battle that was not his. The rash decision cost him his life.—2 Chronicles 35:20-24.
What do these events show? That in ancient Israel, the decision to make war rested with God. (Deuteronomy 32:35, 43) He had his people fight for specific purposes. However, these purposes were long ago accomplished. Furthermore, Jehovah foretold that those who serve him “in the final part of the days” would “beat their swords into plowshares” and not “learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:2-4) Clearly, Biblical wars do not justify modern-day conflicts, none of which are fought under God’s direction or at his command.
With the establishing of the Christian congregation, a new situation came into existence. Christians are not under the Mosaic Law. Christ’s followers were to make disciples of people of all nations; so worshipers of the true God would in time be found in all those nations. However, what is the motive of those nations when they go to war? Is it to carry out the will of the Creator of all the earth or is it to further some nationalistic interest? If true Christians in one nation were to go to war against another nation, they would be fighting against fellow believers, against people who prayed for help to the same God that they did. Appropriately, Christ directed his followers to lay down the sword. (Matt. 26:52) He himself, glorified in the heavens, would henceforth carry out the execution of those who showed defiance of the true God and His will.—2 Thess. 1:6-8; Rev. 19:11-21.
Summing up,
False religion teaches that it is all right to kill others in time of war. Jesus said that God’s friends would have love among themselves. We do not kill people we love. (John 13:35) It is even wrong for us to kill bad people. When the enemies of Jesus came to arrest him, he did not let his disciples fight to protect him.—Matthew 26:51, 52.In 'The Early Church and the World', one historian tells us that “up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least [161-180 C.E.], no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.”
In 'The New World’s Foundations in the Old', another says: “The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers.”
With the apostasy, this of course changed, and so called Christians became part of the world and began going to war.
Quote David and T8,
I appreciate your responses fellas. Despite what you may hear, America is a very very violent country. Some of the inner cities here are like war zones especially St. Louis. It's so bad here that 2 years ago the State of Missouri passed a concealed carry law that allows law abiding citizens firearms on their personal body if they get a permit. It also allows law abiding citizens to carry them in their cars. I do carry but not so much for myself. I have a lovely wife and 5 kids. I worry more about them. I've been told by some that I don't even have a right to defend my home or my family! I guess I'll continue to pray and seek God's guidance
Hey Woutlaw, I realize St. Louis is rough. It is actually possibly my least favorite city and the one I felt the least comfortable in. I wasn't there long. And I realized a lot of people in the States carry guns. I know that things aren't the same everywhere. In some places in the States, when we go from door to door, we go in groups of five, one stays at the gate, one at the steps and two talk to the person at the door. Where I live, it's nothing like that, although I do live in the city in Canada that has the most crime and most murders per capita. But again, that's the other side of the city.
Take reasonable precautions. It's true, this is a hard issue.I lived in Colombia for nearly 2 years and faced the very real threat of being kidnapped, as well as being hit by crossfire in a few gun battles that I happened to be present at. Once I was in Bogota, when the guerrilla decided to plant 100 bombs in random locations. I was often followed around Bogota even when I went out to just get a coffee. I was also arrested twice by soldiers for taking photos, but thankfully they were government forces, not guerilla. Even the bus I regularly took was blown up by a home made bomb.
Once I decided to swim in a pool in a small town hotel outside Bogota, I paid my money and didn't realise that I was swimming in the same pool as guerilla and guerilla sympathisers. I was told of their identity later when my fiance's dad came to pick me up. He was horrified.
After Colombia, I went to the USA and Canada on the way back to New Zealand. I found the USA and Canada to be very safe, but then I am comparing it with Colombia.
Once a guy in St Louis came up to me and said “are you that guy from New Zealand”, I said yes I am from there. How did you know? He said that he heard me talking to a lady the day before on a train and knew from our conversation. I guess my accent stood out from the other conversations. He introduced me to his wife and they were very friendly. Most people I met there were very friendly to me, and yes I was approached by people for money, but I usually ended up talking to them about other things. I guess that I am just ignorant of what really goes on. When you come from the outside, you only see the surface. When you live in a place you see the heart.
When I left New Zealand originally, my perception of the USA was a place of crime and too many guns. So I guess judgment on such things is relative. Compared to New Zealand it is dangerous, but compared to Colombia it is relatively safe.
The whole time I was in Colombia and the USA, I never had one hassle and I never even thought about carrying a gun. In New Zealand it is not an option and I have taken that attitude with me everywhere I have been and lived.
Now I am married and we have a child, I guess if I ever went back to Colombia, I would have a different attitude. Even then however a gun wouldn't be something I would consider personally.
I recently was a part of a Bible study on this topic. The male leader said that even if his wife was being raped and killed in front of him, he wouldn't resort to violence to protect her. When I asked why he said that he would have to believe she would rest in the Lord if she was killed, but that he had to turn the other cheek.
Say WHAT?!?!?! Is this really what the Lord meant? That we should not protect our family? What if our daughter's were being raped, wouldn't you try and stop it.
What about the story in the bible about the women calling out in the country and there was no one to answer! I'm assuming if there was someone to answer – they would have stopped the rape! Am I wrong to believe this?
This has really made me lose some sleep.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2007,08:57) I recently was a part of a Bible study on this topic. The male leader said that even if his wife was being raped and killed in front of him, he wouldn't resort to violence to protect her. When I asked why he said that he would have to believe she would rest in the Lord if she was killed, but that he had to turn the other cheek. Say WHAT?!?!?! Is this really what the Lord meant? That we should not protect our family? What if our daughter's were being raped, wouldn't you try and stop it.
What about the story in the bible about the women calling out in the country and there was no one to answer! I'm assuming if there was someone to answer – they would have stopped the rape! Am I wrong to believe this?
This has really made me lose some sleep.
Hi All:By the command that we should turn the other cheek Jesus indicates that we should not avenge ourselves. Another scripture states: “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord, I will repay”.
I protect my family by first by teaching them the Word of God and then by praying for them. I cannot be with them every second of every day but I know that God can be with them. Of course, all of us who are Christians need to take common sense precautions. If we do not, we are asking for trouble.
We also have law enforcement which is available to protect all members of society. If I see someone committing a crime, I will call the police. I believe that the following scriptures show that law enforcement is ordained by God.
The KJV Strong's Version
Romans
13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God *: the powers that be are ordained of God.
13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid ; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.God Bless
Well, thanks brothers, but neither one of you answered my question.
If you walked in on a stranger raping your wife or daughter – would you intervene? Or watch and pray for them?
The reason I am asking these hypothetical questions is because it really bothers me that we are supposed to not defend our family or loved ones. Is that really what scripture teaches? What about the women “crying out” in the country? Isn't someone supposed to save her?
If someone broke into my house and started to rape my 8 year old daughter – am I not to use force to get him to leave my house? And if he attacks me – am I not to shoot him? “Self-defense”
These are real questions to hypothetical situations. I do have faith in God for protection, however, I'm wondering how much repsonsibility we have as Christians to protect?
Quote What about the women “crying out” in the country? Isn't someone supposed to save her? (Deuteronomy 22:23-27) ““In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, 24 YOU must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die, the girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city, and the man for the reason that he humiliated the wife of his fellowman. So you must clear away what is evil from your midst. 25 “If, however, it is in the field that the man found the girl who was engaged, and the man grabbed hold of her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her must also die by himself, 26 and to the girl you must do nothing. The girl has no sin deserving of death, because just as when a man rises up against his fellowman and indeed murders him, even a soul, so it is with this case. 27 For it was in the field that he found her. The girl who was engaged screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.”
It doesn't seem consistent that in a situation where you are screaming you would just do nothing.
Quote The male leader said that even if his wife was being raped and killed in front of him, he wouldn't resort to violence to protect her. Violence:
1. physical force: the use of physical force to injure somebody or damage something2. destructive force: extreme, destructive, or uncontrollable force, especially of natural events
3. fervor: intensity of feeling or expression
4. criminal law illegal force: the illegal use of unjustified force, or the intimidating effect created by the threat of this
The Bible says that Jehovah hates anyone loving violence. Violence is injuring someone, using extreme, destructive, or uncontrollable force.
The one raping your wife is certainly using violence. Jehovah hates violence.
Taking someone and pushing them off of your screaming wife is more than slightly different than pulling a gun and shooting him dead, taking a life, or beating him senseless in an uncontrolled use of destructive force.Quote And if he attacks me – am I not to shoot him? Choosing to take a life is no little thing. It seems to me, that if you have the gun, you don't need to shoot him. And if he is running, you don't need to shoot him, for that would be violence and no doubt motivated by wrong feelings.
Jehovah is the God of justice. All will be dealt with.
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