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Quote (Moriet @ June 14 2006,22:45) no not that doctrine, basically freewill or predestination.
Hi Moriet,I suppose that I believe in free will, if it means my responding to the grace of God onto salvation.
God commands us to do his will. There's blesssing if we do and curses if we don't leading to eternal consequences.
Now I believe that God gave us the ability to respond to his will and that is the initial measure of faith that each person of an accountable age and faculty has. For this reason, it becomes our responsibility and something that we are held accountable for if we do not respond to the love of God when he sent his son to be crucified for our sake.
For this reason, I do not believe in the popular phrase, “God's love is unconditional.” God's love I find is magnificently great and longsuffering towards us but also conditional.
As relates to pre-destination, that some are chosen to be saved while others unto condemnation, I do not believe.
If I remember correctly, John 3:16 says, “whosoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life.” Also that to each person, a measure of faith is given, which is why in Roman's 1 and 2, none are exempted from condemnation by pleading ignorance, albeit, those without law would perish without law, etc.This is my conviction, anyhow.
I agree with more Arminian doctrine so far than Calvin's TULIP, now that I have had a chance to do an overview.
http://www.lifegoeson.net/InTruth/calvarmn.htm
On point 5, falling from grace, I am confident of Christ's ability to keep us and that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, except ourselves. The scriptures show that the angels of God that failed to keep their proper domain and stay with God lost their place, that the original Israelites that God so tenderly protected from Pharoah during the Exodus from Egypt didn't make it into the promised land except two: Joshua and Caleb. These are used as examples to us in the NT. Hebrews 4 is one of the places, also 2 Pet 2. Jesus often exhorted us to endure, spoke of servants whose Master would return to find them busy about his business, etc.
Calvin was wrong.
2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who *have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into *bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
Hi cubes,
I agree.
Are not Calvinists known for their loveless legalism?
Only the Spirit of the God Who is Love can show us the outworking of the way of Christ.
The more men depend on works according to the OT Law the more they turn away from Christ, and unless they perfectly fulfill all that Law they are lost.This is a study that greatly interests me. I am in need of some learning concerning this. So without being able to solidly build a case for either position, I do have observations from scripture that I can't ignore.
It seems that the gospel is to be preached to everyone and that by hearing the word of God faith might come. I do think that the scriptures repeatedly say that everyone who excepts this faith has been called. Elsewhere it is written that the names of those who are amongst the elect were placed within the book of life before the foundations of the earth.
It seems a bit odd to go about declaring a gospel to every nation, and for Paul to feel such a need to reach those who are perishing, if everyone who will be saved already has their name in the book of life from the start anyhow.
Without a strong foundation, I have gleaned that perhaps, some are predestined and that others have free will. It is not a one or the other position but rather both. The first fruits, apostles and initial disciples, the remenant of Romans chapter 12 who had been reserved by God, the 144,000 in revelation, perhaps, were indeed predestined. God has reserved some vessels for his cause. I think that at least some must be predestined or else we would have to keep saying, “Well, what that really means is…” over and over again whenever the issue comes up. I think that mentality has led to a huge number of doctrinal errors.
Just a thought, I plan on having a good study on this with my cousin who attends a calvinist church. I will approach the subject with the ephesians prayer and the mind of Christ.
Hi Mercy,
I believe that those who love God are predestined to dwell with him, and when it is all said and done, they will not be moved or regretful of that decision: e.g. Psalms 15 & 24.
- Deu 33:27 The eternal God [is thy] REFUGE, and underneath [are] the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy [them].
- Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
- Psa 34:5 They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed.
I believe that each person of a viable age and intellect that is best known to God, is expected to recognize that God is, and to submit under his rule and reign to the best of their ability, bearing in mind that to whom much is given, much is required.
The argument against predestination as Calvin has it is that: angels in heaven rebelled and were not spared; Israel whom God favored and chose rebelled and were not favored, yet there was an ethiopian in the days of Jeremiah and also Bethsheba's husband, Uriah, who was a Hittite; Rahab, Ruth etc who were not of Israel whom God approved of. God approves of whoever does his will and rejects whoever takes a position against him. Even Jesus our captain says, he delights to do God's will and that it is for this reason that God is with him. Also Hebrews 1 says that Jesus loved righteousness… and for that reason, he is anointed with the oil of gladness…. When you read the prophetic scriptures concerning him, you realize that even for him, that was a decision and not an automatic easy pass.
- Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
- Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
- 1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD [be] God, follow him: but if Baal, [then] follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
- Jude 1:5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
- 2 Peter 2:18 (above)
Jesus said he chose twelve apostles and one of them was a devil. Doesn't that itself speak against such predestination? How can one revert if God has destined them to salvation? Do you see what I mean? And yet the same scriptures assure us that nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ or pluck us out of his hands.In the days of Elijah, Elijah and the 7,000 others were those who had not bowed their knees to Baal. They could have also gone the way of baal but chose to remain faithful to the True God, just as Elijah. This was not without effort or pain, judging from Elijah's life, and Joshua's, and Moses' etc.
Blessings. Gotta run.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2006,22:10) Hi cubes,
I agree.
Are not Calvinists known for their loveless legalism?
Only the Spirit of the God Who is Love can show us the outworking of the way of Christ.
The more men depend on works according to the OT Law the more they turn away from Christ, and unless they perfectly fulfill all that Law they are lost.
actually no, they are not Nick… when will the caricatures ever stop!!!!!!loveless!?!?! Was Hudson loveless? Spurgeon? John Gill? I could name Calvinist after Calvinist who have given their lives to the ministry, to be missionaries, to give all to God and His people. Some of our most moving hymns were written by Calvinists…. hymns like Amazing Grace for instance… tell me THAT came from a loveless emotional person and I will say you are a liar. You do not know of which you speak and you are profaning the memory of people you neither have known or met, so don't slap insulting labels on people you do not even know.
blessings
I am the real deal… a living breathing 5 point Calvinist…. how do you like me now uh uh…. lol
blessings, Ken
awww Nick…. come on…. be serious now…. “Calvinism” is merely a nickname for biblical Christianity…..
as Spurgeon well said:
“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again….. There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it…. The late lamented Mr. Denham has put, at the foot of his portrait, a most admirable text, “Salvation is of the Lord.” That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, “He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord.” I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. “He only is my rock and my salvation.” Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, “God is my rock and my salvation.” What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.”anyways… I don't agree with all that Calvin believed…. in fact, generally all people think of when they speak of Calvinism is predestination, as if the 2 are synonymous…. this was shown in this very thread as merely being a comparison being predestination and free will, but predestination is nowhere near the sum and substance of all that Calvin believed…. in fact Luther taught more and more strongly on predestination then Calvin did….. at any rate, I just go along with the nickname in the sense that I think Calvin's soteriology was correct, eg that it is biblical….. so please don't create straw men and caricatures in this matter…. I don't think Calvin (or any man or woman) is infallible….. ok?
blessings
he preached salvation by grace through faith alone against Rome's apostasy and false teaching, and that this salvation will always and inevitably produce good works, the 2 (faith and works) must never be confused with one another, but they must also never been torn asunder from one another…. Luther put it like this “salvation is by faith alone, but never by a faith that is alone”.
You don't believe that a person is saved by their works do you Nick?
blessings, Ken
Hi E,
The salvation that is true is not salvation by works
or faith alone
or repentance alone
or baptism alone
or Spirit baptism alone.All are popular false gospels.
ahhhh so you have a corner on the true gospel and no one had it right until you came along…. rriigghhhttttt….
Hi E,
Attack me if you must but I would prefer you to address the statement and disprove it if possible so we can all learn.Nick…. you are quite the character…. you attack people all the time…. you have attacked me and my beliefs repeatedly, and then you have the gall to complain!?!? please…..
besides, my disbelief that no one had the gospel right until you came along is a fairly understandable belief, wouldn't you say? It means that literally millions upon millions of people who did not have access to you and your teaching are without the truth. I am sorry if you think that this is a personal attack, but I guess that the way all false teachers operate, to disagree with them is to disagree with God, and they always have some “new” revelation that no one ever had before, and all must blindly follow or be lost. Sorry Nick, but I will not follow you or any man in that way.
As far as addressing the statement… what is there to address? You listed a few truncated statements regarding what you take to be false gospels….. and, in the process, condemn the true gospel itself, namely that salvation is by faith/belief/pistis alone: (NOTE, capitalization in the following is not yelling, but the quotation of the OT in the NT)
Jesus was specifically asked what works were necessary for salvation, and what did He say? (John 6:27-29 NASB) “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal.” {28} They said therefore to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” {29} Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Paul states
(Rom 3:20-24 NASB) because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. {21} But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, {22} even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; {23} for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, {24} being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
(Rom 3:27-28 NASB) Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. {28} For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
(Rom 4:1-16 NASB) What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? {2} For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. {3} For what does the Scripture say? “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” {4} Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. {5} But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, {6} just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: {7} “BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. {8} “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.” {9} Is this blessing then upon the circumcised, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS RECKONED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” {10} How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; {11} and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to them, {12} and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. {13} For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. {14} For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; {15} for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation. {16} For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”
(Rom 9:30-33; 10:1 NASB) What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; {31} but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. {32} Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, {33} just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.”
(Rom 11:5-6 NASB) In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. {6} But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
(Gal 2:16 NASB) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
(Gal 3:2-11 NASB) This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? {3} Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? {4} Did you suffer so many things in vain– if indeed it was in vain? {5} Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? {6} Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. {7} Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. {8} And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS SHALL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” {9} So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. {10} For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” {11} Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
etc etc……
Nick, put simply, the biblical evidence any type of false gospel which includes works as the basis for salvation is a false gospel, and that seems to be exactly what you are preaching.
blessings, Ken
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