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Hi WJ,
The Father is the God of Jesus Christ[Jn20.17].
Is He not your God though?
Who do you follow?Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,17:24) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,15:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,15:33) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,12:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,09:56) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,09:30) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 15 2009,05:54) From Haydock's Commentary: Ver. 14-15. For this cause I pray and bow my knees to the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity (or fatherhood[5]) in heaven and earth is named. The Greek word oftentimes signifies a family, and therefore may signify, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; and thus the sense will be, that God is not only the Father of his eternal Son, but (as not only the Latin text, but even the Greek may signify) of all angelical spirits in heaven, and of all men, especially Christians, made his adoptive sons in baptism. But here may be signified not only a family, but those in particular who are honoured with the name and dignity of fathers; so that the name which they have of fathers, or patriarchs, is derived from God the Father of all, and communicated to them in an inferior degree. This exposition is found in St. Jerome, in Theodoret, Theophylactus, St. John Damascene, &c. (Witham) — All paternity, or the whole family; patria. God is the Father both of angels and men: whosoever besides is named father, is so named with subordination to him. (Challoner)
Hi CA:We who are born again Christians are family, but Jesus said that we should call no man Father. He said we are all brothers.
There are the patriarchs who we refer to as Fathers, but this is not the same sense as calling the Pope and the Catholic priests Fathers. They are not your heavenly Father.
The authority in the church are Apostles, Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again it seems you are really agreeing with CA and not against him, he seems to simply admit it more than you can. Jesus did not prescribe this authority tree in-fact he said do not lord over each other like the gentiles but Paul being a preacher unto the gentiles created this authoritive structure of bishops in this regard to accept the structure would be to accept the concept of spiritual fathers as CA has said.Still it would be good for CA to stand boldly with his spiritual fathers and simply say “Yes, I am proud to call the Pope my Father and other Patriachs as well” He seems to want to slightly squirm away from it as you do.
Be hot or cold!
Jesus said that his disciples were his friends:
John 15 (King James Version)
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
So, why is it some still try to seek power over others creating mysteries and elite groups who speak in private when Jesus said clearly
“for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you”
Hi BD:Who called the twelve Apostles, and ordained them. Was it Paul or Jesus?
Also, God confirmed the teaching of the Apostle Paul with miracles and signs and wonders following. Would God confirm his teaching if they were a lie?
Also, the Apostle Peter speaks of the Apostle Paul:
Quote 2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; And I am not seeking a position of authority, God has shown me that is how He chooses to use me. I am not going to put myself in that position. He will do it because that is what HE want to do.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If that is the case brother then you should have no complaint against CA or WJ.You believe in positions of authority some others like Nick believe that the greatest among you must be a servant.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying you should not complain against what you yourself practice.
Some people may need a spiritual father or a father in the faith so if you are going to be a bishop why downplay this important position?
Hi BD:As a Bishop in the church I am a servant to the people to lead them through teaching them the Word of God and by living my life as an example for those over whom God has made me an overseer.
Jesus is my example. He said:
Quote Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.Quote Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:As for my disagreement on this issue with CA, Jesus said we should not call any man Father, and although as WJ and CA, and I have stated there a
re what are called Fathers in the faith, there is only “One God” who is our heavenly Father. I do not believe that the Catholic Pope or the priests should be called Fathers.As I have stated, God has said He was going to exalt me to the position of a Bishop, and when it happens, I will let you know. If He said it, then He will bring it to pass. He also warned me that the spirit of Saul would try to prevent those things that He promised to me, but He said that everything that He promised me would come to pass.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again, how is it you can say that the Pope should not be called the spiritual Father of those who claim that he is but then say some men are spiritual fathers?Wouldn't it be more just according to your own belief that you simply don't accept the Pope as Your spiritual father but others can be called your spiritual father?
Are you talking about the spirit of Saul the king or Saul who became Paul?
Hi BD:The Apostle Paul called Timothy “his son in the faith” because he said he begot him through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so, our spiritual Father is God because we are born of His Spirit. The gospel of Christ is the Word of God.
Many of the Catholic church are false doctrines and so, I do not believe that the Catholic church is a church ordained by God.
No, I am not talking about Saul of Tarsus who became the Apostle Paul. I am speaking of Saul who was trying to kill King David, just as some are trying to kill me, not literally, but trying to kill my faith in what God has promised me.
But God has said to me that every thing that he promised me will certainly come to pass, and therein lies my faith.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 15 2009,19:27) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2009,22:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 15 2009,12:24) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2009,19:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 15 2009,09:59) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2009,17:30) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 15 2009,05:54) From Haydock's Commentary: Ver. 14-15. For this cause I pray and bow my knees to the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity (or fatherhood[5]) in heaven and earth is named. The Greek word oftentimes signifies a family, and therefore may signify, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; and thus the sense will be, that God is not only the Father of his eternal Son, but (as not only the Latin text, but even the Greek may signify) of all angelical spirits in heaven, and of all men, especially Christians, made his adoptive sons in baptism. But here may be signified not only a family, but those in particular who are honoured with the name and dignity of fathers; so that the name which they have of fathers, or patriarchs, is derived from God the Father of all, and communicated to them in an inferior degree. This exposition is found in St. Jerome, in Theodoret, Theophylactus, St. John Damascene, &c. (Witham) — All paternity, or the whole family; patria. God is the Father both of angels and men: whosoever besides is named father, is so named with subordination to him. (Challoner)
Hi CA:We who are born again Christians are family, but Jesus said that we should call no man Father. He said we are all brothers.
There are the patriarchs who we refer to as Fathers, but this is not the same sense as calling the Pope and the Catholic priests Fathers. They are not your heavenly Father.
The authority in the church are Apostles, Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyThen the prophet Isaiah was wrong in prohesying Jesus would be called “Everlasting Father”, Isa 9:6
Then Paul the Apostle was wrong for saying he was a Father to those he espoused in Christ!
Then anyone who calls his dad, Father is breaking his commandment!
And how about this one…
Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) Eph 6:2
BTW the Greek word for Father in the above verse is “pater”, the same word Jesus used a thousand times!
WJ
Hi WJ:This is Isaiah 9:6 according to KJV:
Quote Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. This says “HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED” all of those wonderful attributes, and not that He shall be called “Everlasting Father”. He is the express image of God's person.
And Jesus is not speaking about calling not calling my earthly father “father” or even a step-father, that is fathers after the flesh who raised us.
Quote Hbr 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hbr 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.But Jesus said the following:
Quote Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.And so, what is your understanding of the foregoing scriptures?
The Apostle Paul said:
Quote 1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, [my] own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. He calls Timothy his son “in the faith”, and did not say that he was his heavenly Father. Neither do I see anywhere in the scriptures that Timothy calls the Apostle Paul “Father”.
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2009,19:54) He calls Timothy his son “in the faith”, and did not say that he was his heavenly Father. Neither do I see anywhere in the scriptures that Timothy calls the Apostle Paul “Father”.
Timothy didn't write any scriptures did he? So obviously you do not see him calling Paul his Father in the Faith.Pauls language about Timothy being his “own son in the Faith” should be enough for you.
If not, what about Paul claiming he is a Father to them…
Even though you have ten tho
usand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, “for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel“. 1 Cor 4:15And what about Paul still refering to the Fathers of the Faith like Abraham?
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that “our forefathers” were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 1 Cor 10:1
Abraham is the Father of the Faith before the law.
YHWH told him that out of his loins there would be a nation of people that are as the stars.
We are grafted in, therefore Abraham is also a spiritual Father through the faith of the Gospel!
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly“; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. Rom 2:28, 29
Read Romans chapter 11 for clarification.
We have Fathers in the faith, as well as Fathers in the flesh.
This is scriptural!
WJ
Hi WJ:And so, what is your point, that we should call the pope and the priests in the Catholic church Fathers?
There may be Fathers in the faith, but there is only “One God” who is our heavenly Father.
I am not sure that you meant Romans 11 for clarification, but I read it. Maybe Hebrews 11?
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyMy point is that you cannot say that scripturally we cannot have “Fathers” or call men Fathers.
As far as the Pope and Priest, that is for the Lord to judge, while I agree that no man should be called “Holy Father”, I think that spiritual Fatherhood is not merely giving someone a title but is a matter of relationship between the one who is a “Spiritual Son” and those who have espoused them to Christ and become mentors and spiritual leaders as Paul was to those he espoused to Christ.
I have several mentors in my life that I consider Fathers in my faith merely because they have played a tremendous role in my growth in the Lord. And I respect them as I would my earthly Father and in some cases even more so.
I meant Romans 11 to clarify the relationship of the gentile believer to the Hebrews.
WJ
Hi WJ:Ok. And so, What did Jesus mean by the following scriptures?
Quote Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,17:24) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,15:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,15:33) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,12:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,09:56) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,09:30) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 15 2009,05:54) From Haydock's Commentary: Ver. 14-15. For this cause I pray and bow my knees to the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity (or fatherhood[5]) in heaven and earth is named. The Greek word oftentimes signifies a family, and therefore may signify, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; and thus the sense will be, that God is not only the Father of his eternal Son, but (as not only the Latin text, but even the Greek may signify) of all angelical spirits in heaven, and of all men, especially Christians, made his adoptive sons in baptism. But here may be signified not only a family, but those in particular who are honoured with the name and dignity of fathers; so that the name which they have of fathers, or patriarchs, is derived from God the Father of all, and communicated to them in an inferior degree. This exposition is found in St. Jerome, in Theodoret, Theophylactus, St. John Damascene, &c. (Witham) — All paternity, or the whole family; patria. God is the Father both of angels and men: whosoever besides is named father, is so named with subordination to him. (Challoner)
Hi CA:We who are born again Christians are family, but Jesus said that we should call no man Father. He said we are all brothers.
There are the patriarchs who we refer to as Fathers, but this is not the same sense as calling the Pope and the Catholic priests Fathers. They are not your heavenly Father.
The authority in the church are Apostles, Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again it seems you are really agreeing with CA and not against him, he seems to simply admit it more than you can. Jesus did not prescribe this authority tree in-fact he said do not lord over each other like the gentiles but Paul being a preacher unto the gentiles created this authoritive structure of bishops in this regard to accept the structure would be to accept the concept of spiritual fathers as CA has said.Still it would be good for CA to stand boldly with his spiritual fathers and simply say “Yes, I am proud to call the Pope my Father and other Patriachs as well” He seems to want to slightly squirm away from it as you do.
Be hot or cold!
Jesus said that his disciples were his friends:
John 15 (King James Version)
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
So, why is it some still try to seek power over others creating mysteries and elite groups who speak in private when Jesus said clearly
“for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you”
Hi BD:Who called the twelve Apostles, and ordained them. Was it Paul or Jesus?
Also, God confirmed the teaching of the Apostle Paul with miracles and signs and wonders following. Would God confirm his teaching if they were a lie?
Also, the Apostle Peter speaks of the Apostle Paul:
Quote 2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; And I am not seeking a position of authority, God has shown me that is how He chooses to use me. I am not going to put myself in that position. He will do it because that is what HE want to do.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If that is the case brother then you should have no complaint against CA or WJ.You believe in positions of authority some others like Nick believe that the greatest among you must be a servant.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying you should not complain against what you yourself practice.
Some people may need a spiritual father or a father in the faith so if you are going to be a bishop why downplay this important position?
Hi BD:As a Bishop in the church I am a servant to the people to lead them through teaching them the Word of God and by living my life as an example for those over whom God has made me an overseer.
Jesus is my example. He said:
Quote Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.Quote Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above
every name:As for my disagreement on this issue with CA, Jesus said we should not call any man Father, and although as WJ and CA, and I have stated there are what are called Fathers in the faith, there is only “One God” who is our heavenly Father. I do not believe that the Catholic Pope or the priests should be called Fathers.
As I have stated, God has said He was going to exalt me to the position of a Bishop, and when it happens, I will let you know. If He said it, then He will bring it to pass. He also warned me that the spirit of Saul would try to prevent those things that He promised to me, but He said that everything that He promised me would come to pass.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again, how is it you can say that the Pope should not be called the spiritual Father of those who claim that he is but then say some men are spiritual fathers?Wouldn't it be more just according to your own belief that you simply don't accept the Pope as Your spiritual father but others can be called your spiritual father?
Are you talking about the spirit of Saul the king or Saul who became Paul?
Hi BD:The Apostle Paul called Timothy “his son in the faith” because he said he begot him through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so, our spiritual Father is God because we are born of His Spirit. The gospel of Christ is the Word of God.
Many of the Catholic church are false doctrines and so, I do not believe that the Catholic church is a church ordained by God.
No, I am not talking about Saul of Tarsus who became the Apostle Paul. I am speaking of Saul who was trying to kill King David, just as some are trying to kill me, not literally, but trying to kill my faith in what God has promised me.
But God has said to me that every thing that he promised me will certainly come to pass, and therein lies my faith.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Just remember that Saul was never meant to be a King nor was anyone else for God said He was there King but God gave them a King(Saul) because they wanted to be like other nations.You were really never meant to be a Bishop but nevertheless perhaps the people you will oversee are like those people then.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 16 2009,10:53) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,17:24) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,15:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,15:33) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,12:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,09:56) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,09:30) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 15 2009,05:54) From Haydock's Commentary: Ver. 14-15. For this cause I pray and bow my knees to the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity (or fatherhood[5]) in heaven and earth is named. The Greek word oftentimes signifies a family, and therefore may signify, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; and thus the sense will be, that God is not only the Father of his eternal Son, but (as not only the Latin text, but even the Greek may signify) of all angelical spirits in heaven, and of all men, especially Christians, made his adoptive sons in baptism. But here may be signified not only a family, but those in particular who are honoured with the name and dignity of fathers; so that the name which they have of fathers, or patriarchs, is derived from God the Father of all, and communicated to them in an inferior degree. This exposition is found in St. Jerome, in Theodoret, Theophylactus, St. John Damascene, &c. (Witham) — All paternity, or the whole family; patria. God is the Father both of angels and men: whosoever besides is named father, is so named with subordination to him. (Challoner)
Hi CA:We who are born again Christians are family, but Jesus said that we should call no man Father. He said we are all brothers.
There are the patriarchs who we refer to as Fathers, but this is not the same sense as calling the Pope and the Catholic priests Fathers. They are not your heavenly Father.
The authority in the church are Apostles, Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again it seems you are really agreeing with CA and not against him, he seems to simply admit it more than you can. Jesus did not prescribe this authority tree in-fact he said do not lord over each other like the gentiles but Paul being a preacher unto the gentiles created this authoritive structure of bishops in this regard to accept the structure would be to accept the concept of spiritual fathers as CA has said.Still it would be good for CA to stand boldly with his spiritual fathers and simply say “Yes, I am proud to call the Pope my Father and other Patriachs as well” He seems to want to slightly squirm away from it as you do.
Be hot or cold!
Jesus said that his disciples were his friends:
John 15 (King James Version)
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
So, why is it some still try to seek power over others creating mysteries and elite groups who speak in private when Jesus said clearly
“for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you”
Hi BD:Who called the twelve Apostles, and ordained them. Was it Paul or Jesus?
Also, God confirmed the teaching of the Apostle Paul with miracles and signs and wonders following. Would God confirm his teaching if they were a lie?
Also, the Apostle Peter speaks of the Apostle Paul:
Quote 2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; And I am not seeking a position of authority, God has shown me that is how He chooses to use me. I am not going to put myself in that position. He will do it because that is what HE want to do.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If that is the case brother then you should have no complaint against CA or WJ.You believe in positions of authority some others like Nick believe that the greatest among you must be a servant.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying you should not complain against what you yourself practice.
Some people may need a spiritual father or a father in the faith so if you are going to be a bishop why downplay this important position?
Hi BD:As a Bishop in the church I am a servant to the people to lead them through teaching them the Word of God and by living my life as an example for those over whom God has made me an overseer.
Jesus is my example. He said:
Quote Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.Quote Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:As for my disagreement on this issue with CA, Jesus said we should not call any man Father, and although as WJ and CA, and I have stated there are what are called Fathers in the faith, there is only “One God” who is our heavenly Father. I do not believe that the Catholic Pope or the priests should be called Fathers.
As I have stated, God has said He was going to exalt me to the position of a Bishop, and when it happens, I will let you know. If He said it, then He will bring it to pass. He also warned me that the spirit of Saul would try to prevent those things that He promised to me, but He said that everything that He promised me would come to pass.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again, how is it you can say that the Pope should not be called the spiritual Father of those who claim that he is but then say some men are spiritual fathers?Wouldn't it be more just according to your own belief that you simply don't accept the Pope as Your spiritual father but others can be called your spiritual father?
Are you talking about the spirit of Saul the king or Saul who became Paul?
Hi BD:The Apostle Paul called Timothy “his son in the faith” because he said he begot him through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so, our spiritual Father is God because we are born of His Spirit. The gospel of Christ is the Word of God.
Many of the Catholic church are false doctrines and so, I do not believe that the Catholic church is a church ordained by God.
No, I am not talking about Saul of Tarsus who became the Apostle Paul. I am speaking of Saul who was trying to kill King David, just as some are trying to kill me, not literally, but trying to kill my faith in what God has promised me.
But God has said to me that every thing that he promised me will certainly come to pass, and therein lies my faith.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Just remember that Saul was never meant to be a King nor was anyone else for God said He was there King but God gave them a King(Saul) because they wanted to be like other nations.You were really never meant to be a Bishop but nevertheless perhaps the people you will oversee are like those people then.
Hi BD:I will not be a Bishop or oversee anyone unless God puts me in that position.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,12:58) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 16 2009,10:53) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,17:24) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,15:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,15:33) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,12:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,09:56) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,09:30) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 15 2009,05:54) From Haydock's Commentary: Ver. 14-15. For this cause I pray and bow my knees to the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity (or fatherhood[5]) in heaven and earth is named. The Greek word oftentimes signifies a family, and therefore may signify, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; and thus the sense will be, that God is not only the Father of his eternal Son, but (as not only the Latin text, but even the Greek may signify) of all angelical spirits in heaven, and of all men, especially Christians, made his adoptive sons in baptism. But here may be signified not only a family, but those in particular who are honoured with the name and dignity of fathers; so that the name which they have of fathers, or patriarchs, is derived from God the Father of all, and communicated to them in an inferior degree. This exposition is found in St. Jerome, in Theodoret, Theophylactus, St. John Damascene, &c. (Witham) — All paternity, or the whole family; patria. God is the Father both of angels and men: whosoever besides is named father, is so named with subordination to him. (Challoner)
Hi CA:We who are born again Christians are family, but Jesus said that we should call no man Father. He said we are all brothers.
There are the patriarchs who we refer to as Fathers, but this is not the same sense as calling the Pope and the Catholic priests Fathers. They are not your heavenly Father.
The authority in the church are Apostles, Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again it seems you are really agreeing with CA and not against him, he seems to simply admit it more than you can. Jesus did not prescribe this authority tree in-fact he said do not lord over each other like the gentiles but Paul being a preacher unto the gentiles created this authoritive structure of bishops in this regard to accept the structure would be to accept the concept of spiritual fathers as CA has said.Still it would be good for CA to stand boldly with his spiritual fathers and simply say “Yes, I am proud to call the Pope my Father and other Patriachs as well” He seems to want to slightly squirm away from it as you do.
Be hot or cold!
Jesus said that his disciples were his friends:
John 15 (King James Version)
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
So, why is it some still try to seek power over others creating mysteries and elite groups who speak in private when Jesus said clearly
“for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you”
Hi BD:Who called the twelve Apostles, and ordained them. Was it Paul or Jesus?
Also, God confirmed the teaching of the Apostle Paul with miracles and signs and wonders following. Would God confirm his teaching if they were a lie?
Also, the Apostle Peter speaks of the Apostle Paul:
Quote 2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; And I am not seeking a position of authority, God has shown me that is how He chooses to use me. I am not going to put myself in that position. He will do it because that is what HE want to do.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If that is the case brother then you should have no complaint against CA or WJ.You believe in positions of authority some others like Nick believe that the greatest among you must be a servant.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying you should not complain against what you yourself practice.
Some people may need a spiritual father or a father in the faith so if you are going to be a bishop why downplay this important position?
Hi BD:As a Bishop in the church I am a servant to the people to lead them through teaching them the Word of God and by living my life as an example for those over whom God has made me an overseer.
Jesus is my example. He said:
Quote Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.Quote Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl
2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:As for my disagreement on this issue with CA, Jesus said we should not call any man Father, and although as WJ and CA, and I have stated there are what are called Fathers in the faith, there is only “One God” who is our heavenly Father. I do not believe that the Catholic Pope or the priests should be called Fathers.
As I have stated, God has said He was going to exalt me to the position of a Bishop, and when it happens, I will let you know. If He said it, then He will bring it to pass. He also warned me that the spirit of Saul would try to prevent those things that He promised to me, but He said that everything that He promised me would come to pass.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again, how is it you can say that the Pope should not be called the spiritual Father of those who claim that he is but then say some men are spiritual fathers?Wouldn't it be more just according to your own belief that you simply don't accept the Pope as Your spiritual father but others can be called your spiritual father?
Are you talking about the spirit of Saul the king or Saul who became Paul?
Hi BD:The Apostle Paul called Timothy “his son in the faith” because he said he begot him through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so, our spiritual Father is God because we are born of His Spirit. The gospel of Christ is the Word of God.
Many of the Catholic church are false doctrines and so, I do not believe that the Catholic church is a church ordained by God.
No, I am not talking about Saul of Tarsus who became the Apostle Paul. I am speaking of Saul who was trying to kill King David, just as some are trying to kill me, not literally, but trying to kill my faith in what God has promised me.
But God has said to me that every thing that he promised me will certainly come to pass, and therein lies my faith.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Just remember that Saul was never meant to be a King nor was anyone else for God said He was there King but God gave them a King(Saul) because they wanted to be like other nations.You were really never meant to be a Bishop but nevertheless perhaps the people you will oversee are like those people then.
Hi BD:I will not be a Bishop or oversee anyone unless God puts me in that position.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Yes, I know God also put Saul in that position don't you remember?Can you remember and explain exactly how and why Saul became King?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 16 2009,13:37) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,12:58) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 16 2009,10:53) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,17:24) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,15:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,15:33) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,12:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,09:56) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,09:30) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 15 2009,05:54) From Haydock's Commentary: Ver. 14-15. For this cause I pray and bow my knees to the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity (or fatherhood[5]) in heaven and earth is named. The Greek word oftentimes signifies a family, and therefore may signify, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; and thus the sense will be, that God is not only the Father of his eternal Son, but (as not only the Latin text, but even the Greek may signify) of all angelical spirits in heaven, and of all men, especially Christians, made his adoptive sons in baptism. But here may be signified not only a family, but those in particular who are honoured with the name and dignity of fathers; so that the name which they have of fathers, or patriarchs, is derived from God the Father of all, and communicated to them in an inferior degree. This exposition is found in St. Jerome, in Theodoret, Theophylactus, St. John Damascene, &c. (Witham) — All paternity, or the whole family; patria. God is the Father both of angels and men: whosoever besides is named father, is so named with subordination to him. (Challoner)
Hi CA:We who are born again Christians are family, but Jesus said that we should call no man Father. He said we are all brothers.
There are the patriarchs who we refer to as Fathers, but this is not the same sense as calling the Pope and the Catholic priests Fathers. They are not your heavenly Father.
The authority in the church are Apostles, Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again it seems you are really agreeing with CA and not against him, he seems to simply admit it more than you can. Jesus did not prescribe this authority tree in-fact he said do not lord over each other like the gentiles but Paul being a preacher unto the gentiles created this authoritive structure of bishops in this regard to accept the structure would be to accept the concept of spiritual fathers as CA has said.Still it would be good for CA to stand boldly with his spiritual fathers and simply say “Yes, I am proud to call the Pope my Father and other Patriachs as well” He seems to want to slightly squirm away from it as you do.
Be hot or cold!
Jesus said that his disciples were his friends:
John 15 (King James Version)
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
So, why is it some still try to seek power over others creating mysteries and elite groups who speak in private when Jesus said clearly
“for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you”
Hi BD:Who called the twelve Apostles, and ordained them. Was it Paul or Jesus?
Also, God confirmed the teaching of the Apostle Paul with miracles and signs and wonders following. Would God confirm his teaching if they were a lie?
Also, the Apostle Peter speaks of the Apostle Paul:
Quote 2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; And I am not seeking a position of authority, God has shown me that is how He chooses to use me. I am not going to put myself in that position. He will do it because that is what HE want to do.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If that is the case brother then you should have no complaint against CA or WJ.You believe in positions of authority some others like Nick believe that the greatest among you must be a servant.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying you should not complain against what you yourself practice.
Some people may need a spiritual father or a father in the faith so if you are going to be a bishop why downplay this important position?
Hi BD:As a Bishop in the church I am a servant to the people to lead them through teaching them the Word of God and by living my life as an example for those over whom God has made me an overseer.
Jesus is my example. He said:
Quote Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.Quote Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:As for my disagreement on this issue with CA, Jesus said we should not call any man Father, and although as WJ and CA, and I have stated there are what are called Fathers in the faith, there is only “One God” who is our heavenly Father. I do not believe that the Catholic Pope or the priests should be called Fathers.
As I have stated, God has said He was going to exalt me to the position of a Bishop, and when it happens, I will let you know. If He said it, then He will bring it to pass. He also warned me that the spirit of Saul would try to prevent those things that He promised to me, but He said that everything that He promised me would come to pass.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again, how is it you can say that the Pope should not be called the spiritual Father of those who claim that he is but then say some men are spiritual fathers?Wouldn't it be more just according to your own belief that you simply don't accept the Pope as Your spiritual father but others can be called your spiritual father?
Are you talking about the spirit of Saul the king or Saul who became Paul?
Hi BD:The Apostle Paul called Timothy “his son in the faith” because he said he begot him through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so, our spiritual Father is God because we are born of His Spirit. The gospel of Christ is the Word of God.
Many of the Catholic church are false doctrines and so, I do not believe that the Catholic church is a church ordained by God.
No, I am not talking about Saul of Tarsus who became the Apostle Paul. I am speaking of Saul who was trying to kill King David, just as some are trying to kill me, not literally, but trying to kill my faith in what God has promised me.
But God has said to me that every thing that he promised me will certainly come to pass, and therein lies my faith.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Just remember that Saul was never meant to be a King nor was anyone else for God said He was there King but God gave them a King(Saul) because they wanted to be like other nations.You were really never meant to be a Bishop but nevertheless perhaps the people you will oversee are like those people then.
Hi BD:I will not be a Bishop or oversee anyone unless God puts me in that position.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Yes, I know God also put Saul in that position don't you remember?Can you remember and explain exactly how and why Saul became King?
Hi BD:I know why God gave the people Saul to be their king, but also, He removed him because of his disobedience and anointed David as King, and from the lineage of King David comes the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, King Jesus.
As I have already told you, He said that He wanted to use me as a Bishop in the church. That is what He wants to do. I haven't asked Him to put me in this position. What I did ask Him was to teach me His Word that I He might teach others through me.
And so, don't worry about it. If God did not say it, then it won't materialize. I am here to obey Him so that He might save His children from destruction. It isn't about me, but about what He wants to do through me.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,15:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 16 2009,13:37) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,12:58) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 16 2009,10:53) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,17:24) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,15:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,15:33) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,12:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,09:56) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,09:30) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 15 2009,05:54) From Haydock's Commentary: Ver. 14-15. For this cause I pray and bow my knees to the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity (or fatherhood[5]) in heaven and earth is named. The Greek word oftentimes signifies a family, and therefore may signify, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; and thus the sense will be, that God is not only the Father of his eternal Son, but (as not only the Latin text, but even the Greek may signify) of all angelical spirits in heaven, and of all men, especially Christians, made his adoptive sons in baptism. But here may be signified not only a family, but those in particular who are honoured with the name and dignity of fathers; so that the name which they have of fathers, or patriarchs, is derived from God the Father of all, and communicated to them in an inferior degree. This exposition is found in St. Jerome, in Theodoret, Theophylactus, St. John Damascene, &c. (Witham) — All paternity, or the whole family; patria. God is the Father both of angels and men: whosoever besides is named father, is so named with subordination to him. (Challoner)
Hi CA:We who are born again Christians are family, but Jesus said that we should call no man Father. He said we are all brothers.
There are the patriarchs who we refer to as Fathers, but this is not the same sense as calling the Pope and the Catholic priests Fathers. They are not your heavenly Father.
The authority in the church are Apostles, Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again it seems you are really agreeing with CA and not against him, he seems to simply admit it more than you can. Jesus did not prescribe this authority tree in-fact he said do not lord over each other like the gentiles but Paul being a preacher unto the gentiles created this authoritive structure of bishops in this regard to accept the structure would be to accept the concept of spiritual fathers as CA has said.Still it would be good for CA to stand boldly with his spiritual fathers and simply say “Yes, I am proud to call the Pope my Father and other Patriachs as well” He seems to want to slightly squirm away from it as you do.
Be hot or cold!
Jesus said that his disciples were his friends:
John 15 (King James Version)
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
So, why is it some still try to seek power over others creating mysteries and elite groups who speak in private when Jesus said clearly
“for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you”
Hi BD:Who called the twelve Apostles, and ordained them. Was it Paul or Jesus?
Also, God confirmed the teaching of the Apostle Paul with miracles and signs and wonders following. Would God confirm his teaching if they were a lie?
Also, the Apostle Peter speaks of the Apostle Paul:
Quote 2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; And I am not seeking a position of authority, God has shown me that is how He chooses to use me. I am not going to put myself in that position. He will do it because that is what HE want to do.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If that is the case brother then you should have no complaint against CA or WJ.You believe in positions of authority some others like Nick believe that the greatest among you must be a servant.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying you should not complain against what you yourself practice.
Some people may need a spiritual father or a father in the faith so if you are going to be a bishop why downplay this important position?
Hi BD:As a Bishop in the church I am a servant to the people to lead them through teaching them the Word of God and by living my life as an example for those over whom God has made me an overseer.
Jesus is my example. He said:
Quote Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 Fo
r whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.Quote Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:As for my disagreement on this issue with CA, Jesus said we should not call any man Father, and although as WJ and CA, and I have stated there are what are called Fathers in the faith, there is only “One God” who is our heavenly Father. I do not believe that the Catholic Pope or the priests should be called Fathers.
As I have stated, God has said He was going to exalt me to the position of a Bishop, and when it happens, I will let you know. If He said it, then He will bring it to pass. He also warned me that the spirit of Saul would try to prevent those things that He promised to me, but He said that everything that He promised me would come to pass.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again, how is it you can say that the Pope should not be called the spiritual Father of those who claim that he is but then say some men are spiritual fathers?Wouldn't it be more just according to your own belief that you simply don't accept the Pope as Your spiritual father but others can be called your spiritual father?
Are you talking about the spirit of Saul the king or Saul who became Paul?
Hi BD:The Apostle Paul called Timothy “his son in the faith” because he said he begot him through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so, our spiritual Father is God because we are born of His Spirit. The gospel of Christ is the Word of God.
Many of the Catholic church are false doctrines and so, I do not believe that the Catholic church is a church ordained by God.
No, I am not talking about Saul of Tarsus who became the Apostle Paul. I am speaking of Saul who was trying to kill King David, just as some are trying to kill me, not literally, but trying to kill my faith in what God has promised me.
But God has said to me that every thing that he promised me will certainly come to pass, and therein lies my faith.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Just remember that Saul was never meant to be a King nor was anyone else for God said He was there King but God gave them a King(Saul) because they wanted to be like other nations.You were really never meant to be a Bishop but nevertheless perhaps the people you will oversee are like those people then.
Hi BD:I will not be a Bishop or oversee anyone unless God puts me in that position.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Yes, I know God also put Saul in that position don't you remember?Can you remember and explain exactly how and why Saul became King?
Hi BD:I know why God gave the people Saul to be their king, but also, He removed him because of his disobedience and anointed David as King, and from the lineage of King David comes the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, King Jesus.
As I have already told you, He said that He wanted to use me as a Bishop in the church. That is what He wants to do. I haven't asked Him to put me in this position. What I did ask Him was to teach me His Word that I He might teach others through me.
And so, don't worry about it. If God did not say it, then it won't materialize. I am here to obey Him so that He might save His children from destruction. It isn't about me, but about what He wants to do through me.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I am not suggesting that God did not tell you that at all, in-fact I am agrreing with you that some need a Bishop over them just as some needed Saul to be King.God Bless You!
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,09:56) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,09:30) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 15 2009,05:54) From Haydock's Commentary: Ver. 14-15. For this cause I pray and bow my knees to the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity (or fatherhood[5]) in heaven and earth is named. The Greek word oftentimes signifies a family, and therefore may signify, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; and thus the sense will be, that God is not only the Father of his eternal Son, but (as not only the Latin text, but even the Greek may signify) of all angelical spirits in heaven, and of all men, especially Christians, made his adoptive sons in baptism. But here may be signified not only a family, but those in particular who are honoured with the name and dignity of fathers; so that the name which they have of fathers, or patriarchs, is derived from God the Father of all, and communicated to them in an inferior degree. This exposition is found in St. Jerome, in Theodoret, Theophylactus, St. John Damascene, &c. (Witham) — All paternity, or the whole family; patria. God is the Father both of angels and men: whosoever besides is named father, is so named with subordination to him. (Challoner)
Hi CA:We who are born again Christians are family, but Jesus said that we should call no man Father. He said we are all brothers.
There are the patriarchs who we refer to as Fathers, but this is not the same sense as calling the Pope and the Catholic priests Fathers. They are not your heavenly Father.
The authority in the church are Apostles, Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Once again it seems you are really agreeing with CA and not against him, he seems to simply admit it more than you can. Jesus did not prescribe this authority tree in-fact he said do not lord over each other like the gentiles but Paul being a preacher unto the gentiles created this authoritive structure of bishops in this regard to accept the structure would be to accept the concept of spiritual fathers as CA has said.Still it would be good for CA to stand boldly with his spiritual fathers and simply say “Yes, I am proud to call the Pope my Father and other Patriachs as well” He seems to want to slightly squirm away from it as you do.
Be hot or cold!
Jesus said that his disciples were his friends:
John 15 (King James Version)
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
So, why is it some still try to seek power over others creating mysteries and elite groups who speak in private when Jesus said clearly
“for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you”
I'm not squeaming away from anything. This is an issue that must be understood in it's proper light.Anyone knows that we apostolic Christians whether Catholic or Orthodox call our priests “father”. In our case “abouna.”
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2009,14:21) Hi WJ: And so, what is your point, that we should call the pope and the priests in the Catholic church Fathers?
There may be Fathers in the faith, but there is only “One God” who is our heavenly Father.
I am not sure that you meant Romans 11 for clarification, but I read it. Maybe Hebrews 11?
Love in Christ,
Marty
So essentially you are hesitant to admit that WJ has a point because of what it would mean. You would have to concede that popes and priests are fathers. So even though this makes perfect sense, you can't admit it because of the outcome.I don't think I believe you are a true seeker of truth.
BTW, we don't call popes or priests “heavenly father”. We do, however, probably pray the “Our Father” more than all others. And we're not talking to the pope when we do.
Quote (david @ Oct. 15 2009,16:32) Quote So why do you all call your daddy father? –ca
Obviously, since others in the Bible where called “father” in a family sense, this is wrong logic.
Read and note the CONTEXT of Matthew 23:1-12.
Jesus begins speaking about the Pharisees, who were a prominent sect of Judaism. They were legalists, sticklers for observance of every detail of the Mosaic Law. They liked TO DRESS and ACT in such a way as to CALL ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES. Their religion was one of ostentation—their STYLE OF CLOTHING, their principal places at meals, their front seats in the synagogues, and their TITLES OF HONOR. They even claimed greater respect than that which was given parents. They wanted to be called father. However, Jesus shows that all his followers are equal as God’s children. Any title that suggests the opposite is a haughty usurpation of something that belongs to God. Thus, Jesus forbids the use of the word “father” as a title of honor in a religious sense. Jesus insists that his followers have only one Father in the faith, Jehovah.
The pope is usually addressed as “Holy Father.” But his Italian staff often address him as Santissimo Padre, which means “Most Holy Father.” “Holy Father” is a title that appears only once in the Bible. (John 17:11) It is the exclusive title of God Almighty. Is it right for creatures, who are earthly and imperfect, to be addressed by that title?
Look who has re-appeared. David, you have some 'splainin' to do about your organization's embarrassing record of being for military service then against it…among other strange things.Seems like every time I give those quotes and citations you dive back into the shadows.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 15 2009,20:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 15 2009,19:27) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2009,22:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 15 2009,12:24) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2009,19:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 15 2009,09:59) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2009,17:30) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 15 2009,05:54) From Haydock's Commentary: Ver. 14-15. For this cause I pray and bow my knees to the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity (or fatherhood[5]) in heaven and earth is named. The Greek word oftentimes signifies a family, and therefore may signify, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; and thus the sense will be, that God is not only the Father of his eternal Son, but (as not only the Latin text, but even the Greek may signify) of all angelical spirits in heaven, and of all men, especially Christians, made his adoptive sons in baptism. But here may be signified not only a family, but those in particular who are honoured with the name and dignity of fathers; so that the name which they have of fathers, or patriarchs, is derived from God the Father of all, and communicated to them in an inferior degree. This exposition is found in St. Jerome, in Theodoret, Theophylactus, St. John Damascene, &c. (Witham) — All paternity, or the whole family; patria. God is the Father both of angels and men: whosoever besides is named father, is so named with subordination to him. (Challoner)
Hi CA:We who are born again Christians are family, but Jesus said that we should call no man Father. He said we are all brothers.
There are the patriarchs who we refer to as Fathers, but this is not the same sense as calling the Pope and the Catholic priests Fathers. They are not your heavenly Father.
The authority in the church are Apostles, Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyThen the prophet Isaiah was wrong in prohesying Jesus would be called “Everlasting Father”, Isa 9:6
Then Paul the Apostle was wrong for saying he was a Father to those he espoused in Christ!
Then anyone who calls his dad, Father is breaking his commandment!
And how about this one…
Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) Eph 6:2
BTW the Greek word for Father in the above verse is “pater”, the same word Jesus used a thousand times!
WJ
Hi WJ:This is Isaiah 9:6 according to KJV:
Quote Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. This says “HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED” all of those wonderful attributes, and not that He shall be called “Everlasting Father”. He is the express image of God's person.
And Jesus is not speaking about calling not calling my earthly father “father” or even a step-father, that is fathers after the flesh who raised us.
Quote Hbr 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hbr 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.But Jesus said the following:
Quote Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.And so, what is your understanding of the foregoing scriptures?
The Apostle Paul said:
Quote 1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, [my] own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. He calls Timothy his son “in the faith”, and did not say that he was his heavenly Father. Neither do I see anywhere in the scriptures that Timothy calls the Apostle Paul “Father”.
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2009,19:54) He calls Timothy his son “in the faith”, and did not say that he was his heavenly Father. Neither do I see anywhere in the scriptures that Timothy calls the Apostle Paul “Father”.
Timothy didn't write any scriptures did he? So obviously you do not see him calling Paul his Father in the
Faith.Pauls language about Timothy being his “own son in the Faith” should be enough for you.
If not, what about Paul claiming he is a Father to them…
Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, “for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel“. 1 Cor 4:15
And what about Paul still refering to the Fathers of the Faith like Abraham?
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that “our forefathers” were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 1 Cor 10:1
Abraham is the Father of the Faith before the law.
YHWH told him that out of his loins there would be a nation of people that are as the stars.
We are grafted in, therefore Abraham is also a spiritual Father through the faith of the Gospel!
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly“; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. Rom 2:28, 29
Read Romans chapter 11 for clarification.
We have Fathers in the faith, as well as Fathers in the flesh.
This is scriptural!
WJ
Hi WJ:And so, what is your point, that we should call the pope and the priests in the Catholic church Fathers?
There may be Fathers in the faith, but there is only “One God” who is our heavenly Father.
I am not sure that you meant Romans 11 for clarification, but I read it. Maybe Hebrews 11?
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyMy point is that you cannot say that scripturally we cannot have “Fathers” or call men Fathers.
As far as the Pope and Priest, that is for the Lord to judge, while I agree that no man should be called “Holy Father”, I think that spiritual Fatherhood is not merely giving someone a title but is a matter of relationship between the one who is a “Spiritual Son” and those who have espoused them to Christ and become mentors and spiritual leaders as Paul was to those he espoused to Christ.
I have several mentors in my life that I consider Fathers in my faith merely because they have played a tremendous role in my growth in the Lord. And I respect them as I would my earthly Father and in some cases even more so.
I meant Romans 11 to clarify the relationship of the gentile believer to the Hebrews.
WJ
If someone is your spiritual father how can they not be called holy? Is someone not worthy to be called holy be your spiritual father?If your claim is this person can be called father and you consider such a person cleansed of all sin through Christ how is it they would not be your holy father?
I am just saying why not be hot or cold for what you believe, why be luke warm?
If I were to call a Man “Father” spiritually he had better be holy. Personally I say that God is my only spiritual Father but if you have spiritual fathers and lords this may be more suitable and comfortable to you at this time.
The word “saint” means “holy one”.Better cut out calling anyone a saint. Just keeping you consistent.
No. There have been many holy fathers through the ages. Thank God for that. They haven't all been popes either.
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,12:58) Hi BD: I will not be a Bishop or oversee anyone unless God puts me in that position.
Love in Christ,
Marty
So basically are you waiting for the heavens to part and a voice to speak to everyone?Or…are you going to be installed in a bishopric by a man?
And if by a man, how do you KNOW that man has authority from Christ to do so?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:39) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,12:58) Hi BD: I will not be a Bishop or oversee anyone unless God puts me in that position.
Love in Christ,
Marty
So basically are you waiting for the heavens to part and a voice to speak to everyone?Or…are you going to be installed in a bishopric by a man?
And if by a man, how do you KNOW that man has authority from Christ to do so?
are you a saint?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:39) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,12:58) Hi BD: I will not be a Bishop or oversee anyone unless God puts me in that position.
Love in Christ,
Marty
So basically are you waiting for the heavens to part and a voice to speak to everyone?Or…are you going to be installed in a bishopric by a man?
And if by a man, how do you KNOW that man has authority from Christ to do so?
CA,strange tatics you have, are you trying to place doubt in his walk, (and reading Marty's posts, you will not succeed) tisk tisk CA, you actually sound a little jealous.
don't be sad CA, because your church did not call you to a higher position, just makes you one of us common folk. it will be alright.
and should you not encourage a brother, pray for him that what is the Father's will he will hear?
Marty is one of the few that have the gentle spirit on this forum, in his teachings and post, he will be well deserving to receive this position, and many will be blessed to have him serve, Father willing, and if not, he will bless others as he has blessed the ones on this board.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:39) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,12:58) Hi BD: I will not be a Bishop or oversee anyone unless God puts me in that position.
Love in Christ,
Marty
So basically are you waiting for the heavens to part and a voice to speak to everyone?Or…are you going to be installed in a bishopric by a man?
And if by a man, how do you KNOW that man has authority from Christ to do so?
Hi CA:I don't have any idea how He will put me in that position. Did not Joseph go from the prison to the castle in one day?
Surely, if He said it, He is able to perform what He said, and I believe Him.
He also warned me that the spirit of Saul who would try to kill my faith in His promises.
Love in Christ,
MartyPope: Papa/Father
Papacy
Sancta Sedes: Holy See, Apostolic See
Head of State
Annuario Pontificio: Bishop of Rome, Vicarius Christi (supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction), Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme (pontifex) Pontiff of the Universal Church (High Priest), Servus Servorum Dei.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,16:30) Pope: Papa/Father Papacy
Sancta Sedes: Holy See, Apostolic See
Head of State
Annuario Pontificio: Bishop of Rome, Vicarius Christi (supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction), Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme (pontifex) Pontiff of the Universal Church (High Priest), Servus Servorum Dei.
I agree with you but so many have a polytheistic consciousness as most gentiles have always had and even most Jews have always been polytheistic minded worshiping the golden calf and other things isn't it possible that some need the Pope because they can see the Pope or for that matter others who help the polytheistic mind think about devotion to God?Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 17 2009,13:46) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:39) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,12:58) Hi BD: I will not be a Bishop or oversee anyone unless God puts me in that position.
Love in Christ,
Marty
So basically are you waiting for the heavens to part and a voice to speak to everyone?Or…are you going to be installed in a bishopric by a man?
And if by a man, how do you KNOW that man has authority from Christ to do so?
are you a saint?
A saint in the making.
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