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Quote Yes you could be right. My provisional conclusion, based on the evidence, is that you are not. –stu., page 4.
Stu. what evidence is this that you speak of? You continually say that you are ignorant of what happened at that instant and we don't know enough and that you don't really know or believe anything about it. But now that we have this “evidence” you should share it.
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Sift through all the evidence, all the accumulated knowledge that makes testable predictions, and is there even one single solitary little fact that unquestionably points to the existence of the Judeo-christian god? A single piece of concrete evidence for Jehovah / Yahweh / Whatever that it would be perverse to deny?
I conclude there is no god based on all the evidence that humans have ever collected. That does not prove there is no such god, it is simply an evidence-based conclusion.
Stuart
David
Quote And stu, I usually do respond to you. It's fun pointing out the errors. I'm still waiting for the first instance of you pointing out an error of mine.
Stuart
Hey Stu.
God judges each of us on our lives.
The scenario now is that God has given us all some license to do what we want to a degree.
If we choose God, then we have truly chosen him. If we choose him not, then that is what we want.
If God zapped us all up into the highest realm of his Heaven, I am sure that most would want to serve him if they saw the glory of the age to come. But God gives us are real chance to serve him or reject him without the bias or pressure.
Similarly when you are rich and doing well, you have heaps of friends. When it all goes down the gurgler and you loose everything, do you think that you would have the same amount of friends?
A true friend sticks around even in tough times.
This world is tough for those that are friends of God.
This world is the true test of ones character and whether we love God or not. Non-belief in God is the result of no respect or love for God taken to the extreme.
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 03 2008,01:00) Sift through all the evidence, all the accumulated knowledge that makes testable predictions, and is there even one single solitary little fact that unquestionably points to the existence of the Judeo-christian god? A single piece of concrete evidence for Jehovah / Yahweh / Whatever that it would be perverse to deny? I conclude there is no god based on all the evidence that humans have ever collected. That does not prove there is no such god, it is simply an evidence-based conclusion.
Stuart
Stu, God isn't made of concrete.God is eternal. How are you going to see an eternal God?
How can a single cell animal see the Elephant that he lives on?
Imagine you are a single cell animal for a minute saying, I don't believe in elephants because there is no evidence and I have never seen one. When an elephant comes to me and shakes my hand, then I will believe?
Do you see the dilema?
Obviously experience with God is not as you would think. He is a Spirit (i.e., not physical) and he is eternal. How can you expect to quantify God using finite scientific utensils?
t8
OK. So there is no piece of evidence that should give me any reason at all to doubt my scientific conclusion that there is no god. I appreciate you acknowledging that. Of course it blows your design argument out of the water but that was dead long ago anyway.
I did not say that god is made out of concrete. You could remove that word from my previous post and it would not actually change the intent of the question.
Single-cell animals have neither eyes nor brains for processing sensory information of any kind. They 'know' of the elephant because it will be keeping them warm, which changes the rate of their biochemical reactions.
I do not see the dilemma of the bacterium shaking an elephant by the hand and being surprised. Is that your evidence for a god?
I expect to be able to quantify anything that has a measurable physical effect of any kind. If your god has no measurable effect then why call it god? You have not stated evidence yet you make three claims about the nature of god, ie: male, eternal and exists as a spirit, yet with no evidence for any of them. You see the dilemma of the christian who wants respectability for his beliefs yet cannot provide the evidence truth claims demand. you are definitely a material being and the operation of your brain is a perfectly good explanation for your experiences. That needs to be put in the context of the complete lack of a definition of the word spirit as used in christian mythology. The only respectable thing to do is state that your belief in god is your opinion based on no facts and that you could be wrong about it.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,07:36) OK. So there is no piece of evidence that should give me any reason at all to doubt my scientific conclusion that there is no god. I appreciate you acknowledging that. Of course it blows your design argument out of the water but that was dead long ago anyway.
Correct. You can't put God under a microscope or see him in a telescope. You can only see his works and if you are fortunate, his glory. The incredible universe is testimony to his work, so all men have no excuse.But for those who seek, they can find that God is love.
But to those that don't want to believe, then they make up there own meanings and choose whatever fairytale they think sounds the coolest.
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,07:36) Single-cell animals have neither eyes nor brains for processing sensory information of any kind. They 'know' of the elephant because it will be keeping them warm, which changes the rate of their biochemical reactions.
Exactly the point. Just because they cannot see or comprehend, doesn't mean that what they can't see or comprehend doesn't exist. 'This seems to be your argument regarding the existence of God.
So do you think it may be possible that you to are lacking in certain senses that stops you from comprehending and seeing things beyond your natural experience?
t8
Quote Correct. You can't put God under a microscope or see him in a telescope. You can only see his works and if you are fortunate, his glory. The incredible universe is testimony to his work, so all men have no excuse.
You want it both ways though. In your arguments god is both ubiquitous and inscrutable. If the universe is the work of a god, it is not the god and works described in the Judeo-christian mythology.All men have no excuse for what?
Quote But for those who seek, they can find that God is love.
Are they particularly convinced by his loving smiting of innocent people?Quote But to those that don't want to believe, then they make up there own meanings and choose whatever fairytale they think sounds the coolest.
I am flattered again that you copy my language, but the fairytale metaphor really doesn’t stretch to natural science, at least not when used by someone who is so ignorant of how science works and what it achieves.Quote Just because they cannot see or comprehend, doesn't mean that what they can't see or comprehend doesn't exist.
The bacteria have evidence as I explained. They just can’t interpret it. With imaginary gods we have the capacity to interpret but no evidence.Quote This seems to be your argument regarding the existence of God. So do you think it may be possible that you to are lacking in certain senses that stops you from comprehending and seeing things beyond your natural experience?
I am completely lacking in senses that allow me to see beyond my experience. That is why we have invented scientific instruments. Our experience as humans is the sum total of all the evidence we can collect by whatever means.My conclusion is that of all the experience, the evidence, the facts not one gives an unquestionable indication that there is a deity at work. I cannot disprove it but I claim that it is a perverse thing to believe because there is no reason to.
Unless you can give me one fact that is uniquely explained by your god. Which as what I asked before.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,21:31) You want it both ways though. In your arguments god is both ubiquitous and inscrutable. If the universe is the work of a god, it is not the god and works described in the Judeo-christian mythology.
Not sure what you are getting at, but suffice to say that just because you cannot see something directly doesn't mean that you can't see it. There are different types of sight. External sight and inner sight.e.g., just because you can't see other galaxies with your own eyes, didn't make them not exist. Obviously with the aid of telescopes we can see billions of other galaxies just as amazing as our one.
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,21:31) All men have no excuse for what?
No excuse to deny God. The universe declares his glory.You see a house and you know that it has a builder.
God is the builder of all.
Of course to deny this is folly.
Just one fact. You'd think it would be an easy question if it is all so obviously the act of a deity.
Stuart
I deny god on the very simple premise that no matter how hard we look there is not a single reason to believe in that god over any other one, or to believe in any gods at all. I don't need an excuse for making that conclusion.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,21:31) Are they particularly convinced by his loving smiting of innocent people?
Can a good person prune a tree or a vineyard?Human genealogy is a type of tree that God has pruned from time to time, in order to get rid of the branches that don't produce fruit.
A God who didn't love people would just forget about it and let it rot.
The righteous will inherit the earth because God will cut off the wicked. Similarly we prune trees so that they will grow better.
God is righteous and he is love. He cares for humanity. He doesn't want the wicked branch to grow.
Would you want wicked people to love in your home?
God loves us, because he wants to give creation to the righteous.
Psalm 1:6
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.Proverbs 10:11
The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life, but violence overwhelms the mouth of the wicked.Proverbs 3:33
The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous.The wicked are under a curse Stu.
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,21:45) Just one fact. You'd think it would be an easy question if it is all so obviously the act of a deity. Stuart
Stu, just one fact that someone or someones built the house that you live in? If you know who built it, then give me one fact that someone built your neighbor's house. If the house is the act of a person, you'd think it would be an easy question if it is all so obviously the act of a person.Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,21:49) I deny god on the very simple premise that no matter how hard we look there is not a single reason to believe in that god over any other one, or to believe in any gods at all. I don't need an excuse for making that conclusion. Stuart
Oh right. So would you deny that a man built your next door neighbor's house if there was a dispute about which man it was?Yeah right Stu, sounds really logical.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,21:58) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,21:45) Just one fact. You'd think it would be an easy question if it is all so obviously the act of a deity. Stuart
Stu, just one fact that someone or someones built the house that you live in? If you know who built it, then give me one fact that someone built your neighbor's house. If the house is the act of a person, you'd think it would be an easy question if it is all so obviously the act of a person.
The council website lists the decade of construction. By human beings. Builders generally. There are enough photographs of houses being built by people to reasonably generalise the pronciple.One fact that unquestionably points to a deity?
Stuart
Well what would you assume if it turned out that there was an ancient but solidly constructed house on Mars complete with 10 rooms and some furniture.
Even though there was currently no life, plans, or other dwellings, to make that same generalisation, would you think that the house was built by an intelligence of some kind? Or would you write off that possibility?
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