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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2006,06:25) Catholicism does not require this of sentient beings but they baptise babies
with
neither repentance
nor faith
necessary for salvation.Sorry but that is not going through the gate of Jesus Christ. Such is false baptism and irrelevant for salvation.
Baptism is important due to the original sin of Adam and Eve. That is why we baptise as soon as possible.Quote (david @ Aug. 19 2006,02:05) Quote 1. All three of you are human 2. All three of you think you are right.
3. All three of you think God is on your side.
To be honest with you David…I see no difference between the three of you.
Well for one Robyn, i would never kill you, or promote your death. You can't be so certain of the cardinal or the archbishop. I think that's a pretty big difference.
I think the fact that I am united with my brothers and realize that killing them would be the opposite of love, sets us quite far apart. They don't understand that to love your brother would mean you don't kill him.
If we do the math, we KNOW that one of them (the cardinal or the archbishop) MUST be wrong. “God is on our countries side. Kill them.”
“God is on Germany's side. Kill them.” Clearly, logically, God was not on both of their sides. Otherwise, God would be divided. I contend that God is on neither of their sides.As well, I don't wear funny hats. So, there are clearly some differences. You may not see them, but if you lined us up, even though not having met any of us, I guarantee you, you'll know which one of us I am.
I'm not strickly talking about killing in battle. I'm thinking about the 3 of you in general.1, You are human right?
2. The things you are typing in this thread….you think is correct..right?
3. You think God is on your side…Correct?
I rest my case.
Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 19 2006,07:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2006,06:25) Catholicism does not require this of sentient beings but they baptise babies
with
neither repentance
nor faith
necessary for salvation.Sorry but that is not going through the gate of Jesus Christ. Such is false baptism and irrelevant for salvation.
Baptism is important due to the original sin of Adam and Eve. That is why we baptise as soon as possible.
Hi Robyn,
Is baptism that urgent in view of 1 Cor 7.12f
” 12But to the rest (A)I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.13And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are (B)holy.”
If we baptise those who do not believe or repent is it effective? Such thinking involves magic and not faith surely?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2006,08:20) Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 19 2006,07:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2006,06:25) Catholicism does not require this of sentient beings but they baptise babies
with
neither repentance
nor faith
necessary for salvation.Sorry but that is not going through the gate of Jesus Christ. Such is false baptism and irrelevant for salvation.
Baptism is important due to the original sin of Adam and Eve. That is why we baptise as soon as possible.
Hi Robyn,
Is baptism that urgent in view of 1 Cor 7.12f
” 12But to the rest (A)I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.13And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are (B)holy.”
If we baptise those who do not believe or repent is it effective? Such thinking involves magic and not faith surely?
Hi Nick,Please show me where Gods word excludes Children?
Households where all baptized this includes Children.
Just because our heart is open to hear the word of the Lord doesn’t mean we do not have to be baptized.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, did hear: WHOSE HEART THE LORD OPENED TO ATTEND TO THOSE THINGS WHICH WERE SAID BY PAUL.
Act 16:15 And when SHE WAS BAPTIZED, AND HER HOUSEHOLD, she besought us, saying: If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there. And she constrained us.Every single person in the family was to be baptized. After all the sacrament is the fulfilling of circumcision.
Act 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance: and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 FOR THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO ALL THAT ARE FAR OFF, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call.*NOTICE THAT IT CLEARLY MENTIONS CHILDREN*
Luk 18:16 But Jesus, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me and FORBID THEM NOT: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Just as children were once circumsized as infants, they are now baptized as infants because the Kingdom of God, which is entered into through Baptism definitely includes them.
Circumcision which was done under the Old Law on the 8th day after a Child was born this was fulfilled by baptism.
Col 2:11 IN WHOM ALSO YOU ARE CIRCUMCISED WITH CIRCUMCISION NOT MADE BY HAND in despoiling of the body of the flesh: BUT IN THE CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST.
Col 2:12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM: IN WHOM ALSO YOU ARE RISEN AGAIN by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.Blessings
Hi SS,
Did not Jesus say about children in Mk 10.12
” 13(B)And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them.
14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; Âfor the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.15″Truly I say to you, (D)whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
16And He (E)took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands on them.”
So surely when children are able to come to him understanding the simple things about faith they are ready to enter. That does not include mewling puking infants who understand nothing but who are holy according to the faith of their parents as shown in 1Cor 7.
How many salvations are recorded in acts? !5? !7?
How many involve children? Possibly one
Acts 16.33
“33And he took them (A)that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.”
Is that strong evidence that infants should be baptised as if baptism was magic?
No.There is no justification in doing what is not commanded
because logic suggests we should
as logic and human wisdom is irrelevant folly to the God of the bibleHi SS,.
You quoted
“Act 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance: and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 FOR THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO ALL THAT ARE FAR OFF, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. “So only a catholic bible would have
“do penance”
rather than
” repent'
No matter the question arises can INFANTS EITHER DO PENANCE OR REPENT?And what is the promise?
Lk 11.9f
” 9″So I say to you, (E)ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.10″For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
11″Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12″Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13″(F)If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
The gift of the Holy Spirit which is still available to the children of God who call on their Father .
Robyn,
I hope you don't get offended by the brothers here. Don't get discouraged. It is just that all here know and understand and have studied the things that are why people should leave the catholic church.
If you asked me if you should leave, I would have to tell you yes. I know it is hard to face it, but you have to not listen with your heart but with your head on this matter. You have to go according to the Word of God and not that of men. The catholic church is filled with traditions and rituals that God hates with a passion. He punished Israel often for doing such things. You have to do what God's Word says and not the words of men. There is only one true faith our there and that is the Word of God.
Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Aug. 20 2006,03:29) Act 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance: and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Penance?Does that mean pay money to the Roman Catholic church for the forgiveness of sins, while at the same time funding a building project in the Vatican.
Where do I sign up?
OK I am joking, but wasn't that one of Luthers big gripes with the Roman Catholic Church?
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 19 2006,13:05) Robyn, I hope you don't get offended by the brothers here. Don't get discouraged. It is just that all here know and understand and have studied the things that are why people should leave the catholic church.
If you asked me if you should leave, I would have to tell you yes. I know it is hard to face it, but you have to not listen with your heart but with your head on this matter. You have to go according to the Word of God and not that of men. The catholic church is filled with traditions and rituals that God hates with a passion. He punished Israel often for doing such things. You have to do what God's Word says and not the words of men. There is only one true faith our there and that is the Word of God.
Amen!Regarding Babylon the Great, God’s Word says:
“In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” (Revelation 18:24)
How are this world’s religions responsible for the blood of all those slaughtered?
In that all these religions—including Catholicism and non-Christian religions alike—have supported, condoned, or even taken the lead in the wars of the nations; they have also persecuted and killed God-fearing people who disagreed with them.
The responsibility for bloodshed by the clergy has been both direct, in the Crusades, other religious wars, inquisitions, and persecutions, and indirect, in condoning wars in which members of the churches killed their fellowman in other lands.
In Babylon the Great was found the blood ….of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth. What bloodguilt she bares.
Peter De Rosa, who states that he is a “patriotic Catholic,” says in his recent book Vicars of Christ—The Dark Side of the Papacy: “The church was responsible for persecuting Jews, for the Inquisition, for slaughtering heretics by the thousand, for reintroducing torture into Europe as part of the judicial process. . . . Popes appointed and sacked even emperors, demanded that they impose Christianity on their subjects under the threat of torture and death. . . . The cost to the Gospel message was horrendous.” The only “crime” of some who were murdered was that they possessed a Bible.
What reproach those who claim to represent God have brought upon his name!
De Rosa notes that “in the pope’s name, [the inquisitors] were responsible for the most savage and sustained onslaught on human decency in the history of the race.” Of Dominican inquisitor Torquemada in Spain, he says: “Appointed in 1483, he ruled tyrannically for fifteen years. His victims numbered over 114,000 of whom 10,220 were burned.”
Truly, this scripture rings true:
“In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” (Revelation 18:24)
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2006,13:29) Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Aug. 20 2006,03:29) Act 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance: and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Penance?Does that mean pay money to the Roman Catholic church for the forgiveness of sins, while at the same time funding a building project in the Vatican.
Where do I sign up?
OK I am joking, but wasn't that one of Luthers big gripes with the Roman Catholic Church?
Well…part of the act of for forgiving has several steps.1. Recognize the sin
2. Feeling remorse
3. Restitution
4. Don't do it again.Penance is like the Restitution part of the process.
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 19 2006,13:31) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 19 2006,13:05) Robyn, I hope you don't get offended by the brothers here. Don't get discouraged. It is just that all here know and understand and have studied the things that are why people should leave the catholic church.
If you asked me if you should leave, I would have to tell you yes. I know it is hard to face it, but you have to not listen with your heart but with your head on this matter. You have to go according to the Word of God and not that of men. The catholic church is filled with traditions and rituals that God hates with a passion. He punished Israel often for doing such things. You have to do what God's Word says and not the words of men. There is only one true faith our there and that is the Word of God.
Amen!
Well…I do not have perfect knowledge and can only rely on my faith in God and my Church.Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 20 2006,15:48) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2006,13:29) Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Aug. 20 2006,03:29) Act 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance: and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Penance?Does that mean pay money to the Roman Catholic church for the forgiveness of sins, while at the same time funding a building project in the Vatican.
Where do I sign up?
OK I am joking, but wasn't that one of Luthers big gripes with the Roman Catholic Church?
Well…part of the act of for forgiving has several steps.1. Recognize the sin
2. Feeling remorse
3. Restitution
4. Don't do it again.Penance is like the Restitution part of the process.
And the money part?Hi Robyn †
Quote Well…I do not have perfect knowledge and can only rely on my faith in God and my Church.
A faith in an organisation that has slaughtered millions?What would you say if I condoned Adolph Hitler? Surely you would be horrified. Why is the Roman Catholic Church any different?
Would not one murder be bad fruit?
What about millions?What is that called?
Rotten to the core perhaps?I am sure Robyn †, that you wouldn't kill anyone, but you condone an organisation that has. Be not deceived. It is the truth that shall set you free. Your faith in the Roman Catholic Church is like building you house on the sand, you are not safe there. If the slow process of erosion doesn't bring your works down, then a tsunami can do it in one foul swoop.
Even worse than that though, you risk being judged for her sins because you admittedly say you are of her.
Rather build on the true foundation which is Christ. He is the rock of true salvation.
You know Robyn †, people also perish for lack of knowledge.
Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. “Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.Please be aware that I am not applying this scripture directly to you, as in you will perish for your lack of knowledge, rather I am pointing out a truth in the hope you do not go there.
Quote Hi david,
Please use the appropriate forum for your favourite topic.
This is not the thread about warfare and we need to stay on the subject at hand.Quote (t8 @ Aug. 20 2006,00:31) Hi Robyn † Quote A faith in an organisation that has slaughtered millions? What would you say if I condoned Adolph Hitler? Surely you would be horrified. Why is the Roman Catholic Church any different?
Well let's see. Hitler was a male and human. You are male and human. Are you responsible for what Hitler did?Your logic doesn't work. God Judges me. God knows what is in my heart. You don't.
Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 21 2006,00:45) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 20 2006,00:31) Hi Robyn † Quote A faith in an organisation that has slaughtered millions? What would you say if I condoned Adolph Hitler? Surely you would be horrified. Why is the Roman Catholic Church any different?
Well let's see. Hitler was a male and human. You are male and human. Are you responsible for what Hitler did?Your logic doesn't work. God Judges me. God knows what is in my heart. You don't.
To Robyn †,OK I will change Adolph Hitler to the Nazis.
Would you not have reservations about me if I were a Nazi. Surely you would wonder why I would want to be part of an organisation that has inflicted such cruelty.
What would you say if I said my faith was in God and the Nazi Party? Why is that any different to saying I base my faith on God and the Roman Catholic Church who are responsible for many deaths. What is the difference?
You know that some actually did believe once that Adoph and the Nazis were of God, because the got rid of pornography and the like before they did all the other stuff that showed their true colours.
Anyway it is up to you what you choose. It makes no difference to me whatsoever if you are a Roman Catholic or whatever.
Each one of us is responsible for what we do with our lives and what we condone and whom we serve. All I can do is serve God myself and help others when I see a need. If they refuse help then that is their decision. I respect that and so does God. He gave each of us free will and that is why we have no excuse for what we do. Because ultimately we choose what we want.
Hi Robyn,
Sorry but when you said
“Well…part of the act of for forgiving has several steps.1. Recognize the sin
2. Feeling remorse
3. Restitution
4. Don't do it again”You were not surely talking about forgiving
but
the hope of being forgiven ?God forgives us in the process of rebirth into the Son of God.
Catholicism does not offer you the forgiveness of God.Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 20 2006,05:45) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 20 2006,00:31) Hi Robyn † Quote A faith in an organisation that has slaughtered millions? What would you say if I condoned Adolph Hitler? Surely you would be horrified. Why is the Roman Catholic Church any different?
Well let's see. Hitler was a male and human. You are male and human. Are you responsible for what Hitler did?Your logic doesn't work. God Judges me. God knows what is in my heart. You don't.
Hi Robyn,
Catholics are taught that their actions in obeying the church ritualistic demands and regulations and obeying the OT commandments and being good people brings salvation from a loving God.But it is about responding personally to the gospel that is what Jesus spoke of in Jn 3.16f
“16”For God so (A)loved the world, that He (B)gave His Âonly begotten Son, that whoever (D)believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17″For God (E)did not send the Son into the world (F)to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18″(G)He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of (H)the only begotten Son of God.
19″This is the judgment, that (I)the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for (J)their deeds were evil.
20″(K)For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21″But he who (L)practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
He said you must be born again to enter the kingdom.
You do not need to be reborn to become a catholic.Thus catholicism is, at best, irrelevant and a dangerous deception.
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