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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 19 2006,23:15) So where does it say anything about a pope?
Remember when Jesus said to Peter..”You are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” ?Now Jesus changed his name from Simon to Peter indicates the apostle being called to a special role of leadership. This happens a lot in the past in the Bible. Remember how Abram’s name was changed to Abraham, or Jacob’s to Israel, or Saul’s to Paul when each of them was called to assume a special role of leadership. Peters role was to lead the church as the first Pope.
Robyn,
Where does it call Peter a Pope in scripture? Where does it call the church catholic?
Where does it say in scripture to pray to Mary? Where does it say in scripture to have idols? Where does it say in scripture to bow down to any man and kiss their robe or hand or ring as if they are God?2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
HI RoBYN,
You state:Quote Remember when Jesus said to Peter..”You are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” ? Matt. 16:18, JB: “I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it.”
Robyn, Notice in the context [vss. 13, 20] that the discussion centers on the identity of Jesus.
Here's an interesting question:
Whom did the apostles Peter and Paul understand to be the “rock,” the “cornerstone”?Acts 4:8-11, JB: “Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, addressed them, ‘Rulers of the people, and elders! . . . it was by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the one you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by this name and by no other that this man is able to stand up perfectly healthy, here in your presence, today. This is the stone rejected by you the builders, but which has proved to be the keystone [“cornerstone,” NAB].’”
1 Pet. 2:4-8, JB: “Set yourselves close to him [the Lord Jesus Christ] so that you too . . . may be living stones making a spiritual house. As scripture says: See how I lay in Zion a precious cornerstone that I have chosen and the man who rests his trust on it will not be disappointed. That means that for you who are believers, it is precious; but for unbelievers, the stone rejected by the builders has proved to be the keystone, a stone to stumble over, a rock to bring men down.”
Eph. 2:20, JB: “You are part of a building that has the apostles and prophets for its foundations, and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone.”
These scriptures make it clear who the stone is that the “church” is built on–Jesus Christ, the “main cornerstone,” the “keystone,” a “rock,” “a precious cornerstone,” “the stone rejected,” “the keystone.”
“In this same period of my priesthood, I also wrote a book against a letter of Donatus . . . In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built.’ . . . But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For,‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter.”—The Fathers of the Church—Saint Augustine, the Retractations (Washington, D.C.; 1968), translated by Mary I. Bogan, Book I, p. 90.
This was the belief of Augustine (who was viewed as a saint by the Catholic Church)?
ROBYN,
Here's a good QUEstion:
Did the other apostles view Peter as having primacy among them?Luke 22:24-26, JB: “A dispute arose also between them [the apostles] about which should be reckoned the greatest, but he said to them, ‘Among pagans it is the kings who lord it over them, and those who have authority over them are given the title Benefactor. This must not happen with you.’”
Answer me this Robyn, If Peter were the “rock,” would there have been any question as to which one of them “should be reckoned the greatest”?
Since Jesus Christ, the head of the congregation, is alive, does he need successors?Heb. 7:23-25, JB: “Then there used to be a great number of those other priests [in Israel], because death put an end to each one of them; but this one [Jesus Christ], because he remains for ever, can never lose his priesthood. It follows, then, that his power to save is utterly certain, since he is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.”
Rom. 6:9, JB: “Christ, as we know, having been raised from the dead will never die again.”
Eph. 5:23, JB: “Christ is head of the Church.”
What do you think Robyn?
Robyn, you only replied to my above post by saying that I “overthink” things. If that's your reply to what the scriptures actually say….you are blind and deceived. Please at least attempt to make some statement on what the Bible actually says.
Quote (Robyn † @ Sep. 20 2006,20:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 19 2006,23:15) So where does it say anything about a pope?
Remember when Jesus said to Peter..”You are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” ?Now Jesus changed his name from Simon to Peter indicates the apostle being called to a special role of leadership. This happens a lot in the past in the Bible. Remember how Abram’s name was changed to Abraham, or Jacob’s to Israel, or Saul’s to Paul when each of them was called to assume a special role of leadership. Peters role was to lead the church as the first Pope.
Robyn † believe what you want to believe. May God have mercy on you for trying to lead others astray with your false teachings.Follow the Pope if you will, but those who are of the truth follow the shepherd and the shepherd isn't the pope.
Quote (Robyn † @ Sep. 20 2006,01:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 19 2006,23:15) So where does it say anything about a pope?
Remember when Jesus said to Peter..”You are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” ?Now Jesus changed his name from Simon to Peter indicates the apostle being called to a special role of leadership. This happens a lot in the past in the Bible. Remember how Abram’s name was changed to Abraham, or Jacob’s to Israel, or Saul’s to Paul when each of them was called to assume a special role of leadership. Peters role was to lead the church as the first Pope.
Hi Robyn t,
So where is this special role of leadership shown in the bible? When Paul met with the leaders there seemed to be three.
Gal 2
“9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”
And again when he met them did Peter make the decisions or was it James who did?Acts 15
“13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.”
Peter was the first stone found ready to be built into the building founded on Christ, but he was not made a king or an emperor, like the pope, to live in a glorious worldly roman palace.
Did you know we all get a new name?
Rev 2
“17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. “Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Sep. 20 2006,01:29) Robyn, Where does it call Peter a Pope in scripture? Where does it call the church catholic?
Where does it say in scripture to pray to Mary? Where does it say in scripture to have idols? Where does it say in scripture to bow down to any man and kiss their robe or hand or ring as if they are God?2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Well St. Peter was the first pope, Prince of the Apostles, and founder, with St. Paul, of the see of Rome.Remember when Jesus also gave Simon a new name: Cephas, or the rock. Peter knew Jesus as the Messiah, the son of the living God. Christ said to Peter: “… you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church. Christ also said “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”. Peter was always listed as the first of the Apostles in all of the New Testament accounts and was a member of the inner circle of Jesus, with James and John.
You have to remember that when Christ had risen…he apeared before Peter before all the other apostles. From the beginning of our Church… Peter was recognized as the Prince of the Apostles and the first Supreme Pontiff. Christ gave the keys to the gospel to Pope Peter. The priesthood…the authority to act in Gods name. Without this authority from God himself….you are lost.
Catholic means universal. Gods Church on earth.
We pray to Mary because she is the Motehr of God. God himself chose Mary to be his mother. Mary is the mother of all men. We believe that God had come to earth as Jesus Christ and chose to come into the world through a mother in order that that mother might accept as His brothers all the children of the sinful race of man.
Since Mary is the Mother of all of us we feel that she will be as eager to help us, in troubles of soul and body, as every natural mother is eager to promote the welfare of her child. We don't Pray to Mary but pray through Mary.
Do you honestly think we worship statues? It shows how mush you know about the RCC. You must think because Catholics have statues in our churches…goes the accusation, they are violating God’s commandment about graven images and stuff.
We use statues and paintings to help to remind us and teach us about. It is like looking at a photograph of your mother. Same type of deal.
Quote (david @ Sep. 20 2006,05:05) What do you think Robyn?
I think you over think the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.Quote (t8 @ Sep. 20 2006,12:11) Robyn † believe what you want to believe. May God have mercy on you for trying to lead others astray with your false teachings. Follow the Pope if you will, but those who are of the truth follow the shepherd and the shepherd isn't the pope.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm only sharing the truth.Robyn,
I totally know where you are coming from. You believe that the church was founded by Christ. You believe that church to be the Roman church. The Roman church declares tradition equal with scripture. That makes it hard to convince you otherwise because you are snagged into relying on the church to understand your faith.
I just ask that you consider a few things.
1) What is the definition of a church in scriptures? What is the body of christ in scriptures?
2) Why does the Roman churches teachings not only differ but sometimes reflect the exact opposite doctrine of what is taught in scriptures. Many times from the mouth of Jesus himself.
3) I agree with you on the simplicity of the gospel. However, I don't think you considered that the gospel of the bible is far more simple than the gospel of the church. The Romans have turned the gospel into a system based on works and loyalty to the organization.
Quote Quote (david @ Sep. 20 2006,05:05)
What do you think Robyn?I think you over think the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Hey Robin. I would rather over think it than not enough. That conversation focused on Jesus. Jesus was the Rock that Christianity is built on. He's the head of the church. He's alive and doesn't need successors. Several other places in the Bible, it makes clear that he is the cornerstone or keystone or the rock.
ROBYN,
it's clear that the apostles didn't understand this as you do.Did the other apostles view Peter as having primacy among them?
Luke 22:24-26, JB: “A dispute arose also between them [the apostles] about which should be reckoned the greatest, but he said to them, ‘Among pagans it is the kings who lord it over them, and those who have authority over them are given the title Benefactor. This must not happen with you.’”
Answer me this Robyn, If Peter were the “rock,” would there have been any question as to which one of them “should be reckoned the greatest”?
david
Quote (Robyn † @ Sep. 22 2006,19:22) Quote (david @ Sep. 20 2006,05:05) What do you think Robyn?
I think you over think the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Put a mirror in front of your statement.The gospel is quite simple and is spelled out in scripture.
But the Roman Catholics and other denominations have complicated the simplicity of Christ by adding in Greek philosophy and the Trinity.
Quote Much of Benedict's speech was devoted to the argument that Christianity is rational because it is based on faith in God bolstered by the insights of ancient Greek philosophy. http://today.reuters.com/news….lePage1
Try applying your own judgement to yourself.
Anyone who tries to replace Christ is antichrist.
Jesus was and is the head of the church.
The Pope is not the head of the church, he is the head of the Roman Catholics.
As scripture states many times, it is better to be led by God, not man.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2006,15:22) Anyone who tries to replace Christ is antichrist. Jesus was and is the head of the church.
The Pope is not the head of the church, he is the head of the Roman Catholics.
As scripture states many times, it is better to be led by God, not man.
The Pope is head of the Roman Universal (catholic) Church. There is nothing Christian about the name.He wears the crown of Dagon, the fish god. It really is blasphemous once you understand all the pagan imagery in catholocism.
http://www.thetruthishere.com/dagon.html
a photo
Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 22 2006,05:49) Robyn, I totally know where you are coming from. You believe that the church was founded by Christ. You believe that church to be the Roman church. The Roman church declares tradition equal with scripture. That makes it hard to convince you otherwise because you are snagged into relying on the church to understand your faith.
I just ask that you consider a few things.
1) What is the definition of a church in scriptures? What is the body of christ in scriptures?
2) Why does the Roman churches teachings not only differ but sometimes reflect the exact opposite doctrine of what is taught in scriptures. Many times from the mouth of Jesus himself.
3) I agree with you on the simplicity of the gospel. However, I don't think you considered that the gospel of the bible is far more simple than the gospel of the church. The Romans have turned the gospel into a system based on works and loyalty to the organization.
1. Church means the Lords House and the place of worship from what I been taught. The Body of Christ as I remember concerning our Church is devided in three specific qualities from what I remember from Catechism. She is one body and has Christ as her head and she is Christ’s bride.2. It may seem different from you because you do not have the guidance that is needed to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. You rely strictly in scriptures that can be interpreted with the error of man. Why do you think there are so many churches? It is because of the error of man. It is all about the authority to act in Gods name that was given to St. Peter with the help of God established the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
3. Look at how many bibles we have. You know why? The error of man again. The bible you use is different from mine. You removed 5 chapters from your bible. Ifit wasn't for our Church..you wouldn't have a bible today.
Quote He wears the crown of Dagon, the fish god. It really is blasphemous once you understand all the pagan imagery in catholocism. http://www.thetruthishere.com/dagon.html
a photo
Hi Mercy. Of course you are aware the the image of your avatar, the symbol of the cross has been a pagan symbol stretching in all directions into antiquity.
You also realize that the Roman Catholic church has a history of adding pagan beliefs and holidays to itself. (Roman Saturnalia and all it's paganism's became Christmas. They took the Memorial of Christ's death, and added fertility gods (estart?) and little bunny rabbits and eggs, symbols of fertility. They've incorporated the almost universal pagan immortal soul belief into their philosophy.
And even the very symbol of theirs, the cross (In the Bible Gk: “stauros, xylon,” ie: stake, pole) and changed it to the universally accepted religious symbol, the cross.
This makes it easier for the pagans to become Christian. If they're both celelbrating the same things and have the same holidays and the same symbols, much easier to accept so called “christianity.” Of course, its not really Christianity when you put guns to peoples heads and force them to be Christian. Nor is it Christian when you slaughter millions. Oh well.But about the cross, your avatar. I'm interested to know what you think of what I said. I've said a lot about this in the “cross” thread.
david
Quote (Robyn † @ Sep. 22 2006,22:50) Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 22 2006,05:49) Robyn, I totally know where you are coming from. You believe that the church was founded by Christ. You believe that church to be the Roman church. The Roman church declares tradition equal with scripture. That makes it hard to convince you otherwise because you are snagged into relying on the church to understand your faith.
I just ask that you consider a few things.
1) What is the definition of a church in scriptures? What is the body of christ in scriptures?
2) Why does the Roman churches teachings not only differ but sometimes reflect the exact opposite doctrine of what is taught in scriptures. Many times from the mouth of Jesus himself.
3) I agree with you on the simplicity of the gospel. However, I don't think you considered that the gospel of the bible is far more simple than the gospel of the church. The Romans have turned the gospel into a system based on works and loyalty to the organization.
1. Church means the Lords House and the place of worship from what I been taught. The Body of Christ as I remember concerning our Church is devided in three specific qualities from what I remember from Catechism. She is one body and has Christ as her head and she is Christ’s bride.2. It may seem different from you because you do not have the guidance that is needed to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. You rely strictly in scriptures that can be interpreted with the error of man. Why do you think there are so many churches? It is because of the error of man. It is all about the authority to act in Gods name that was given to St. Peter with the help of God established the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
3. Look at how many bibles we have. You know why? The error of man again. The bible you use is different from mine. You removed 5 chapters from your bible. Ifit wasn't for our Church..you wouldn't have a bible today.
1. Church means ekklesia. Ekklesia means “called out”. Those who are Called of God to to be seperate. The Body of Christ is simply those who believe and follow the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.2. You make some good points. However, the bible says that this is exactly what man is going to go through. Man is going to have to apply faith and diligently search, because “ravening wolves” are going to step in and their is going to be a great “falling away”. Man does disagree and struggle with finding the truth. Narrow is gate that leads to salvation and broad is the Gate that leads to destruction. And not many will find it. I would like you to honestly search how Jesus can say one thing and the church say the exact oppossite. Here is one example: Jesus says not to pray with repetitions. The church has you pray the rosary in repetitions. This is pretty simple stuff. Do I really need the heirarchy of the Roman Church to help me understand this?
3. You assume this. I have and read the apocrypha. This is not a valid arguement with me. Although I differ and say that God's providence has far more to do with me having a bible today than it does with your church. You know as well as I do the church did not want the commoners to have access to the bible. They even killed those who translated it such as “Tyndale” and burned the bibles in bonfires.
Robyn, you only replied to my Sept 20th post by saying that I overthink things.
Well I don't think you think things over enough
Please go back to my Sept 20th post and explain why the Bible is wrong. Explain why the apostles seemed unaware of what you seem to understand so clearly.
“Church” itself is a pagan word. “Congregation” is the word that is found in my Bible. The word “ecclesiastes” means to congregate together. People who meet together are a congregation.
The word “church,” which has pagan backgrounds, has definitions which fit outside of what the Bible writers meant.Quote (Robyn † @ Sep. 22 2006,22:50) Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 22 2006,05:49) Robyn, I totally know where you are coming from. You believe that the church was founded by Christ. You believe that church to be the Roman church. The Roman church declares tradition equal with scripture. That makes it hard to convince you otherwise because you are snagged into relying on the church to understand your faith.
I just ask that you consider a few things.
1) What is the definition of a church in scriptures? What is the body of christ in scriptures?
2) Why does the Roman churches teachings not only differ but sometimes reflect the exact opposite doctrine of what is taught in scriptures. Many times from the mouth of Jesus himself.
3) I agree with you on the simplicity of the gospel. However, I don't think you considered that the gospel of the bible is far more simple than the gospel of the church. The Romans have turned the gospel into a system based on works and loyalty to the organization.
1. Church means the Lords House and the place of worship from what I been taught. The Body of Christ as I remember concerning our Church is devided in three specific qualities from what I remember from Catechism. She is one body and has Christ as her head and she is Christ’s bride.2. It may seem different from you because you do not have the guidance that is needed to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. You rely strictly in scriptures that can be interpreted with the error of man. Why do you think there are so many churches? It is because of the error of man. It is all about the authority to act in Gods name that was given to St. Peter with the help of God established the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
3. Look at how many bibles we have. You know why? The error of man again. The bible you use is different from mine. You removed 5 chapters from your bible. Ifit wasn't for our Church..you wouldn't have a bible today.
Hi robyn,
What do you think about the way the catholic church got involved with Emperor Constantine and let him organise and preside over the work of that church?
Was that right?
Did it distort the ways of God?Are you proud of every behaviour of the catholic church?
Will Jesus be pleased with her?
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