Born Again–What is it's purpose?

[charity]

Convince a man pride is not born again of God?
Pride has deaf ears?
It has respect of persons
Wisdom fears God and questions for understanding to depart evil

[david]

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Ephesians 2:8-9 states: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Right. It is because of God's undeserved kindness, grace, and not that we have anything owing to us. This scripture does not say that someone knows they are saved. It says that it is by grace that a person is saved. You are not saved now, for what if you for whatever reason decided to go against Jesus. He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. You are not at the end…of your life, or this system of things.

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HE THAT BELIEVETH ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED:

Yes, my point before was: I just wonder if the people that will be saying “lord, lord” believe in the Lord. What do you think? Do those who are found saying “lord, lord,” believing in the Lord?
In that scripture, Jesus next emphasized the importance of doing the will of God.

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The above scriptures tell me that unless someone has the Spirit of Christ he is not a Christian.

People must be born again to go to heaven in order to rule with Christ Jesus. But not all need to do this.

Rev. 7:9, 10, 17: “After these things [after the apostle John heard the number of those who would be “born again,” those who would make up spiritual Israel and would be with Christ in heaven; compare Romans 2:28, 29 and Galatians 3:26-29] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ . . . ‘The Lamb [Jesus Christ], who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.’”

After listing many pre-Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: “All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” The pre-Christian persons who had faith, then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven.)

Is it possible for a person to have God’s spirit and yet not be “born again”?

Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be “born again”]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press.”—Matt. 11:11, 12.

The spirit of Jehovah was “operative” upon David and “spoke” by him (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was “born again.” There was no need for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.”

94, I've found that what people mean by being 'born again' is not always the same. Would you tell me what it means to you?

When Jesus spoke about being born again he said that it was necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, to be part of God’s Kingdom, his heavenly government. (John 3:5)

The Bible also shows that many people who do the will of God will live here on earth, as happy subjects of that Kingdom. (Matt. 6:10; Ps. 37:29)

Something else,
1 CORINTHIANS 10:12
“Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.”

We do not want to be over confident about our position, thinking that God owes us anything. As the scripture says, it is by grace that salvation is ours.

[charity]

Seeking To come to the knowledge of travailing in new birth and born again

Follow Jesus
To Be transfigured

My ears hear this….

Travailing in new birth is to announce that your personal judgment has commenced
Judgment begins at the house of God
So you may be placed in heavenly places born of God
Travailing in new birth is the suffering of searching the heart in all truth of what can found within us
Having the spirit bearing witness with our spirit to remove iniquity by the truth setting us free
The will is to be subdued; the will is capable of performing good works; but they shall be in vain, working to receive what cannot be given by anything we do of ourselves.
As John the Baptist was Elijah this is suffering to stand in faith coming to knowledge of being born again to do Gods work with confidence
I would understand that Christ was just like us?
Jesus suffered and travailed to understand and believe born of God against parents conceiving him; being the seed of his father David and not Joseph.
40 days in the wilderness; waiting for manifestations from God that it was not his own will that was imagining his service he was to perform on his return
Being transfigured on the mount.
Glorified with the spirit descending on him from above.

Untransformed Men have taken on quickening the dead to born again as a law of works
They refuse judgment now?

I have a love of the truth, and I am happy to receive it as what ever it is from the spirit or messanger from God; I am not sitting wanting it to be what I think it should be, So whatever I need to do or hear to obtain righteousness I will gladly receive and suffer for.
Even if begins with just being honest about myself in my heart.

charity

[NickHassan]

Hi c,
Indeed
“Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

[charity]

blessings Nick

Beginning and end of judgment; Suffering of the present time to see the glory which shall be revealed in us; when the adoption has wit in patience sown in weackness raised in power

Rom 8:18 ¶ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

I am sure God dose not desire un transformed people with confidence in self preaching without understanding on how to be transformed

We should share in our suffering understanding and being aware and humbled to the fact that all are made subject to vanity.
With hope and faith sown in this weakness we shall be raised in power also after patience and suffering.

Charity

[942767]

Hi David:

Hebrews 1:1 states: “God, who at sundry times and divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets, …”.

Those that had the Holy Ghost were the prophets and had the Holy Ghost because God used them to speak as the above scripture states to the Fathers or as in John the Baptist's case to the Nation of Israel.

Those in the Old Testament who were striving to obey God were not born again because the sacrifice for their sins had not yet been made.  When those under the Law of Moses sinned, they offered the blood of animals to atone for their sins, “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is to say, not of this building; neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered into the holy place having obtained eternal redemption for us.  For the blood of bulls and of goats, and of the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance”. (Hebrews 9:11-15)

As stated above, the blood of animals did not wash away the sins of the people under the Old Testament, but when the sacrifice that Jesus made for all of us, their sins were washed away, and so, when Jesus comes for the church, they will be raised again from the dead along with those who have died in Christ after his resurrrection with a spiritual body.  In addition, those who are alive who are in the body of Christ will receive a spiritual body and both those who were raised from the dead and those who are alive in Christ will caught up together to meet Jesus in the air.  (1 Thes. 4:16-17)

You ask:

94, I've found that what people mean by being 'born again' is not always the same.  Would you tell me what it means to you?

I have already showed you what it meant to be born again on a couple of occasions, but I'll repeat it for you.  It means that you have died to sin, and God has raised you from the dead (separation from because of sin) by His Spirit, just as he raised Jesus from the dead.  It means that God has forgiven you all of your sins and washed them away by the blood of Jesus.  (I don't see why any one would want to resist this David.  God loves you and so do I and I am trying to help you see the truth.)

First comes the born again experience where God is now the Father of your Spirit having forgiven you all of your past sins, and then the good works not vice versa.  If not for the blood of Jesus none of us would be saved, because even after we are born again we make mistakes. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them”. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in the trespasses and sins: Wherein time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind: and were by nature the children of wrath, ever as others.  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ. (by grace ye are saved:)”. (Ephesians 2:1-5)

Again, the following scripture shows that you are not a Christian unless you are born again.  “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.  NOW IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS”. (Rom. 8:9)

You also quote the following:

Something else,
1 CORINTHIANS 10:12
“Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall

This scripture just reminds Christians that altough we are striving to obey God's commandments, it possible for us to be tempted and sin, and it is, but if I do, I will repent and ask God to forgive me.  I am not practicing sin wilfully, and so, I know that if I do make a mistake God will forgive me when I repent.  It is wonderful to know that I am not condemned. “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.” (John 8:36)

“There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.  He that feareth is not made perfect in love”. (1 John 4:18)

And I am curious, if your sins have not been forgiven, what is the gospel (good news) that the JWs preach.

God Bless

[david]

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And I am curious, if your sins have not been forgiven, what is the gospel (good news) that the JWs preach.

Who says they haven't.

Another question:

In your opinion do some go to heaven and why?

One more:
What is the kingdom of God and what is it's purpose?

I should mention that I will respond to your post, but don't really have time right nwo.

[942767]

Quote (david @ Feb. 28 2007,01:31)

Quote And I am curious, if your sins have not been forgiven, what is the gospel (good news) that the JWs preach. Who says they haven't. Another question:   In your opinion do some go to heaven and why? One more: What is the kingdom of God and what is it's purpose? I should mention that I will respond to your post, but don't really have time right nwo.

Well, have they?  I asked: “David, if you should die today, are you confident that you are saved or in other words that your sins are forgiven?”  I didn't get a reply from you.

Anyway, my purpose is not to condemn you, but help you to see the truth so that if your sins are not forgiven, they can be.

The authority is the Word of God, and I have shown you by the scriptures that if you have not been born again you are dead in your sins, and have not been raised again from the dead by the Spirit of God.  

And having given you the scriptures relative to this, then I have fulfilled my obligation to you, and if you wish to continue to believe that only the 144,000 will be born again then, God has given you a free will, go ahead.

The other questions about heaven and the Kingdom of God I have already answered.

The purpose of the kingdom is to glorify God by our life or by our death. (Rom. 15:8-11)

[NickHassan]

Quote (charity @ Feb. 28 2007,00:31)

blessings Nick Beginning and end of judgment; Suffering of the present time to see the glory which shall be revealed in us; when the adoption has wit in patience sown in weackness raised in power Rom 8:18 ¶ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, I am sure God dose not desire un transformed people with confidence in self preaching without understanding on how to be transformed We should share in our suffering understanding and being aware and humbled to the fact that all are made subject to vanity. With hope and faith sown in this weakness we shall be raised in power also after patience and suffering. Charity

Hi C,
The mature sons of God are expressions of aspects of Christ in flesh, transformed in the inner man of heart and mind into Christ.
As Paul said it was no longer he that lived but Christ that lived in him and his words expressed and actions fully showed that,
Satan must have panicked to see the one dead arisen in many more each day.

[david]

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The authority is the Word of God, and I have shown you by the scriptures that if you have not been born again you are dead in your sins

I must have missed that. But I should read your second last post again. Which scriptures are you referring to? Please just list the scriptures.

I asked this question:

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One more: What is the kingdom of God and what is it's purpose?

I think the answer is an extraordinary relevent one, since we are told:

John 3:5 (New International Version)
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

We are told that we must be born again…WHY? Those who are to be a part of the heavenly kingdom need to be born again.
I think this is an extremely relevent question.
But your answer to me was:

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The other questions about heaven and the Kingdom of God I have already answered. The purpose of the kingdom is to glorify God by our life or by our death. (Rom. 15:8-11)

Are there kings in this kingdom? Are there priests? Judges? What do those who make up this kingdom do? What is their purpose in that kingdom?

Ok, back to your second last post:

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In addition, those who are alive who are in the body of Christ will receive a spiritual body

Yes, my point exactly. This is why they need to be born again.
This is the reason: Physical bodies cannot inherit God's kingdom so those who make up that heavenly kingdom must be born again.

1 PETER 1:23
“For YOU have been given a NEW BIRTH, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”

1 CORINTHIANS 15:50
“However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”

Ah, there's that kingdom again. Flesh and blood, physcial bodies cannot inherit God's heavenly kingdom. These ones must go to heaven to remain with Christ and they will always be with him.

BUT, not all are part of this special arrangement that Jehovah set up.

Maybe this scripture will help:
Romans 8:19-21:
“For the eager expectation of the creation [one group] is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God [another group]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”

The scriptures speak of a new heaven (those who make up the heavenly kingdom) AND a new earth (the meek who inherit the earth)

These ones, who don't make up that government, and don't go to heaven to be with Christ, have no need to be born again.

Here's a different translation:
John 3:5 (Young's Literal Translation)
Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to ENTER INTO THE REIGN OF GOD;

We need not all enter God's kingdom (governement run by a king–Jesus and his joint heirs)
I am not a part of the Canadian government. Yet, I live under it, in Canada.
If God chooses to have certain ones to rule over us, and judge us, how loving an arrangement that is–We can't say: You don't know, how can you judge me? Rather, all these ones have lived on earth, including Jesus and know what we face.

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It means that God has forgiven you all of your sins and washed them away by the blood of Jesus.

REVELATION 1:5-6
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”

REVELATION 5:9-10
“. . .and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.””

REVELATION 7:14
“So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
In verse 4, we see that 144000 are sealed. Then in verse 9, we see that “after these things” a great crowd is mentioned, out of all tribes and peoples and nations and tongues.
The 144,000, the body of Christ, are those who recieve the kingdom and who are to rule with Christ.
REVELATION 5:10
“and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.””

REVELATION 20:6
“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”

If they rule with Christ, who do they rule over?

Those on the earth, the ones who don't go to heaven to be in the heavenly kingdom, but those righteous who inherit the earth. (ps 37:29; mat 5:5)
Again, I say, these who do not enter that government which is in heaven have no need to be born again.

John 3:5 (New American Standard Bible)
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

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Again, the following scripture shows that you are not a Christian unless you are born again. “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. NOW IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS”. (Rom. 8:9)

ROMANS 8:9
“However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him.”

You say that this scripture shows that you are not a Christian unless you are born again, or have Christ's spirit.

REVELATION 5:9
“. . .“You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

I believe that the ones who belong to christ and God are those who have been bought for this special purpose, to rule as kings with Christ.
********

[chosenone]

DETAILS OF THE NEW BIRTH

The new birth is crystallized in the familiar words: “you must be born anew” (John 3:7). Our elaboration of it must be sought either in the words of the Lord Jesus, of those who heard Him, or in the Hebrew revelation. It was a matter which Nicodemus ought to have known and taught in Israel, for the prophets had much to say regarding it. Actually, it is the new covenant stated in a few words. What the new covenant brings to Israel is the measure of the significance of the new birth.
A detail of the words “you must be born anew,” which is usually ignored, is that the word “you” is plural. This is not the only case where the plural pronoun is of importance in guiding understanding. The plural speaks of the nation of Israel and not of individuals. An example is seen in Matthew 5:14, “You are the light of the world.” So also the words of John 3:7 indicate that it is Israel’s sons as a whole, as a nation, which must be born anew. The prophet Isaiah speaks of a nation born at one time (Isa.66:8).

Blessings.

[chosenone]

DETAILS OF THE NEW BIRTH

The new birth is crystallized in the familiar words: “you must be born anew” (John 3:7). Our elaboration of it must be sought either in the words of the Lord Jesus, of those who heard Him, or in the Hebrew revelation. It was a matter which Nicodemus ought to have known and taught in Israel, for the prophets had much to say regarding it. Actually, it is the new covenant stated in a few words. What the new covenant brings to Israel is the measure of the significance of the new birth.
A detail of the words “you must be born anew,” which is usually ignored, is that the word “you” is plural. This is not the only case where the plural pronoun is of importance in guiding understanding. The plural speaks of the nation of Israel and not of individuals. An example is seen in Matthew 5:14, “You are the light of the world.” So also the words of John 3:7 indicate that it is Israel’s sons as a whole, as a nation, which must be born anew. The prophet Isaiah speaks of a nation born at one time (Isa.66:8). See Hebrews 8:8-12, previously prophesied in Jer.31:31. the new covenant God will make with the Jews.

Blessings.

[chosenone]

Sorry, didn't mean to post it twice.

Blessings.

[NickHassan]

Quote (chosenone @ May 21 2007,18:08)

DETAILS OF THE NEW BIRTH The new birth is crystallized in the familiar words: “you must be born anew” (John 3:7). Our elaboration of it must be sought either in the words of the Lord Jesus, of those who heard Him, or in the Hebrew revelation. It was a matter which Nicodemus ought to have known and taught in Israel, for the prophets had much to say regarding it. Actually, it is the new covenant stated in a few words. What the new covenant brings to Israel is the measure of the significance of the new birth. A detail of the words “you must be born anew,” which is usually ignored, is that the word “you” is plural. This is not the only case where the plural pronoun is of importance in guiding understanding. The plural speaks of the nation of Israel and not of individuals. An example is seen in Matthew 5:14, “You are the light of the world.” So also the words of John 3:7 indicate that it is Israel’s sons as a whole, as a nation, which must be born anew. The prophet Isaiah speaks of a nation born at one time (Isa.66:8).  See Hebrews 8:8-12, previously prophesied in Jer.31:31. the new covenant God will make with the Jews. Blessings.

Hi Co,
Actually the new birth binds Jew and Gentile into one body, the body of Christ, enlivened by His Spirit unto eternity.

[942767]

Hi Chosenone:

You say:
The prophet Isaiah speaks of a nation born at one time (Isa.66:8)

My understanding of this is that the blood of animals did not take wash away the sins of those who were striving to obey God under the Law.  As we know the High Priest entered into the Holy of holies on the day of atonement with blood for his sins and for the sins of the Nation of Israel.  This was repeated year after year.  But when the Lamb of God the perfect sacrifice was offered, Jesus entered into the very presence of God in heaven and not in the tabernacle on earth.  When he did this all of the sins of the Nation of Israel who were striving to obey God under the Law were washed away. I believe that this what the prophet Isaiah means by a whole nation being born at one time.

Please see Hebrews Ch9 relative to this.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Interesting.
Is 66
5Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

6A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

10Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:”

And Lk 19
” 26For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. “

And Zech 12
“Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.'

So I think it relates to the repentance of Isarel at the return of Christ

[942767]

Hi Nick:

You say relative to your understanding of a nation being born at one time:

So I think it relates to the repentance of Isarel at the return of Christ.

Please elaborate on what you mean by “the repentance of Israel at the return of Christ”.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
The Zech 12 verse aligned with Rom 9-11.

[Author]

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