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E-Maniac,
Once again you prove yourself to be ill-informed as to history. Open your eyes and
see what sort of hero your Calvin was:On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!(1) Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of “once saved, always saved” (known in certain circles as “the perseverance of the saints”) violated the cry of the Reformation — “Sola Scriptura” — by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:
“If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.”(2)
Evidently, in that day Calvin's authority in Geneva, Switzerland had ultimate “weight.” This is why some referred to Geneva as the “Rome of Protestantism”(3) and to Calvin as the “Protestant 'Pope' of Geneva.”(4)During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote:
“I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty.”(5)
All this reveals a side of John Calvin that is not well-known or very appealing, to say the least! Obviously, he had a prolonged, murderous hate in his heart and was willing to violate Scripture to put another to death and in a most cruel way. Although Calvin consented to Servetus' request to be beheaded, he acquiesced to the mode of execution employed. But why did Calvin have a death wish for Servetus?“To rescue Servetus from his heresies, Calvin replied with the latest edition of his 'Institutes of the Christian Religion,' which Servetus promptly returned with insulting marginal comments. Despite Servetus's [sic] pleas, Calvin, who developed an intense dislike of Servetus during their correspondence, refused to return any of the incriminating material.”(6)
“Convicted of heresy by the Roman Catholic authorities, Servetus escaped the death penalty by a prison break. Heading for Italy, Servetus unaccountably stopped at Geneva, where he had been denounced by Calvin and the Reformers. He was seized the day after his arrival, condemned as a heretic when he refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of Calvin.”(7)
In the course of his flight from Vienne, Servetus stopped in Geneva and made the mistake of attending a sermon by Calvin. He was recognized and arrested after the service.(8)
“Calvin had him [Servetus] arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death.”(9)
From the time that Calvin had him arrested on August 14th until his condemnation, Servetus spent his remaining days:” … in an atrocious dungeon with no light or heat, little food, and no sanitary facilities.”(10)
Let it be noted that the Calvinists of Geneva put half-green wood around the feet of Servetus and a wreath strewn with sulfur on his head. It took over thirty minutes to render him lifeless in such a fire, while the people of Geneva stood around to watch him suffer and slowly die! Just before this happened, the record shows:“Farel walked beside the condemned man, and kept up a constant barrage of words, in complete insensitivity to what Servetus might be feeling. All he had in mind was to extort from the prisoner an acknowledgement [sic] of his theological error — a shocking example of the soulless cure of souls. After some minutes of this, Servetus ceased making any reply and prayed quietly to himself. When they arrived at the place of execution, Farel announced to the watching crowd: 'Here you see what power Satan possesses when he has a man in his power. This man is a scholar of distinction, and he perhaps believed he was acting rightly. But now Satan possesses him completely, as he might possess you, should you fall into his traps.'
When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the faggots were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ….”(11)
Although we essentially have the same in the conversion of the repentant thief (Lk. 23:42,43 cf. Lk. 18:13) and the Scripture, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13), Farel still reckoned Servetus an unsaved man at the end of his life:“Farel noted that Servetus might have been saved by shifting the position of the adjective and confessing Christ as the Eternal Son rather than as the Son of the Eternal God.”(12)
“Calvin had thus murdered his enemy, and there is nothing to suggest that he ever repented his crime [sic]. The next year he published a defence [sic] in which further insults were heaped upon his former adversary in most vindictive and intemperate language.”(13) END
E-Manaic, this is REALITY. Try actually reading about what losers like Calvin actually said and did in their lives before expousing them as saints of the Kingdom. Sheeesh.
Semmy
Wow, thats horrible!
Revelation 21:8
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile,the murderers, <——————
the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Calvin better hope he was right about being predestined himself.
Once saved always saved:
Unless one commits the unpardonable sin then his sin is forgiven. If he continues to seek God after he/she falls then that person is saved. It has been my experience that if a person is truly saved he will always come bact to Jesus. And Jesus will always forgive him.
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, and having lost one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Once saved always save unless you choose not to be saved.
That's Right Nick, Mercy & Kenrch,
Now be honest. Do you REALLY want someone of Calvin's caliber interpreting scripture for you?
As Nick said, “By their fruits.”Notice what the issue was. Just because Servetus didn't agree with Calvin's theology and doctrines, he wanted him murdered. Calvin was a true trinitarian. Servetus refused to cow-tow in calling the Lord Jesus the Eternal Son of God, which is a term that is not in the Bible at all.
Here it is:
“Farel noted that Servetus might have been saved by shifting the position of the adjective and confessing Christ as the Eternal Son rather than as the Son of the Eternal God.“
The same thing happened to me by another minister who tried to misquote me and say that I did not believe Jesus was the Son of God. I told him that was not the case at all but trinitarians believe Jesus is God the Son. There is a vast difference between the two titles. I asked him to show me where in the Bible the Lord Jesus is EVER called God the Son. He is called the Son of God more than 49 times in the NT. God the Son, trinity, Eternal Son of God, were all ADDED by the Roman Catholic Church.
Of course he could find no citing of Jesus being called God the Son so he started talking about what the church I serve believes, my licensing……the moon! Anything other than Biblical proofs which would support his beliefs. When presented with this evidence, he refused to believe it even though he saw that his doctrine did not line up with the scriptures. He is another minister who could not debate the veracity of the trinity doctrine using the Bible itself. Their Bible is simply a prop. Looks good up there on the pulpit but don't take it too seriously if it doesn't agree with your theology. This is why those who ignore scriptures which clearly teach who God is and Jesus is, buy the lie of Satan.
There is also the spirit of envy going on. Since Satan now owns you with a lie, he gives you the green-eyed monster too. This pastor has a very small, shrinking congregation which has been meeting in a VFW hall and now in an elementary school gymnasium with no AC
. The church I serve at has over 500 members, two services and is growing still. In fact, we arlready have local approval to build an even bigger church to hold everybody. Therefore he is not at all happy with my ministry's success or his “rival” church's growth. So this is the mindset of those who still have Calvin's Satanic spirit. If someone's ministry is doing better than yours, try to undermine and discredit it! If someone refuses to accept your false doctrine, kill em'! Somehow I do not see that is something Christ would do.
Makes you think,
Semmy
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 04 2006,14:42) Once saved always saved: Unless one commits the unpardonable sin then his sin is forgiven. If he continues to seek God after he/she falls then that person is saved. It has been my experience that if a person is truly saved he will always come bact to Jesus. And Jesus will always forgive him.
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, and having lost one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Once saved always save unless you choose not to be saved.
Hi kenrch,
There is a thread on this matter but what you say I believe is in accord with
2 Tim 2.11-13
” 11(A)It is a trustworthy statement:
For (B)if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12If we endure, Âwe will also reign with Him;
If we (D)deny Him, He also will deny us;
13If we are faithless, (E)He remains faithful, for (F)He cannot deny Himself. “ever been angry?
(Mat 5:21-22 NASB) “You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' {22} “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
ever had impure thoughts?
(Mat 5:27-28 NASB) “You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; {28} but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
ever lied, as well as hating your brother, eg committing murder in your heart?
(Rev 21:8 NASB) “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”Ever been a situation where you could have professed Christ, but for some reason, you did not because you were afraid?
(Mat 10:32-33 NASB) “Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. {33} “But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.bottom line…. (Rom 3:23 NASB) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
this is not to defend the wrong things Calvin did… he was a fallen human being just like you and I…. but before you get on your high horse, looking down your nose at others, you have better take a good look at yourself…
(Rom 14:4 NASB) Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”we are to judge the works of others, to discern truth from falsehood…. to call sin for what it is…. but we must also never forget from where we come, and that we all deserve hell, when you come right down to it…. Saul was a murderer, Peter denied Jesus before men, Peter, and if these men can be forgiven, then I am willing to bet that Calvin could too…. but either way, it is not up to you or I to decide his ultimate fate.
blessings
blessings
Hi E,
You posted
“CALVIN thought heresies injurious to the Church and to the State deserved to be punished with civil penalties, and he gave evidence to prove that Servetus was such an heretic. This he did in the sixteenth century, when such was the universally prevalent opinion.”Calvin is quoted
” I will never allow him, supposing my influence worth anything, to depart alive.”Heresies injurious to the church and State deserve to be punished?
Who was he serving then?
Where does scripture recommend that the State be involved in the punishment of those who differ in their doctrines?
All the attempted justifications by saying it was the way things were done in those days or the catholics were worse do not deny that this man in his attitudes and actions was not serving God but man. The 'church' he was defending in this way was that of the Harlot and not God.
We are to judge by fruit,
and the fruit is truly rotten
IMHO.Hi E,
Was Servetus killed because he did not believe in the trinity theory of God?“Michael Servetus was born at Villanueva, in 1509. After a liberal education, he studied medicine; and anticipated Harvey in the discovery of the circulation of the blood. It appears that he had a lively genius, but was unstable, erratic, and weak. In 1530 he published a book “On the Errors of the Trinity.” His views need not be given here; one specimen will suffice to give an idea of them. He said that the doctrine of the Trinity was “a three-headed Cerberus, a dream of Augustine, and an invention of the devil.”
Is this good fruit of the doctrine?
Should we follow leaders who walk in these shady paths?
Should we accept their name rather than that of the Masters?Hi E,
Feeling sleepy?Rev 3.2-3
“2' Wake up,
and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.3'So (A)remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and (B)repent Therefore if you do not wake up, ÂI will come (D)like a thief, and you will not know at (E)what hour I will come to you.”
naaa.. just bored at the flimsy argumentation and constant muddy thinking, eg constantly committing the genetic fallacy, poisoning the well, etc …… talking to you guys is something like banging one's head against a brickwall…. even if we disagree on the Trinity, at the very least it would be nice to see some people actually learn to start thinking properly and stop committing the same fallacies over and over again….. but hey, just like the Scripture says, some people are always learning but never coming to the truth….
Hi E,
Do we find God and His ways by THINKING?I would have thought that too much thinking
and not enough praying by theologians
led to the false trinity theory in the first place.E-Maniac,
Calvin has been shown up by HIS OWN WORDS and documented acts in history. The lengthy glorification you posted of him does nothing to negate the facts. He had no reason or right under Sola Scriptura to order the murder of ANY fellow Christian over a doctrinal dispute. Even if Servetus was an enemy or apostate, the Bible says to rebuke such as person in the Book of Titus, NOT TO KILL THEM. Sorry bro but that's just plain Satanic.
However, his murderous spirit is obviously alive and well in lemmings like yourself. Go ahead and yawn.
Someone is mercilessly burned at the stake by your hero and you're feeling sleepy? Really compassionate of you.Very sad but pretty much what I expected,
Semmy
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 08 2006,01:57) Hi E,
Do we find God and His ways by THINKING?I would have thought that too much thinking
and not enough praying by theologians
led to the false trinity theory in the first place.
this is just silly Nick….. in your desperation to both avoid answering questions by asking other rather innane questions, well…. you just get ridiculous…..in fact this is such an absurd statement I can hardly answer it without laughing too hard….. but, I do thank you for the laugh at any rate….
so Nick, you are saying that you find God by NOT thinking…. ahhh… brilliant…. and tell me Nick, what is it like to cease to think? You apparently have experience with this phenomenon…. and I would really like to see you explain what sort of mental state this could possibily be….. you are defintely adding to Scripture by saying this, why do you teach these strange new doctrines Nick? How can you expect others to accept what is not biblical?
(Isa 1:18 NASB) “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.”
Jesus says quite plainly that we are to worship with our whole being Nick, including our minds, which means we must think, so why do you teach against Jesus in this way? (Mat 22:37 NASB) And He said to him, “'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'” (caps are the quotation of the OT in the NT and is not shouting)
at any rate, your “theology” or “doctrine” of not thinking does explain quite a bit about what you post at times 😉
blessings
Hi E,
Our useless natural monds cannot grasp the things of God. We simply cannot know God except by the mind of Christ and the work of the Spirit renewing that mind by the word of God.As in all things submission to the ways of God spares us the danger of misconstruing truth. Being “wise and clever” in our human ways is a great disadvantage and is mocked by God.
What we can know is that anything that can be known about the nature of God will not have to be imagined but will be WRITTEN.
Trinity is not written.
I believe that God has a perfect plan for us. If we follow Him as led by the Spirit we will find that place. This does not mean that everything about our lives is predestined. It simply means God says here's the way, walk in it. He often leaves us to make our own decisions about things. Fulfillment in God isn't so much being someone or something, but rather finding the ultimate relationship with Him.
Having said that, God has led me from being a school dropout and later on a drug using criminal who was involved in occult practises, to a computing teacher with an amazing relationship with Him.. My journey has been miraculous and I have seen Him open doors that have blown me away.
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