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Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 24 2006,00:53) The blood that is on the hands of the catholic church is that of many saints who refused to accept the false teachings of this religion. And then there is the blood of God's chose people Israel that died at the end of the sword during the crusuades that was ordered by the catholic church. Then we can go to the inquistions.
I think there was a total of eight crusades. I think they were started to reclaim the holy land and stop the muslim invasion that was occuring. I also think they were started to bring together the Roman and Orthodox Catholics together. I think it also brought feuding Lords and Knights together for a single cause.The muslims basically started it with the same concept you see today….”holy war”. The muslims invaded Jerusalam and charged a tax to christians unfairly.
As we know..the crusades had overall negative outcome. You may us it to try embarrass the Church. The Crusades left the Byzantine East cut-off from the Roman West. Christianity and Islam were thrown on different sides that has lasted to this very day.
Hi Robyn,
Why should men seek earthly battles when there are more important ones to fight. Let the dead bury the dead
Eph 6
10″Finally, (S)be strong in the Lord and in (T)the strength of His might.
11(U)Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the (V)schemes of the devil.12For our (W)struggle is not against (X)flesh and blood, but (Y)against the rulers, against the powers, against the (Z)world forces of this (AA)darkness, against the (AB)spiritual forces of wickedness in (AC)the heavenly places.
13Therefore, take up (AD)the full armor of God, so that you will be able to (AE)resist in (AF)the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14Stand firm therefore, (AG)HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING (AH)PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15and having (AI)shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
16in addition to all, taking up the (AJ)shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the (AK)flaming arrows of (AL)the evil one.
17And take (AM)THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the (AN)sword of the Spirit, which is (AO)the word of God.
18With all (AP)prayer and petition (AQ)pray at all times (AR)in the Spirit, and with this in view, (AS)be on the alert with all (AT)perseverance and (AU)petition for all the saints,”
Hi Robyn,
The church is not a political organisation.
Jesus lived under Roman oppression and made no efforts to oppose it, being seemingly indifferent to who ran the country.
“give unto Caesar..”
We should rather follow him.1Peter 2.9f
” 9But you are (U)A CHOSEN RACE, A royal (V)PRIESTHOOD, A (W)HOLY NATION, (X)A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you (Y)out of darkness into His marvelous light;10(Z)for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
11(AA)Beloved, (AB)I urge you as (AC)aliens and strangers to abstain from (AD)fleshly lusts which wage (AE)war against the soul.
12(AF)Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they (AG)slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, (AH)glorify God (AI)in the day of [a]visitation”
I grew up a Catholic, or at least, I was born into a Catholic family. I was baptized by having water sprinkled on my head. It wasn't my choice. And this method of baptizing people as infants by sprinkling water isn't biblical at all.
So, I grew up with Catholics. My friends were Catholics. Most everyone my parents knew were Catholics. It was a Catholic little town.
My dad, who I consider to be the average Catholic went to church only on Christmas (pagan holiday) and Easter (name of a false god).
We would have to put money in a little basket that was passed around WHILE EVERYONE WATCHED. How great is that. I can't describe how many Biblical principles that breaks.
And we would listen to songs, when I was young, sometimes in latin I think. All I know is, I couldn't understand them. But then again, the priests role was not to impart understanding. They would wear their black garb that separated them from everyone else, just like Jesus and the apostles did. Wait, sorry, they didn't. And, I would go up to the priest and he would put the body of Christ into my hands and I would partake of the little wafer that was supposed to be Christ himself. Seems canabalistic. Isn't that condemned in the Bible?
I remember sometimes you could eat meat on fridays and sometimes you couldn't and sometimes fish was ok.
And, I would go into the little room, where it's just you and the priest, and make up sins that I could tell him. And he would tell me to pray 10 hail mary's and 5 our fathers, which also is a direct violation of scripture.
And that's how things went, for some time. And then, someone came to our door. (matt 24:14)
They told my mom, that, to her suprise, God had a name. They told her a whole lot. And so, just as Christ fortold a division in the family resulted, mother against mother in law, father against son, etc.I would like to take this opportunity to ask all Catholics this question which bothers me.
In 1 timothy, chapter 3, verse 2, we are told that an overseer, or “bishop” according to some Bibles “should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife…” We know Peter had a mother in law. We know most of the apostles were married. And we know what 1 tim 3:2 says.
Yet, very interestingly, we are warned in chapter 4:1 TIMOTHY 4:1-3
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY, COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM FOODS which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.”Now, the Bible does say that it is better not to marry, especially in view of the times. But it doesn't forbid anyone to marry, as the Catholic church has done, which has resulted in many priests being very frustrated and acting out on this in the worst ways possible. It truly is, as that verse says, a “teaching of demons.”
And the food? Where does the Bible say not to eat meat on friday? It doesn't. In fact, it fortold that some would “command to abstain from foods which God created.”
I don't know. Maybe I'm taking this scripture entirely wrong. But it seems to point directly towards the Catholic church. Doesn't it?Hi,
People love order. They love organisation. They love rules.Catholicism offers them a life full of ritual and rules and with everything organised for you
in a very neat and tidy religious way.You do not even have to think for yourself.
But perhaps you should.
Quote I will be straight with you. We will go either to heaven or to hell. Everyone is not only invited to enter the Catholic Church, he is commanded by God to enter the Catholic Church. From the time of Christ to the end of the world, it remains forever true, Outside the Church there is no salvation. All of us must believe and do in order to get to heaven. This quote came from Robyn. Notice how she says that if you are not catholic, you are not going to be saved. At least, that is my impression of what she wrote.
Sorry Robyn, but my bible says if I have faith in Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness of my sins, I will be saved. It says nothing about becoming a catholic. If your religion teaches this, it is definitely a false religion or is this your own words? Requardless, I know enough about this religion to know it is not of God. There may be some who call themselves catholic that may be saved, maybe, I don't know for sure, yet if there is, if they truely are going to do the will of the Lord, it will be not through the doctrine of the catholic church, but through the doctrine of Jesus Christ.
Hi Robyn †,
Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 24 2006,11:45) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 23 2006,00:47) Hi Robyn † The Catholic Church didn't write the books in the Bible, but they did try to control it. So what was their motive?
Well after compiling the books together as one edition, they then denied ordinary people the books in the bible. When Martin Luther translated the bible for the ordinary people that really annoyed the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church.
You need to open your eyes.
Do you think you would even have access to the books in the bible if the Roman Catholic Church leaders had their way?
It is about control, not about enlightening ordinary people to the gospel and teachings in scripture.
Control vs freedom.
I choose freedom and it is the truth that sets us free, and scripture is true.
Okay t8,I think you should learn a little history about the Holy Bible. The Roman Catholic church carefully went over the books and scriptures. They rejected some and approved others..putting together the canon of the New Testament. If the Holy Roman Catholic church did not do this….there would be no New Testament today. You owe the Catholic church for the bible you are reading and quoting from daily. Simple fact.
Think about it. Because of the divine authority of the Holy Roman Catholic church..the books that were put together to form the Holy Bible as scripture and the word of God.
It was the Catholic Church and no other which selected and listed the inspired books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament…If you can accept the Bible or any part of it as inspired Word of God, you can do so only because the Holy Roman Catholic Church says it is.
You should thank us and not dis our church.
I personally do not thank the Roman Catholic Church for anything. I do not want to partake in them in any way.The fact is they are about control and if they banned the bible for the common man, and only distributed to people to compete with the Protestants then why should I be thankful to them.
Here is a better explanation:
“God caught the wicked in their own craftiness.
They bound the books together, banned people from reading them, then rather than loose control to the Protestants, they distribute it.
But even if they refused to distribute their bible at that point it would have made little difference in that regard because it was translated by Martin Luther for the common man anyway.
In this case, should you not thank Martin Luther, rather than me thanking the Roman Catholic Church?
And another thing to consider is this: God uses wicked people, even Satan to do his will. But if God uses Satan, am I suppose to be thankful to Satan?
No it all comes back to God and I thank him. I do not thank the Roman Catholic Church nor its leader and leaders.
God inspires man to write scripture and prophecy. He tells them to write it down to bless other. Satan tries to snatch away the word. Emperor Constantine determines which books are to be included and to burn the other ones. The Roman Catholic Church snatches the books away from the people. Then allow them to read it lest they loose control to the Protestants who are distributing the bible to the common people.
And you expect me to thank the Roman Catholics?
You obviously cannot see the forest for the trees.
Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 25 2006,00:06) Of course Peter would be proud. He was key in establishing Christs Church on earth of 1.2 billion members. Our Church is the one and only true Church that was founded by Christ on the apostles with Peter as its head.
To Robyn †,1.2 billion people makes the deaths, abuse, sexual misconduct, false doctrine, and deception worth it does it?
Should Mohammed be proud that Moslems number in the hundreds of millions and continue to grow at a fast pace?
Your thinking isn't very clear and your arguments fall flat on their face.
The fact that you make general statements, with no scriptural backing makes your bias and belief of no true value to those who seek truth. Even Christ used scripture to establish his teaching and to reveal the will of God. But you make silly statements like “We are 1.2 billion.
Imagine if Evolutionists made statement like:
“we have the truth”.
“We have millions on our side, our leaders are the smartest scientists in the world.”
“We came from monkeys and if you don't believe us you are silly?”Would that be reason enough to believe the theory of evolution?
If not, then why should we believe what you are saying. You haven't backed it up with scripture. So not one person who values truth is going to take you seriously are they?
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 25 2006,10:19) And you expect me to thank the Roman Catholics?
Yes, I do. If it were not for the Holy Roman Catholic Church…you would have no Holy Bible. Thus you would be without the word of God. Thanks to our Church…you have a chance for salvation.Quote (david @ Aug. 24 2006,06:27) Who else here was born into a Catholic family? Raise your hand.
It is never too late to come back David. Your salvation depends on it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 24 2006,22:30) Hi,
People love order. They love organisation. They love rules.Catholicism offers them a life full of ritual and rules and with everything organised for you
in a very neat and tidy religious way.You do not even have to think for yourself.
But perhaps you should.
You act as if there is no order in Heaven or with God. God has a plan for all of us in an order prescirbed by him.Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 24 2006,22:37) Quote I will be straight with you. We will go either to heaven or to hell. Everyone is not only invited to enter the Catholic Church, he is commanded by God to enter the Catholic Church. From the time of Christ to the end of the world, it remains forever true, Outside the Church there is no salvation. All of us must believe and do in order to get to heaven. This quote came from Robyn. Notice how she says that if you are not catholic, you are not going to be saved. At least, that is my impression of what she wrote.
Sorry Robyn, but my bible says if I have faith in Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness of my sins, I will be saved. It says nothing about becoming a catholic. If your religion teaches this, it is definitely a false religion or is this your own words? Requardless, I know enough about this religion to know it is not of God. There may be some who call themselves catholic that may be saved, maybe, I don't know for sure, yet if there is, if they truely are going to do the will of the Lord, it will be not through the doctrine of the catholic church, but through the doctrine of Jesus Christ.
I really like you a lot heiscomingintheclouds. You seem very nice and patient with your comments.You have to remember heiscomingintheclouds…that Christ himself established our Church through the Apostle Peter…our first Pope. God himself gave the authority to our Church to act in his name. It is all about authority from God.
All other Christian churches broke off of our Church. You lost the authority from God to act in his name.
You know Robyn, it is very interesting to see a conservative Romanist like yourself. Given the deep divisions with Rome, with so many disagreeing with one another so vehemently on all sorts of issues, Mary being co redemptrix, papal infallibility (which, for all practical purposes has been rejected by many), birth control, charismatic Romanists, traditionalsits who insist on a Latin mass, etc etc etc… it is surprising to see that many Romanists choose to remain ignorant of the fact that there church is in a shambles, there are so many divisions within, it is a wonder that it even pretends to be unified. In fact, there are some Romanists who are basically warmed over existential philosophers more then deserving the name “priest”.
But not you Robyn… you still cling to the old ideas, found in many of the assertions made at Trent. I have to hand it to you, I respect your position, that Rome is the only true church, I respect that position more than I respect the pluralistic universalistic assertions made at Vatican II which claim that everyone will be saved.
you go girl!!
that is, go out from among them!!!! lol….
seriously, you need to realize that at Trent, Rome offcially sealed it's fate by anathematizing the very gospel itself. Salvation is by grace through faith, and not on account of works, lest anyone boast. You do not need to Roman sacramental system to be saved, you do not need to follow a fallible human being as if they were infallible… you do not need to place anyone between you and God… you don't need Mary, the departed saints, the priest…. all you need is Jesus, for He is the ONLY mediator between God and man.
So I urge you, to prayerfully read the following Scriptures in light of Rome's teaching, it won't take you that long…. and to be honest with yourself as to whether there is a conflict between Rome's message and that of the Holy Scriptures. Your eternity depends on whether or not you follow a man, or if you follow the Christ Jesus of Scriptures. What is your salvation based on Robyn? Read the following, and then please answer this question for yourself…. not for me… not because I want to win an argument over the internet…. but because your very soul hangs in the balance…….
1Ti 2:5-6 ESV For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.”
Rom 3:20-31 ESV For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (27) Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (28) For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (29) Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, (30) since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. (31) Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.”
Rom 4:2-16 ESV For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (3) For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” (4) Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. (5) And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (6) just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: (7) “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; (8) blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” (9) Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. (10) How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. (11) He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, (12) and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. (13) For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. (14) For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. (15) For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. (16) That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring–not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 9:30-33 ESV What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; (31) but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. (32) Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, (33) as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 11:5-6 ESV So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. (6) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Gal 2:16-21 ESV yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (17) But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! (18) For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. (19) For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. (20) I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (21) I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Gal 3:2-14 ESV Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? (3) Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (4) Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? (5) Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith– (6) just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? (7) Know then that
it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. (8) And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” (9) So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (10) For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” (11) Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” (12) But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” (13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us–for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”– (14) so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.Eph 2:8-9 ESV For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2Ti 1:8-9 ESV Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, (9) who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,”
blessings
Amen E,
But do not miss the message you give others as that would be tragic.
“
1Ti 2:5-6 ESV For there is one God,
and there is one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus,
(6) who gave himself as a ransom for all,
which is the testimony given at the proper time.”as I warned others Nick, do not misrepresent my beliefs, for I believe that Jesus was a man. It just so happens that I take ALL of the Scripture for what it says, and it also says, as you have already admitted, that Jesus is God. I know you can't quite come to terms with that yet Nick… but the Lord is woirking on you… breaking down the man-made doctrines that have had you blind for awhile now…. keep reading the Scriptures Nick!! here are a few for you meditate upon:
2Pe 1:1 ESV Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Tit 2:13 ESV waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
2Th 1:12 ALT in order that the name of our Lord Jesus is glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ.
1Ti 5:21 ALT I strongly urge [you] before the God and Lord Jesus Christ and the chosen angels [or, elect messengers], that you observe these [things] without prejudgment [or, prejudice], doing nothing by partiality. (The Alexandrian manuscript, as well as others, puts this literally as: “I charge thee, before Jesus the God and Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things”… the commonly received text puts this as literally saying: “I charge thee before Jesus Christ, the God and Lord, and before the elect angels”… etc)
Jud 1:4 ALT For certain people wormed their way in, the ones having been marked out long ago for this judgment, godless [ones], perverting the grace of our God into flagrant sexual immorality and denying our only Master, God, and Lord-Jesus Christ [or, the only Master God and our Lord Jesus Christ].
blessings
Hi E,
“1Ti 2:5-6 ESV For there is one God,
and there is one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus,
(6) who gave himself as a ransom for all,
which is the testimony given at the proper time.”Are you saying that the Mediator
Is also
The God with whom he mediates?ummm
Hi E,
Why should sisters rebuke one another?
Why have a family feud in public?
Did you not know you have the same mother?“You know Robyn, it is very interesting to see a conservative Romanist like yourself. Given the deep divisions with Rome, with so many disagreeing with one another so vehemently on all sorts of issues, Mary being co redemptrix, papal infallibility (which, for all practical purposes has been rejected by many), birth control, charismatic Romanists, traditionalsits who insist on a Latin mass, etc etc etc… it is surprising to see that many Romanists choose to remain ignorant of the fact that there church is in a shambles, there are so many divisions within, it is a wonder that it even pretends to be unified. In fact, there are some Romanists who are basically warmed over existential philosophers more then deserving the name “priest”.
But not you Robyn… you still cling to the old ideas, found in many of the assertions made at Trent. I have to hand it to you, I respect your position, that Rome is the only true church, I respect that position more than I respect the pluralistic universalistic assertions made at Vatican II which claim that everyone will be saved.
you go girl!!
that is, go out from among them!!!! lol….”
The followers of Constantine
are
Kin to the followers of Calvin.They share the same false doctrines and creeds but just do not get along that well because they want different blind leaders to follow into the same pit.
Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 25 2006,19:06) You know Robyn, it is very interesting to see a conservative Romanist like yourself. Given the deep divisions with Rome, with so many disagreeing with one another so vehemently on all sorts of issues, Mary being co redemptrix, papal infallibility (which, for all practical purposes has been rejected by many), birth control, charismatic Romanists, traditionalsits who insist on a Latin mass, etc etc etc… it is surprising to see that many Romanists choose to remain ignorant of the fact that there church is in a shambles, there are so many divisions within, it is a wonder that it even pretends to be unified. In fact, there are some Romanists who are basically warmed over existential philosophers more then deserving the name “priest”. But not you Robyn… you still cling to the old ideas, found in many of the assertions made at Trent. I have to hand it to you, I respect your position, that Rome is the only true church, I respect that position more than I respect the pluralistic universalistic assertions made at Vatican II which claim that everyone will be saved.
you go girl!!
that is, go out from among them!!!! lol….
seriously, you need to realize that at Trent, Rome offcially sealed it's fate by anathematizing the very gospel itself. Salvation is by grace through faith, and not on account of works, lest anyone boast. You do not need to Roman sacramental system to be saved, you do not need to follow a fallible human being as if they were infallible… you do not need to place anyone between you and God… you don't need Mary, the departed saints, the priest…. all you need is Jesus, for He is the ONLY mediator between God and man.
So I urge you, to prayerfully read the following Scriptures in light of Rome's teaching, it won't take you that long…. and to be honest with yourself as to whether there is a conflict between Rome's message and that of the Holy Scriptures. Your eternity depends on whether or not you follow a man, or if you follow the Christ Jesus of Scriptures. What is your salvation based on Robyn? Read the following, and then please answer this question for yourself…. not for me… not because I want to win an argument over the internet…. but because your very soul hangs in the balance…….
1Ti 2:5-6 ESV For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.”
Rom 3:20-31 ESV For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (27) Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (28) For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (29) Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, (30) since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. (31) Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.”
Rom 4:2-16 ESV For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (3) For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” (4) Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. (5) And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (6) just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: (7) “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; (8) blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” (9) Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. (10) How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. (11) He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, (12) and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. (13) For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. (14) For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. (15) For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. (16) That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring–not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 9:30-33 ESV What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; (31) but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. (32) Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, (33) as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 11:5-6 ESV So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. (6) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Gal 2:16-21 ESV yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (17) But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! (18) For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. (19) For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. (20) I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (21) I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Gal 3:2-14 ESV Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? (3) Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the
flesh? (4) Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? (5) Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith– (6) just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? (7) Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. (8) And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” (9) So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (10) For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” (11) Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” (12) But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” (13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us–for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”– (14) so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.Eph 2:8-9 ESV For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2Ti 1:8-9 ESV Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, (9) who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,”
blessings
Hi E,You don’t understand the Churches teaching on Justification.
“CANON I. – IF ANY ONE SAITH, THAT MAN MAY BE JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY HIS OWN WORKS, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, WITHOUT THE GRACE OF GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST; let him be anathema” (which means “out of the church”).
The teaching that we are not saved by grace alone is a heresy called Pelagianism, which was condemned by the Church in the 2nd Council of Orange, in 529 AD.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says “Our justification COMES FROM THE GRACE OF GOD. Grace is favour, the free and undeserved help THAT GOD GIVES US TO RESPOND to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life” (#1996).
The Church has always taught that salvation comes by GRACE ALONE.
Grace is from the fruits of the spirit and it is by the fruits of the spirit, that being Gods grace inside that we are justified.
I am more that happy to prove to you using scripture that we are not justified by Faith alone, Faith doesn’t = Grace.
No amount of faith means you can storm your way into heaven without being judged by the fruits of the spirit WHICH THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST.Catholic's have always believed we are Justified by Grace alone. But the idea of Faith alone, WOW has that got some serious problems.
The greatest fruit of the spirit is Love which is GREATER THAN FAITH it comes form hope likewise faith also comes from hope.I will have a look and see if I can find forum I started on this subject.
God Bless you.
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